Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[sotisoti]

 
More than 90% in devs hand, that's a lot even if you dont follow the cryptospace financial structure

This is like a standard IPO except the rules of distribution are slightly tweaked as this is a long duration IPO this gives plenty of time for investors to buy in so no one can complain about missing it if it has been available to buy not for 1 months but for over 8 months now and possibly even more than another 5+ months

It has been noted before , these coins are representations of tokens that will be converted at the time the economical aspect of tau-chain is implemented . Unsold coins will be destroyed if they are  not sold

I see a problem there.

Obviously every coin is gonna be sold because we gonna live the next btc adoption during the next 5 months, and that means millions on new people coming to the cryptos.

the problem is that your "institutional" IPO (only 10k lots) will have a cheaper price than the market and some wealthy pockets will buy from you and sell in the market.

Let's imagine:
In one month:
500$     = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00044btc = 440,000sat
1,000$  = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00022btc = 220,000sat
5,000$ = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.0044btc    =   44,000sat
10,000$ = 1btc-> 22cents$ = 0.0022btc    =   22,000sat


As you can imagine if the price of btc goes up until 1,000$-10,000$, the price of AGRS will follow the uptrend path.

AGRS Free market price (up) vs "institutional IPO" (down)


If you agree with this situation I would like to reserve all the stake on sale. I'll pay it, once btc achieves 3,000$/btc

If you wanna fix it, I would lock the price of the pre-sale to btc not to $.

500$     = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00044btc = 440,000sat, did you mean 44,000 satoshis?

[blacktea286]

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

[Rw13enlib88]

 
More than 90% in devs hand, that's a lot even if you dont follow the cryptospace financial structure

This is like a standard IPO except the rules of distribution are slightly tweaked as this is a long duration IPO this gives plenty of time for investors to buy in so no one can complain about missing it if it has been available to buy not for 1 months but for over 8 months now and possibly even more than another 5+ months

It has been noted before , these coins are representations of tokens that will be converted at the time the economical aspect of tau-chain is implemented . Unsold coins will be destroyed if they are  not sold

I see a problem there.

Obviously every coin is gonna be sold because we gonna live the next btc adoption during the next 5 months, and that means millions on new people coming to the cryptos.

the problem is that your "institutional" IPO (only 10k lots) will have a cheaper price than the market and some wealthy pockets will buy from you and sell in the market.

Let's imagine:
In one month:
500$     = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00044btc = 440,000sat
1,000$  = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00022btc = 220,000sat
5,000$ = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.000044btc    =   44,000sat
10,000$ = 1btc-> 22cents$ = 0.000022btc    =   22,000sat


As you can imagine if the price of btc goes up until 1,000$-10,000$, the price of AGRS will follow the uptrend path.

AGRS Free market price (up) vs "institutional IPO" (down)


If you agree with this situation I would like to reserve all the stake on sale. I'll pay it, once btc achieves 3,000$/btc

If you wanna fix it, I would lock the price of the pre-sale to btc not to $.

500$     = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00044btc = 440,000sat, did you mean 44,000 satoshis?

shit! third wrong math in this page  

Point is... it's even worst in that case
500$     = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00044btc = 44,000sat
1,000$  = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.00022btc = 22,000sat
5,000$ = 1btc --> 22cents$ = 0.000044btc  =  4,400sat
10,000$ = 1btc-> 22cents$ = 0.000022btc  =  2,200sat

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

We can guess that for 1,000$/btc all the stake will be sold and in the market, so dont need to worry about IPO

[ICOcountdown.com]

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

The point of the rolling crowdsale is that development is perpetually funded until release, it does not mean that all tokens will be sold. If it gets released soon all the rest of the tokens are burned.

[cryptodv]

I like this project, but this has to be one of the most confusing ICO's I've ever invested in. 

[jasemoney]

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

The point of the rolling crowdsale is that development is perpetually funded until release, it does not mean that all tokens will be sold. If it gets released soon all the rest of the tokens are burned.

This..
the whole page of math fuckery by Rw13enlib88 about ico pricing is idiotic.
The ico will likely continue for a long time just as it has been going on for a long time.
The ico will conclude when tau language + agoras coin development is ready for release.

im going to go on a limb and attribute the questioning to one of two things.
1. Rw13enlib88 doesnt trust ohad with all those coins.
2. Rw13enlib88 thinks bitcoin will go so high that it will be trivial to buy out the project.

1. I'd say ohad and team have been working long and hard enough to have proven they are not going to dump the tokens. reminder, it has been over 1.5 years. if you dont trust the team dont invest.
2. just because you hold bitcoin to $10k/btc and your purchasing power of a 22 cent token has increased doesnt mean it has for everyone. for example someone who wants to buy an agoras token when bitcoin costs 10k will still have to spend 22 cents.
(i do not personally believe its reasonable to think bitcoin will go back over a thousand a coin in the next few months.)

