Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[qob48513]

If I am correct, this project is meaningfully extensible only if it is possible to communicate with exterior world other than tau-chain itself, such as www.
But the problem is, in verification processes of each blocks, the state of exterior world may vary from time to time.
If all the information is contained in tau-chain itself, the whole db size will be absurdly immense, because then all www is cloned to db.
Does pruning of blockchain or hashing of data help?

Also, Ohad describes agora as a market for developer. Do you intend to check if production code passes all the tests on non-turing-complete platform on tau-chain?
It sounds like developers can only write a code in non-turing-complete languages.
Perhaps, for example in C language, limiting while loops, function recursions and memory allocation size would make C emulatable on tau?
Maybe ethereum is useless in real world, but as far as I see, tau has the same inherent problem about turing-completeness.

I think this is one of the most eccentric project in the world now, but I actually doubt if it really meaningfully works.

[ohad]

If I am correct, this project is meaningfully extensible only if it is possible to communicate with exterior world other than tau-chain itself, such as www.

not at all. i think the only use-case published for such is the search engine.

But the problem is, in verification processes of each blocks, the state of exterior world may vary from time to time.

indeed, or in a more technical language: IO types (monads) aren't Auth types. cf. Anrew Miller's "Lambda-Auth". Also cf. the blogpost "Proof of Code Execution" on idni.org

If all the information is contained in tau-chain itself, the whole db size will be absurdly immense, because then all www is cloned to db.
Does pruning of blockchain or hashing of data help?

that's why we have both blockchain and DHT.

Also, Ohad describes agora as a market for developer. Do you intend to check if production code passes all the tests on non-turing-complete platform on tau-chain?

it's more about specific tests. if your code meets some requirements, then you can supply a proof for that (unlike under turing complete languages, where such proof cannot be trusted in general)

It sounds like developers can only write a code in non-turing-complete languages.

right

Perhaps, for example in C language, limiting while loops, function recursions and memory allocation size would make C emulatable on tau?

no. but to explain that we'll have to dive into the really deep stuff. can do that on our irc channel

Maybe ethereum is useless in real world, but as far as I see, tau has the same inherent problem about turing-completeness.

which problem? tau can do everything a finite computer can do. if you have infinite computers, please tell me how to get such

I think this is one of the most eccentric project in the world now, but I actually doubt if it really meaningfully works.

what is under doubt? the logic isn't new. blockchain isnt new. rdf isnt new. dht isnt new. we just combine them

[Doken]

After read and view all videos about you and your projects, i want to tell you that:

I read all your posts on bitcointalk about Zennet (decentraliced supercomputer), bitagoras, agoras and Tau-Chain
I read all your site about tau-chain and specially http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf
"About Tau-Chain" submitted to arXiv http://arxiv.org/abs/1502.04120
Martin-Löf Theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_Martin-Löf

and also Isabelle (proof assistant) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabelle_(proof_assistant) and http://isabelle.in.tum.de

Bitnami Docker https://bitnami.com/docker

About supercomputers:
Titan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(supercomputer)
Supercomputer costs http://www.crizmo.com/worlds-top-10-supercomputers-with-their-cost-speed-and-usage.html
Cray http://www.cray.com/sites/default/files/resources/XT-AMD-HLRS-09.pdf
Supercomputers on Silicon Valley http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_28071868/supercomputers-hidden-power-center-silicon-valley

All blog posts www.idni.org/blog/
Your latest document about tau https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit#heading=h.2bcszerkwj2g

P2P Search engines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_search_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YaCy
http://yacy.net/en/index.html
http://www.faroo.com/hp/p2p/p2p.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

and more information about your project or related about it...

Also i read point  7.3 Madurity on http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf   "And Tau-Chain will not implement coins from day 1, but it is something that can and should be
built upon the system"

After that I think that your IPO Agoras are good but economy vision of Agoras are wrong, why?

First, you provide 42.000.000 Tokens of Agoras (Pre-coins of AGORAS) that will include one APP based on Tau-Chain with descentralized supercomputer, bitagoras, search engine, etc... but no include on the IPO Tau-Chain.

That's a big mistake because with the IPO you will create Tau-Chain but we can't participate on it.
I propose that all investors with Agora Tokens will participate with a 21 or 42 percent of future token or coin of Tau-chain if you will make it on future, doesn't matter if you never make a coin or token for Tau-Chain but we want to have the possibility to participate. If with Tau-Chain madurity you include Tokens or coins you can sell the rest (79 or 58 percent) with IPO as same as Waves platform https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387944.0 https://ico.wavesplatform.com and have a big success.

