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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3045502 times)
raskul
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July 01, 2014, 10:22:41 AM
 #36301

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

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RoadStress
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July 01, 2014, 10:28:39 AM
 #36302

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The Avenger
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July 01, 2014, 10:31:26 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 10:47:57 AM by The Avenger
 #36303

KNC are surely guilty of false statement of fact, i.e. misrepresentation?Huh

They claim they are offering *completely free* hashing to compensate for any delays (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg7550611#msg7550611). It's a no-strings-attached statement and no doubt led many customers not to ask for a refund.

Then this *completely free* hashing to compensate for any delays is made conditional on giving up bonus rig (i.e. strings-now-attached).

If they don't offer the *completely free*, no-strings-attached hashing they promised in the February newsletter, then their original statement was misrepresentation?

Because giving up a machine supposedly worth $10,000 is in no way *completely free*.

They also said this in the same newsletter:

Quote
If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers.

If you don't accept the "HWYW but lose bonuis miner" con, then you WILL be suffering loss of mining time if Neptunes are delayed (which is today folks - Q3).

And I think them stating yesterday they ran out of wafer/chips is acknowledging a major delay in the Neptune delivery timeline.

So KNC is either guilty of fraud or misrepresentation - you or your lawyer decide.

"I am not The Avenger"
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The Avenger
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July 01, 2014, 10:37:20 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 12:41:59 PM by The Avenger
 #36304

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.
And let's not forget one of the KNC Directors has publicly stated in an interview:

"We're selling to the general public"
"We are selling fully functional devices, that anyone can come and buy"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3337438;topicseen#msg3337438

Also, KNC acknowledge in the Life on Bitcoin video that most of their customers are "mostly private individuals", which of course would be impossible if they ONLY sold B2B and they fully stuck to their own terms and conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb5-ZEjsKt0

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murraypaul
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July 01, 2014, 10:42:00 AM
 #36305

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?
Alternatively, you weren't lying, and did intend to buy for business purposes, in which case why should you be able to change your mind now?
You signed up to crappy T&C. You knew they were crappy at the time.
You knew KNC have shafted people on refunds before, and delivered late before.

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raskul
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July 01, 2014, 10:43:47 AM
 #36306

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

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murraypaul
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July 01, 2014, 10:46:08 AM
 #36307

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote
1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

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raskul
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July 01, 2014, 10:50:42 AM
 #36308

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote
1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

No; KfC did not place any reasonable restrictions on sales to combat the purchase of the product by individuals and; no, mining bitcoin is not a business activity - it is not subject to the same tax laws as my businesses are.

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murraypaul
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July 01, 2014, 10:55:11 AM
 #36309

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote
1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

No; KfC did not place any reasonable restrictions on sales to combat the purchase of the product by individuals and; no, mining bitcoin is not a business activity - it is not subject to the same tax laws as my businesses are.

They have no need to prevent sales to individuals, as individuals can conduct a business.
They don't say that they will only sell to organisations, to to business with VAT numbers, or anything else.
The only restriction is on the agreed intent of the purchaser: 'to conduct a business'. Only the purchaser can know their intent.

The T&Cs are clearly designed to restrict your rights. This has been the case right back from the start with the first miners they sold. This was pointed out several times.
People signed up anyway. Their choice.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?

It may well be that you could eventually win a court case overturning parts of their T&Cs. But noone is ever going to spend the time and money to do that, and both they and you know that.

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user27
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July 01, 2014, 11:05:31 AM
 #36310

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but VAT number was required.

Every EU customer had the option to provide VAT number or pay 20% tax on top on the $10-13k and I'm guessing not a single person opted to pay the 20%.

u27

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July 01, 2014, 11:08:17 AM
 #36311

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but VAT number was required.

It wasn't required since I and many others were able to order without a VAT number. If it was required then we couldn't order.

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July 01, 2014, 11:13:16 AM
 #36312

It wasn't required since I and many others were able to order without a VAT number. If it was required then we couldn't order.

I ordered without to start with and KnC gave me the option to pay VAT or provide VAT registration number some time later.

raskul
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July 01, 2014, 11:15:05 AM
 #36313

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

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user27
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July 01, 2014, 11:36:13 AM
 #36314

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

They should at this time just be honest about the situation; which it feels like they have forgotten how to do.

I see two options for them to avoid legal action at this stage; they could offer HWYW AND 2nd Neptune to all customers who have not as yet had their first Neptune dispatched or they could offer full refunds to outstanding orders. Clearly they should offer both options, but either one would swing any court action in their favor.

Can we get an idea of how many people have been screwed over at this stage? Is it the majority of batch one?

u27

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July 01, 2014, 01:02:02 PM
 #36315

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

They should at this time just be honest about the situation; which it feels like they have forgotten how to do.

I see two options for them to avoid legal action at this stage; they could offer HWYW AND 2nd Neptune to all customers who have not as yet had their first Neptune dispatched or they could offer full refunds to outstanding orders. Clearly they should offer both options, but either one would swing any court action in their favor.

Can we get an idea of how many people have been screwed over at this stage? Is it the majority of batch one?

u27

I am in batch 1 and I am screwed by knc.

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July 01, 2014, 01:06:29 PM
 #36316

I am in batch 1 and I am screwed by knc.

Sounds like a thread title...

EDIT:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=672950.0

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July 01, 2014, 01:16:33 PM
 #36317

KnC's first three lies:

We are Swedish miners that are producing our own ASIC miners to strengthen the market and avoid monopoly.

A lot of scam sites are appearing every day and we are not one of them

We will in the upcoming weeks opening our order book to allow the purchase of our first set of ASIC miners. They are in the early stages of development now and will be ready in the summer of 2013
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July 01, 2014, 01:37:04 PM
 #36318

Somebody asked about my (now pointless) cable to run Neptune from 2x20A virtual rails on AX1200i; response for all to see as below.

It was just a splitter using three 8 pin CPU power sockets. However I have updated my design since. It now has two 8 pin plugs which fit the AX1200i directly and 16x20AWG cables taking the 12v to a heavy duty 8 pin socket as below; the original Corsair cable plugs into the heavy duty socket and the current is split across two virtual rails.

Shame KnC don't have any chips left!

u27




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July 01, 2014, 01:46:02 PM
 #36319

I am in batch 1 and I am screwed by knc.

Sounds like a thread title...

EDIT:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=672950.0


aha, we think alike Cheesy

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July 01, 2014, 02:16:59 PM
 #36320

man reading all this makes me glad i decided to refund at the beginning of the year.

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THE JOB DONE

 

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in
 

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