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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3045502 times)
mwizard
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September 14, 2014, 12:37:48 AM
Last edit: September 14, 2014, 01:11:13 AM by mwizard
 #37721

Are you a KnCMiner customer, feel abused by their fraudulent business practices and and have considered a legal route? Did you query and got replies from consumer agencies?

Please check my threads and contribute if you can!

I'm collecting replies from authorities and lawyers, as well as collecting points that may be useful for legal action here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435

I've also started a thread to get an idea whether there is enough interest in a class action lawsuit:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781422

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking.  But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.  

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive.  It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V.  It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.  

You need to name which directive the miner falls under because only then will it be clear what the requirements are for that CE marking.    Unless the miner falls under a specific CE directive it does not need a CE marking.    

See http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/single-market-goods/cemarking/about-ce-marking/index_en.htm

Having to include an imaginary issue around KNC breaking the law over CE markings, because it does not also sell the power supplies, does not seem helpful to your case.
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September 14, 2014, 02:48:03 AM
 #37722

http://fuk.io/knc-neptune-setup-guide-review-and-troubleshooting-35-terahash-bitcoin-miner/

full KNC troubleshooting guide by me

with help of few guys here Smiley

jomay
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September 14, 2014, 08:10:47 AM
 #37723

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking.  But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.  

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive.  It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V.  It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.  
Yes, I see that and that's why I have written "may" need CE marking. However, why would a 12V halogen bulb have the CE marking?
I am also wondering whether there are other regulations besides CE. A company cannot sell something clearly dangerous to its customers without warning.

The law and regulations also often don't like if they are "side-stepped" in a shady manner. That's what I meant with the missing PSU. Example: I have a free capital gains tax allowance per year. If I try to crystallize gains by selling and quickly buying again, then the tax man argues that this was only for tax reasons and hence void. I understand tax laws are of more interest, but I believe a similar principle may apply here.


Having to include an imaginary issue around KNC breaking the law over CE markings, because it does not also sell the power supplies, does not seem helpful to your case.
No, my case is not built on this and I don't need to include it. The consumer vs. business issue may be the most promising route. I think the fire hazard and low safety of their equipment simply adds to the case, as it is a very good reason for a consumer to cancel an order.

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jomay
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September 14, 2014, 08:15:55 AM
 #37724

Good luck is all I can say. But make sure you really look at the pros and cons of doing this and weigh in by asking yourself if it's really worth it in the end?

I hope you can find yourself a few wealthy people who are willing to go through with it. Notice I said wealthy and no rich? There is a difference between the two classes of people.
Yes I understand. That's why my main goal is to get a refund, and that should be very easy and cheap to test. After all I simply want to know whether I am a business or a consumer. In the UK I'd file a case at a small claims court, done. I'm not sure how to deal with it in Sweden.

Maybe you don't see it, but I'm actually investing quite a lot of my time for sth. that does not necessarily help only or primarily me. Otherwise I'd simply put pressure on KnC privately and accept any compensation and agree to not say anything anymore. Maybe I should do this.

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btc_uzr
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September 14, 2014, 12:32:14 PM
 #37725

 Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
mwizard
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September 14, 2014, 12:59:18 PM
Last edit: September 14, 2014, 01:12:12 PM by mwizard
 #37726

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking.  But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.  

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive.  It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V.  It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.  
Yes, I see that and that's why I have written "may" need CE marking. However, why would a 12V halogen bulb have the CE marking?
.No, my case is not built on this and I don't need to include it. The consumer vs. business issue may be the most promising route. I think the fire hazard and low safety of their equipment simply adds to the case, as it is a very good reason for a consumer to cancel an order.

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps.  For example 2009/125/EC.  Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production.  If you brought it for "economic purpose"  you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law.  For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.  

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.


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September 14, 2014, 01:17:42 PM
 #37727

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking.  But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.  