Second, After you sell 42.000.000 or less tokens of Agora it will converted on 147.000.000.000 Agora coins, thats too much coins and a big mistake about supply and demand economy law. Think that billions of coins will be brake capitalization because one cpu renting for one hour of supercomputer now it's between 0,015 or 0,025 dollars, with a capitalization of 3.675.000.000 dollars for 147.000.000.000 coins one coin it's cost 0,025 dollars and without decimals it's a big problem of capitalization.

I think the best it's no more than 147.000.000 Agora coins and 9 decimals and no problem with capitalization if one coin will cost 1 dollar or 500 dollars for renting supercomputer cpu for one hour, and also for bitagoras, etc... You can see on http://coinmarketcap.com all coins with billions of coins have very very bad capitalization because break offer and demand economy law.

Resume:
Investors don't like 147.000.000.000 AGORAS after ICO (supply and demand economy law) but it's good to have 147.000.000 or less + 9 decimals AGORAS
Agoras Investors like you include a participation with some porcentaje over Tau-Chain 21 or 41 percent or some percentage of the future Tau-Chain coins if will happen.

Think about it, this 2 changes will provide more interest and more money to your project, for investors and will provide a future big success for Agoras and Tau-Chain. Ohad, you and your team are making the best software project of this century, make it shine...

Thanks very much for your attention and Sorry my bad english.

[ohad]

thanks! i hope i understood you correctly:

Also i read point  7.3 Madurity on http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf   "And Tau-Chain will not implement coins from day 1, but it is something that can and should be
built upon the system"

one of tau's magic is that it doesn't need a currency in order to have incentive to participate (see what HMC answered to CoinTelegraph http://cointelegraph.com/news/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum). what i mentioned on tauchain.pdf  that tau may contain coins in the future, has to be understood in either:
1. applications over tau can implement coins, just like agoras.
2. it is technically possible that tau's root chain will have some kind of coins. but it might not be the best choice. you probably remember the blogpost "decentralized democracy and the role of the first users". if the users will decide to have a currency on root, i can't help that. but it might not be a good idea since we really want to keep the root chain as minimalistic as possible, offering a platform to build applications over it.

so we don't present any investment model in tau, as we don't even have anything to sell. if the first users will see things differently - then that's what will happen. similarly, the "rules of changing the rules" (to be set by the first users as well) may leave such future option.
therefore no one including me has no way to profit from tau directly, unless, it'll be decided by the users while all users begin with same power.

i hope i covered all your points. let me know otherwise

[Rw13enlib88]

I've seen ohad has answered but anyways I post it 

First, you provide 42.000.000 Tokens of Agoras (Pre-coins of AGORAS) that will include one APP based on Tau-Chain with descentralized supercomputer, bitagoras, search engine, etc... but no include on the IPO Tau-Chain.

That's a big mistake because with the IPO you will create Tau-Chain but we can't participate on it.
I propose that all investors with Agora Tokens will participate with a 21 or 42 percent of future token or coin of Tau-chain if you will make it on future, doesn't matter if you never make a coin or token for Tau-Chain but we want to have the possibility to participate. If with Tau-Chain madurity you include Tokens or coins you can sell the rest (79 or 58 percent) with IPO as same as Waves platform https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387944.0 https://ico.wavesplatform.com and have a big success.

You're saying that TAU will be a different project with different coins, which if I understood correctly, wont happen.
It will be the tech used by AGRS
So if you have AGRS, you will "have" TAU

Second, After you sell 42.000.000 or less tokens of Agora it will converted on 147.000.000.000 Agora coins, thats too much coins and a big mistake about supply and demand economy law. Think that billions of coins will be brake capitalization because one cpu renting for one hour of supercomputer now it's between 0,015 or 0,025 dollars, with a capitalization of 3.675.000.000 dollars for 147.000.000.000 coins one coin it's cost 0,025 dollars and without decimals it's a big problem of capitalization.

I think the best it's no more than 147.000.000 Agora coins and 9 decimals and no problem with capitalization if one coin will cost 1 dollar or 500 dollars for renting supercomputer cpu for one hour, and also for bitagoras, etc... You can see on http://coinmarketcap.com all coins with billions of coins have very very bad capitalization because break offer and demand economy law.

