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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3039472 times)
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July 01, 2014, 06:22:55 AM
 #36301

I know right lol
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July 01, 2014, 08:08:47 AM
 #36302

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-95

titan neptune news just posted

Searing

Try out www.synchro.net An 'Old School' BBS (Bulletin Board System) works on Win /10/8/7 and Linux!
Three-minute install. The last upgrade was Jan 1st, 2019. I think you will be impressed by this project!
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July 01, 2014, 08:40:35 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 10:19:03 AM by user27
 #36303

Held my faith in KnC for a long time when others doubted them; turns out the others were right! I have requested refund for upwards of a dozen solid reasons including "fire hazard" and "Q1/Q2 means end of March"... even once they twist it around they cant claim it means Q3.

If refund is not honored promptly then it's time to get legal. If it goes that far then I will be claiming against them for cost of PSU and preparation time also.

Most of the suggestions for litigation against KnC are invalid because Neptune was not sold as a consumer product; they will also dodge safety concerns because they are only selling 12v hardware (way short of 50v legislation). However, they can't argue that dispatch in Q3 is meeting their obligations; they will try to argue that HWYW constitutes meeting their (already twisted) delivery timescale but if this means giving up 2nd machine then they fall wildly short on "under promise and over deliver" which was stated by KnC *everywhere*.

Who's with me?

u27

EDIT RE: http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/acccounts/49238-your-neptune-order-options-invitation-email-received?p=49347#post49347

Yes Jamal, I wouldn't touch that accept button with yours. 2nd Neptune was added to my order free of charge; when it was announced there was nothing about accepting additional terms for it or that it was for late delivery. It is a totally separate issue and it was clearly stated that it was due to the rapid increase in difficulty.




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July 01, 2014, 08:49:12 AM
 #36304

Held my faith in KnC for a long time when others doubted them; turns out the others were right! I have requested refund for upwards of a dozen solid reasons including "fire hazard" and "Q1/Q2 means end of March"... even once they twist it around they cant claim it means Q3.

If refund is not honored promptly then it's time to get legal. If it goes that far then I will be claiming against them for cost of PSU and preparation time also.

Most of the suggestions for litigation against KnC are invalid because Neptune was not sold as a consumer product; they will also dodge safety concerns because they are only selling 12v hardware (way short of 50v legislation). However, they can't argue that dispatch in Q3 is meeting their obligations; they will try to argue that HWYW constitutes meeting their (already twisted) delivery timescale but if this means giving up 2nd machine then they fall wildly short on "under promise and over deliver" which was stated by KnC *everywhere*.

Who's with me?

u27

I honestly wish you the best of luck..but it may take awhile to get any $$$....BFL has been playing this game since dec 2012 deadlines missed..and have suffered NO consequences..and still is selling 10gh on site/tigerdirect/walmart  jally for 295 usd where you can now get an antminer S3 for .75 btc (about? 420 bucks?) 505gh

so BFL goes after Newbies with no refunds..KNC now seems on the same path

again good luck too me 1 yr and 20 days to get BFL refund of 8.5k but that was due mostly to luck and likely a very small window of time (which may already be past)

you may be better off just trying to find out your status of your unit and if soon shipping sell the beastie on ebay to get ROI back

me I know zip ..i xfered my neptune CA to a Titan 2 weeks before KNC seemed to decide to go to the 'dark side' (my luck was way bad on that choice likely)

I may be in your boat in a month or two

Searing

Try out www.synchro.net An 'Old School' BBS (Bulletin Board System) works on Win /10/8/7 and Linux!
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July 01, 2014, 10:01:15 AM
 #36305

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-95

titan neptune news just posted

Searing


Nice Picture of the Neptune Miners, a Lot of Empty Boxes a bit like their Promises. ;-)
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July 01, 2014, 10:06:56 AM
 #36306

Held my faith in KnC for a long time when others doubted them; turns out the others were right! I have requested refund for upwards of a dozen solid reasons including "fire hazard" and "Q1/Q2 means end of March"... even once they twist it around they cant claim it means Q3.

If refund is not honored promptly then it's time to get legal. If it goes that far then I will be claiming against them for cost of PSU and preparation time also.