Personally I dont think the way the ico has gone so far is a good way to manage an ico. (extended time period including open market trading) but i dont have a solution and its far enough along that it doesnt matter. as ICOcountdown said, the long term rolling crowdfund allows them to continue to use funds raised for continuing development.

scenario a:
the current tokens price never takes off. it always sells for under the current ico price at the time. ohad and team work longer with less available funding. only 10% sells. 90% gets burnt

scenario b:
as a release becomes announced and testing begins maybe a la maidsafe style with MVP product etc. the interest increases, the price increases to match the sell side. at some point weeks later and a few price increases later the tokens are sold out and speculative open trading continues until full launch.

these are extreme scenarios. though its been off to a slow fundraising start this past year i think the original goal was to raise $4-6 million. there have been plenty of icos lately raise that level of money.

I like this project, but this has to be one of the most confusing ICO's I've ever invested in. 

its confusing because its been ico'ing for a long time. and raises in price every 2 weeks and it is trading on the open market for less than the ico price.

[Rw13enlib88]

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

The point of the rolling crowdsale is that development is perpetually funded until release, it does not mean that all tokens will be sold. If it gets released soon all the rest of the tokens are burned.

This..
the whole page of math fuckery by Rw13enlib88 about ico pricing is idiotic.
It's called research. Is what you do when you care for your money.

The ico will likely continue for a long time just as it has been going on for a long time. or until is all sold
The ico will conclude when tau language + agoras coin development is ready for release. or until is all sold

im going to go on a limb and attribute the questioning to one of two things.
1. Rw13enlib88 doesnt trust ohad with all those coins. False
2. Rw13enlib88 thinks bitcoin will go so high that it will be trivial to buy out the project. True

1. I'd say ohad and team have been working long and hard enough to have proven they are not going to dump the tokens. reminder, it has been over 1.5 years. if you dont trust the team dont invest.

As I've said in my first post, it's my first time in AGRS. So I didnt trust them. After the research I've see the difference between this coin and the rest of the coins.
Both in terms of ICO and project

2. just because you hold bitcoin to $10k/btc and your purchasing power of a 22 cent token has increased doesnt mean it has for everyone.

yes it has for everyone with bitcoin

 for example someone who wants to buy an agoras token when bitcoin costs 10k will still have to spend 22 cents.

That's the point, you can buy from IPO at 22cents and from market at (lets guess) 2$.
Someone will buy from IPO and sell it to the market.
Which is not that bad because the project gets funded and there are more coins available for little investors.

(i do not personally believe its reasonable to think bitcoin will go back over a thousand a coin in the next few months.)

574$ now. you just need 75% price increase to achieve 1,000$
What had happened in the last months??

Personally I dont think the way the ico has gone so far is a good way to manage an ico. (extended time period including open market trading) but i dont have a solution and its far enough along that it doesnt matter. as ICOcountdown said, the long term rolling crowdfund allows them to continue to use funds raised for continuing development.

IPO is Ok


scenario a:
the current tokens price never takes off. it always sells for under the current ico price at the time. ohad and team work longer with less available funding. only 10% sells. 90% gets burnt

I give 10% probablity to this scenario
Given the situation in stock market+economy+currencywar, Bitcoin has 90% probabilities of moving to the next adoption phase in the next months

scenario b:
as a release becomes announced and testing begins maybe a la maidsafe style with MVP product etc. the interest increases, the price increases to match the sell side. at some point weeks later and a few price increases later the tokens are sold out and speculative open trading continues until full launch.

This scenario depends on 2 things:
- MVP product launch
- Bitcoin price increment timing
I dont know any of them. Only the team knows the first thing

these are extreme scenarios. though its been off to a slow fundraising start this past year i think the original goal was to raise $4-6 million. there have been plenty of icos lately raise that level of money.


Not extreme scenarios, but not likely in my opinion
We're not in the same situation as we were in 2015
This IPO is not a wellknown IPO.
This project needs more marketing

[ohad]

I like this project, but this has to be one of the most confusing ICO's I've ever invested in. 

have a look at http://www.smithandcrown.com/event/tau-chain-agoras-presale/

[ohad]

scenario b:
as a release becomes announced and testing begins maybe a la maidsafe style with MVP product etc. the interest increases, the price increases to match the sell side. at some point weeks later and a few price increases later the tokens are sold out and speculative open trading continues until full launch.