There we go again with the most short term view we're suffering in the crypto space

You're thinking in the today's btc price, today's AGRS price, today's btc demand,
today's AGRS demand and you dont fucking care about what's gonna happen with those variables in the near and long term future

The people who says that there are to much coins they havent think about the future too much.

More disappointing is to see people who pretend to know about economics said that.

The explaining of cpu mining is new, gotta recognize that, but is more insane than what I've already read.

Resume:
Investors don't want 147.000.000.000 AGORAS after ICO (supply and demand economy law) but it's good to have 147.000.000 + 9 decimals AGORAS

1) You are not representative of the investors.
2) Probably most investor dont even know what's better for them
3) Bitcoin is gold. Is scarce.
4) AGRS is to be used by a lot of people and with a lot of uses. NOT SCARCE

5) Think about this:
how many people will be using AGRS in 1 year:
how many people will be using AGRS in 2 year:
how many people will be using AGRS in 5 year:

[Rw13enlib88]

scenario b:
as a release becomes announced and testing begins maybe a la maidsafe style with MVP product etc. the interest increases, the price increases to match the sell side. at some point weeks later and a few price increases later the tokens are sold out and speculative open trading continues until full launch.

This scenario depends on 2 things:
- MVP product launch
- Bitcoin price increment timing
I dont know any of them. Only the team knows the first thing

there can be many more good surprises. for example, the largest btc website in china (8btc) interviewed me and now translating it to chinese, while idni.org and youtube aren't even accessible from china (we made a mirror on idni.io). in the interview i also mentioned routers.space (recall the great firewall of china). interestingly there were a qq group of more than 40 chinese tau fans even before the mirror idni.io was up.
also i always get contacted by large firms. last one was Keyrus. i know that large firms have quite different state of mind than ours, but i guess over time the probability that some nice deal will be established, is high. especially after tau is ready or after partnering with another firm for the sake of the hardware side of routers.space

moreover, all along we do keep the marketing energies for after tau is ready, as now we really need the energies for dev. new materials (website, videos) are being made in the background, quite slowly as we prioritize dev

I misunderstood this because I tho 8btc was an exchange. 

Any contact with chinese exchanges?

[ohad]

I misunderstood this because I tho 8btc was an exchange. 

Any contact with chinese exchanges?

indeed just yesterday a chinese contact of ours "asked if it's ok" to convince large chinese exchanges to put agrs

[ICOcountdown.com]

I misunderstood this because I tho 8btc was an exchange.  

Any contact with chinese exchanges?

indeed just yesterday a chinese contact of ours "asked if it's ok" to convince large chinese exchanges to put agrs

very nice indeed this will give the project much more exposure.

[herkuljee]

After read and view all videos about you and your projects, i want to tell you that:

Hats off for Doken doing all this research about Tau. Don't mind negative comments you did a heck of a job! If someone else does this much research and comes out with points I am definitely listening and giving value. Cheers!

And I agree that something isn't the best way it could be when it comes to economic/marketing aspect. But I haven't decided is it a good or bad thing for my personal slice I want to put on this project

[steve8143]

After read and view all videos about you and your projects, i want to tell you that:

Hats off for Doken doing all this research about Tau. Don't mind negative comments you did a heck of a job! If someone else does this much research and comes out with points I am definitely listening and giving value. Cheers!

And I agree that something isn't the best way it could be when it comes to economic/marketing aspect. But I haven't decided is it a good or bad thing for my personal slice I want to put on this project

agreed...watching this

[edwolf]

Why does icocountdown.com have a countdown for Agoras saying that the price will increase in about 17 days? I thought this was being openly traded on Bittrex..

[ICOcountdown.com]

Why does icocountdown.com have a countdown for Agoras saying that the price will increase in about 17 days? I thought this was being openly traded on Bittrex..

The price increases every month. The fully supply is not on bittrex. The full supply is owned by Ohad and the development team, so it's a rolling crowdsale.

[bitfish]

1) Who would stop another developer "hijacking" Tau-Chain by sending matching blocks to the blockchain?
2) What happens, if another developer is putting his own application on Tau-Chain which uses not Agora Tokens but his own tokens?