Most of the suggestions for litigation against KnC are invalid because Neptune was not sold as a consumer product; they will also dodge safety concerns because they are only selling 12v hardware (way short of 50v legislation). However, they can't argue that dispatch in Q3 is meeting their obligations; they will try to argue that HWYW constitutes meeting their (already twisted) delivery timescale but if this means giving up 2nd machine then they fall wildly short on "under promise and over deliver" which was stated by KnC *everywhere*.

Who's with me?

u27

hope you get it sorted, but i'm pretty sure their business-customer-only argument would not stand up in court.
This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

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July 01, 2014, 10:12:26 AM
 #36307

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

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July 01, 2014, 10:22:41 AM
 #36308

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

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July 01, 2014, 10:28:39 AM
 #36309

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

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July 01, 2014, 10:31:26 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 10:47:57 AM by The Avenger
 #36310

KNC are surely guilty of false statement of fact, i.e. misrepresentation?Huh

They claim they are offering *completely free* hashing to compensate for any delays (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg7550611#msg7550611). It's a no-strings-attached statement and no doubt led many customers not to ask for a refund.

Then this *completely free* hashing to compensate for any delays is made conditional on giving up bonus rig (i.e. strings-now-attached).

If they don't offer the *completely free*, no-strings-attached hashing they promised in the February newsletter, then their original statement was misrepresentation?

Because giving up a machine supposedly worth $10,000 is in no way *completely free*.

They also said this in the same newsletter:

Quote
If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers.

If you don't accept the "HWYW but lose bonuis miner" con, then you WILL be suffering loss of mining time if Neptunes are delayed (which is today folks - Q3).

And I think them stating yesterday they ran out of wafer/chips is acknowledging a major delay in the Neptune delivery timeline.

So KNC is either guilty of fraud or misrepresentation - you or your lawyer decide.

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July 01, 2014, 10:37:20 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 12:41:59 PM by The Avenger
 #36311

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.
And let's not forget one of the KNC Directors has publicly stated in an interview:

"We're selling to the general public"
"We are selling fully functional devices, that anyone can come and buy"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3337438;topicseen#msg3337438

Also, KNC acknowledge in the Life on Bitcoin video that most of their customers are "mostly private individuals", which of course would be impossible if they ONLY sold B2B and they fully stuck to their own terms and conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb5-ZEjsKt0

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July 01, 2014, 10:42:00 AM
 #36312

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?
Alternatively, you weren't lying, and did intend to buy for business purposes, in which case why should you be able to change your mind now?
You signed up to crappy T&C. You knew they were crappy at the time.
You knew KNC have shafted people on refunds before, and delivered late before.

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July 01, 2014, 10:43:47 AM
 #36313

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

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July 01, 2014, 10:46:08 AM
 #36314

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote
1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

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July 01, 2014, 10:50:42 AM
 #36315

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote
1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

No; KfC did not place any reasonable restrictions on sales to combat the purchase of the product by individuals and; no, mining bitcoin is not a business activity - it is not subject to the same tax laws as my businesses are.

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July 01, 2014, 10:55:11 AM
 #36316

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote
1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

No; KfC did not place any reasonable restrictions on sales to combat the purchase of the product by individuals and; no, mining bitcoin is not a business activity - it is not subject to the same tax laws as my businesses are.

They have no need to prevent sales to individuals, as individuals can conduct a business.
They don't say that they will only sell to organisations, to to business with VAT numbers, or anything else.
The only restriction is on the agreed intent of the purchaser: 'to conduct a business'. Only the purchaser can know their intent.

The T&Cs are clearly designed to restrict your rights. This has been the case right back from the start with the first miners they sold. This was pointed out several times.
People signed up anyway. Their choice.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?

It may well be that you could eventually win a court case overturning parts of their T&Cs. But noone is ever going to spend the time and money to do that, and both they and you know that.

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July 01, 2014, 11:05:31 AM
 #36317

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but VAT number was required.

Every EU customer had the option to provide VAT number or pay 20% tax on top on the $10-13k and I'm guessing not a single person opted to pay the 20%.

u27

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July 01, 2014, 11:08:17 AM
 #36318

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but VAT number was required.

It wasn't required since I and many others were able to order without a VAT number. If it was required then we couldn't order.

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July 01, 2014, 11:13:16 AM
 #36319

It wasn't required since I and many others were able to order without a VAT number. If it was required then we couldn't order.

I ordered without to start with and KnC gave me the option to pay VAT or provide VAT registration number some time later.

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July 01, 2014, 11:15:05 AM
 #36320

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

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