This scenario depends on 2 things:
- MVP product launch
- Bitcoin price increment timing
I dont know any of them. Only the team knows the first thing

there can be many more good surprises. for example, the largest btc website in china (8btc) interviewed me and now translating it to chinese, while idni.org and youtube aren't even accessible from china (we made a mirror on idni.io). in the interview i also mentioned routers.space (recall the great firewall of china). interestingly there were a qq group of more than 40 chinese tau fans even before the mirror idni.io was up.
also i always get contacted by large firms. last one was Keyrus. i know that large firms have quite different state of mind than ours, but i guess over time the probability that some nice deal will be established, is high. especially after tau is ready or after partnering with another firm for the sake of the hardware side of routers.space

moreover, all along we do keep the marketing energies for after tau is ready, as now we really need the energies for dev. new materials (website, videos) are being made in the background, quite slowly as we prioritize dev

[ohad]

can see my english answers to 8btc at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ifcIcQcHBtrUsLFw0kfSA1zI_wX8SINFiujTgGxhgXc/edit?usp=sharing

[jasemoney]

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

 for example someone who wants to buy an agoras token when bitcoin costs 10k will still have to spend 22 cents.

That's the point, you can buy from IPO at 22cents and from market at (lets guess) 2$.
Someone will buy from IPO and sell it to the market.
Which is not that bad because the project gets funded and there are more coins available for little investors.

(ignore the misquoting, originals above)

thanks for your level-headed responses.

I wanted to revisit this part. as I interpret it as backwards.
Currently the market is about half the price as buying from the IPO (which is partly a sell wall on the market and available direct from the website.)
the only way that it could sell for more on the market than from IPO would cause the IPO to sell out very quickly. I assume there is a quick turnaround time from posting an investment and receiving your coins even if its not instant/automated.

[Rw13enlib88]

scenario b:
as a release becomes announced and testing begins maybe a la maidsafe style with MVP product etc. the interest increases, the price increases to match the sell side. at some point weeks later and a few price increases later the tokens are sold out and speculative open trading continues until full launch.

This scenario depends on 2 things:
- MVP product launch
- Bitcoin price increment timing
I dont know any of them. Only the team knows the first thing

there can be many more good surprises. for example, the largest btc website in china (8btc) interviewed me and now translating it to chinese, while idni.org and youtube aren't even accessible from china (we made a mirror on idni.io). in the interview i also mentioned routers.space (recall the great firewall of china). interestingly there were a qq group of more than 40 chinese tau fans even before the mirror idni.io was up.
also i always get contacted by large firms. last one was Keyrus. i know that large firms have quite different state of mind than ours, but i guess over time the probability that some nice deal will be established, is high. especially after tau is ready or after partnering with another firm for the sake of the hardware side of routers.space

moreover, all along we do keep the marketing energies for after tau is ready, as now we really need the energies for dev. new materials (website, videos) are being made in the background, quite slowly as we prioritize dev

can see my english answers to 8btc at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ifcIcQcHBtrUsLFw0kfSA1zI_wX8SINFiujTgGxhgXc/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for the update and for the transparency!

Getting China involved is wow, that's really big news!!

But I'm foreseeing a little problem for the chinese people.

If there are 40 people interested in AGRS but non of them has contacted you for buying (i guessing this) can be for (i'm also guessing the reasons  ):
A) Communication problems
B)Lack of trust in receiving their coins from dev 
C) Lack of trust in western exchanges (even if 2 cofounders of bittrex are chinese (this is the last info i've got, not sure if it's true))
D) Lack of info in chinese to completely understand the project
E) ...... [complete if you have any other reason]

For this reasons, involving 8btc solves all this problems.
A) No communication problem between exchange-investor
B) No need to trust dev to send them coins
C) No western exchange involved
D) 8btc can provide info about the coin/project


Anyway, no matter if those problems exist or no, the point is that once AGRS is in 8btc:
There are no coins in 8btc!!!     

We are the ones who have to send coins to 8btc!!

So get ready guys, because you have a big business oportunity in front of your face!!! 

Why making arbitrage is good for AGRS:
1) The price in all exchanges is the same
2) Chinese investors can buy AGRS at almost same price as westerns (price+commission)
3) Once price exceeds the IPO price, the project starts getting funded
4) The trader makes some money

What can happen if we dont provide liquidity?
Bittrex price:   20.000sat
IPO price:        40.000sat
8btc price:    350.000sat

So, get ready cos you'll have to buy from Bittrex to sell in 8btc to provide liquidity to chinese investors.

[Rw13enlib88]

Should be stopped as soon as possible IPO

 for example someone who wants to buy an agoras token when bitcoin costs 10k will still have to spend 22 cents.

That's the point, you can buy from IPO at 22cents and from market at (lets guess) 2$.
Someone will buy from IPO and sell it to the market.
Which is not that bad because the project gets funded and there are more coins available for little investors.

(ignore the misquoting, originals above)

thanks for your level-headed responses.