[ohad]

1) Who would stop another developer "hijacking" Tau-Chain by sending matching blocks to the blockchain?

the current known working solution is POW. though as tau can change itself over time, if one day someone finds better algo, it can be replaced. maybe on this opportunity i'll share what i just put on tau's fb group:

"as miners on tau won't necessarily do mining, since it might happen that one day the algorithm will be replaced by something which is not mining. so i thought to call the "block publishers" simply "publishers" or "scribes", and the "transaction publishers" to be called "authors". but those were only initial thoughts. will be glad for recommendations"

2) What happens, if another developer is putting his own application on Tau-Chain which uses not Agora Tokens but his own tokens?

tau is aimed to be an open platform for decentralized apps. if one wants to implement more coins over tau, we will not block that

[edwolf]

Why does icocountdown.com have a countdown for Agoras saying that the price will increase in about 17 days? I thought this was being openly traded on Bittrex..

The price increases every month. The fully supply is not on bittrex. The full supply is owned by Ohad and the development team, so it's a rolling crowdsale.

Interesting... I guess I don't understand how a rolling crowdsale works, can you further explain why the price will increase?

[ohad]

Why does icocountdown.com have a countdown for Agoras saying that the price will increase in about 17 days? I thought this was being openly traded on Bittrex..

The price increases every month. The fully supply is not on bittrex. The full supply is owned by Ohad and the development team, so it's a rolling crowdsale.

Interesting... I guess I don't understand how a rolling crowdsale works, can you further explain why the price will increase?

see these guys' summary www.smithandcrown.com/event/tau-chain-agoras-presale/

[Doken]

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ether-price-plumets-ethereum-dao-may-be-hacked/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dao-hacked-ethereum-crashing-in-value-tens-of-millions-allegedly-stolen-2016-6
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/ethereum-dao-hacked/9898/6

Are going to be more secure and bug free Agoras contracts based on Tau-Chain than Ethereum contracts?

Also You said:
"MLTT covers all what matters: finite computers and finite math formulas (infinite sets are welcome, even construction of the reals using Dedekind cuts – after all, this math gets into a finite book). As a result, given a syntactically well-formed code in MLTT together with a proof that “this code will halt” or “this code will never perform more than 1M operations”, we can trust the proof. The decidability guarantees that only true statements can be proved. Moreover: a machine can seek for a proof itself. This is called Automated Theorem Proving, but for complex enough problems their runtime is astronomically high. Yet, a “skeleton” of a complex proof can be supplied by human, letting the machine verifying it by trying to fill the missing parts of the proof."

It will possible use TensorFlow (opensource Google Machine Learning) with Tau-Chain and/or have a bridge with Agoras?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOXR16mLow
https://www.tensorflow.org

or will be best Tau-Chain than TensorFlow?

Will have Agora best speed and usability than https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/?

Thanks.

[ohad]

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ether-price-plumets-ethereum-dao-may-be-hacked/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dao-hacked-ethereum-crashing-in-value-tens-of-millions-allegedly-stolen-2016-6
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/ethereum-dao-hacked/9898/6

Are going to be more secure and bug free Agoras contracts based on Tau-Chain than Ethereum contracts?

Also You said:
"MLTT covers all what matters: finite computers and finite math formulas (infinite sets are welcome, even construction of the reals using Dedekind cuts – after all, this math gets into a finite book). As a result, given a syntactically well-formed code in MLTT together with a proof that “this code will halt” or “this code will never perform more than 1M operations”, we can trust the proof. The decidability guarantees that only true statements can be proved. Moreover: a machine can seek for a proof itself. This is called Automated Theorem Proving, but for complex enough problems their runtime is astronomically high. Yet, a “skeleton” of a complex proof can be supplied by human, letting the machine verifying it by trying to fill the missing parts of the proof."

It will possible use TensorFlow (opensource Google Machine Learning) with Tau-Chain and/or have a bridge with Agoras?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOXR16mLow
https://www.tensorflow.org

or will be best Tau-Chain than TensorFlow?

Will have Agora best speed and usability than https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/?

Thanks.

we spoke about ethereum's inability to be secure all along. and tensorflow doesn't seem to have the answers. please have a look here https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit

[4emily]

Looks like it may well be a case of 'Slow and steady wins the race'  

I'll be adding to my (modest) Agoras investment

[e1ghtSpace]

Guys, what are we going to do about this other turing incomplete crypto?
http://intheoreum.org/