I wanted to revisit this part. as I interpret it as backwards.
Currently the market is about half the price as buying from the IPO (which is partly a sell wall on the market and available direct from the website.)
the only way that it could sell for more on the market than from IPO would cause the IPO to sell out very quickly. I assume there is a quick turnaround time from posting an investment and receiving your coins even if its not instant/automated.

Selon my maths (made with excel  ), including the posible bulk with 5%off,10%off,15%off until 50%, the IPO wont last till 800$/btc

Also can happen, that investor will hold them and dont dump them on the market. That will help to end faster the IPO

[Rw13enlib88]

so you are saying dev still holds 94% of AGRSs?

1) How is the coin distributed?
Zennet                                 -%
(Presale?/Bittrex?)             50%
X                                           x%
2) How many coins are still at sale and at what price?
3) Any financial institution between investors?

so far ~7M tokens were sold. if you want to track down how many sold in different milestones, see the blog on idni.org. in general there is no distinction between buyers on zennet's time to tau's time. presale is for all tokens (namely 97% not counting the "premine"). to see the latest price calculations cf the end of the "project roadmap" blogpost.
i didn't understand the last question

sorry I forgot to explain the third question.

I meant institutional investors. Banks, Big Companies, Goverments, etc

[ohad]

let's begin from the beginning: what is tau and how can it possibly be made?

[ICOcountdown.com]

scenario b:
as a release becomes announced and testing begins maybe a la maidsafe style with MVP product etc. the interest increases, the price increases to match the sell side. at some point weeks later and a few price increases later the tokens are sold out and speculative open trading continues until full launch.

This scenario depends on 2 things:
- MVP product launch
- Bitcoin price increment timing
I dont know any of them. Only the team knows the first thing

there can be many more good surprises. for example, the largest btc website in china (8btc) interviewed me and now translating it to chinese, while idni.org and youtube aren't even accessible from china (we made a mirror on idni.io). in the interview i also mentioned routers.space (recall the great firewall of china). interestingly there were a qq group of more than 40 chinese tau fans even before the mirror idni.io was up.
also i always get contacted by large firms. last one was Keyrus. i know that large firms have quite different state of mind than ours, but i guess over time the probability that some nice deal will be established, is high. especially after tau is ready or after partnering with another firm for the sake of the hardware side of routers.space

moreover, all along we do keep the marketing energies for after tau is ready, as now we really need the energies for dev. new materials (website, videos) are being made in the background, quite slowly as we prioritize dev

can see my english answers to 8btc at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ifcIcQcHBtrUsLFw0kfSA1zI_wX8SINFiujTgGxhgXc/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for the update and for the transparency!

Getting China involved is wow, that's really big news!!

But I'm foreseeing a little problem for the chinese people.

If there are 40 people interested in AGRS but non of them has contacted you for buying (i guessing this) can be for (i'm also guessing the reasons  ):
A) Communication problems
B)Lack of trust in receiving their coins from dev 
C) Lack of trust in western exchanges (even if 2 cofounders of bittrex are chinese (this is the last info i've got, not sure if it's true))
D) Lack of info in chinese to completely understand the project
E) ...... [complete if you have any other reason]

For this reasons, involving 8btc solves all this problems.
A) No communication problem between exchange-investor
B) No need to trust dev to send them coins
C) No western exchange involved
D) 8btc can provide info about the coin/project


Anyway, no matter if those problems exist or no, the point is that once AGRS is in 8btc:
There are no coins in 8btc!!!     

We are the ones who have to send coins to 8btc!!

So get ready guys, because you have a big business oportunity in front of your face!!! 

Why making arbitrage is good for AGRS:
1) The price in all exchanges is the same
2) Chinese investors can buy AGRS at almost same price as westerns (price+commission)
3) Once price exceeds the IPO price, the project starts getting funded
4) The trader makes some money

What can happen if we dont provide liquidity?
Bittrex price:   20.000sat
IPO price:        40.000sat
8btc price:    350.000sat

So, get ready cos you'll have to buy from Bittrex to sell in 8btc to provide liquidity to chinese investors.

You are missing the point that anything under Crowdfund price has big limits, once thats taken from markets it will acclimatize to regular price.

[Rw13enlib88]

You are missing the point that anything under Crowdfund price has big limits, once thats taken from markets it will acclimatize to regular price.

Not sure what you mean with
"big limits"  big amount of AGRS?
"acclimatize to regular price"   same price in all exchanges+IPO?

[Indal0]

coins dumped in bittrex are from devs ? or investors ? if investors why they are selling to cheap.

[ohad]

coins dumped in bittrex are from devs ? or investors ? if investors why they are selling to cheap.

dev never sells in prices lower than listed in www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

[vhong]

coins dumped in bittrex are from devs ? or investors ? if investors why they are selling to cheap.

No one knows for sure, but I think they are not cheap as you thought if btc price will continue to go up at a fast-paced.