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive.  It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V.  It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.  
Yes, I see that and that's why I have written "may" need CE marking. However, why would a 12V halogen bulb have the CE marking?
.No, my case is not built on this and I don't need to include it. The consumer vs. business issue may be the most promising route. I think the fire hazard and low safety of their equipment simply adds to the case, as it is a very good reason for a consumer to cancel an order.

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps.  For example 2009/125/EC.  Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production.  If you brought it for "economic purpose"  you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law.  For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.  

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.


Well said!
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September 14, 2014, 02:32:39 PM
 #37728

So the Titan is only 300Mh/s for 1100 Watts.

That less than I expected.

Why not ship one or two more modules to get 400 Mh/s like advertised ?

The Blocks Factory Mining POOL : DGB(sha256d, Skein, Qubit, Groestl & Scrypt), FTC
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September 14, 2014, 03:39:26 PM
 #37729

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps.  For example 2009/125/EC.  Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production.  If you brought it for "economic purpose"  you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law.  For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.  

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.
I'm european and I'm proud that we have stronger regulations that make the life of cowboy-businesses difficult.

I have bought the bitcoin/litecoin miner as a hobbyist device. The intent was not to maximise profit or similar. I found mining fun and if there was . However, I am not going to run a potentially dangerous device in my private home.

The link you have sent is actually very interesting, thanks. It states:
"The majority of MS do not have any explicit rules on mixed transactions. However, some countries treat them as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries) or if the link to a business activity is only 'indirect' (Poland)."
So my (german) gut feeling about law and that the simply cannot easily declare me a business may be right and may also apply in Sweden.

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jomay
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September 14, 2014, 06:12:06 PM
 #37730

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps.  For example 2009/125/EC.  Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production.  If you brought it for "economic purpose"  you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law.  For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.  

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.
I'm european and I'm proud that we have stronger regulations that make the life of cowboy-businesses difficult.

I have bought the bitcoin/litecoin miner as a hobbyist device. The intent was not to maximise profit or similar. I found mining fun and if there was . However, I am not going to run a potentially dangerous device in my private home.

The link you have sent is actually very interesting, thanks. It states:
"The majority of MS do not have any explicit rules on mixed transactions. However, some countries treat them as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries) or if the link to a business activity is only 'indirect' (Poland)."
So my (german) gut feeling about law and that the simply cannot easily declare me a business may be right and may also apply in Sweden.

It´s not possible for KnC to declare the sales B2B if you´re a European customer. They´re just lying and trying to sell the lie to you.
And don´t forget that European consumer law protects your product for 3 years if something goes wrong.
If you can prove that the problem was existing and not caused by you KnC is obliged by Swedish law to compensate you with a product that matches the original from their sortiment (You need the original receipt and to be the original buyer).
I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?

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jomay
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September 14, 2014, 06:43:44 PM
 #37731

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?
Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley
No, I don't have a VAT ID, I'm not registered as a business anywhere and I have never run a business.
TBH, I am a bit nervous about it because my contract of employment forbids me to run a business.
I just want out and focus on other things.

What do you recommend? Take a lawyer who will prepare a letter to KnC asking for a refund?

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September 14, 2014, 07:34:31 PM
 #37732


Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

This is false, you can be a business without a EU Tax or VAT number.

You can be a sole trader, you can be a consultant, you can be whatever.

You agreed to the T&C's before you paid for the goods, the T&C's specify the sale is only to businesses.

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September 14, 2014, 07:48:19 PM
 #37733


Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

This is false, you can be a business without a EU Tax or VAT number.

You can be a sole trader, you can be a consultant, you can be whatever.

You agreed to the T&C's before you paid for the goods, the T&C's specify the sale is only to businesses.
Hmm, how did your refund go, Biffa? I don't have really time to read up on this monster thread.

Also the law is sometimes binding. You CANNOT sell a random product on a website "for business use only" without asking for business details etc.
The question is whether mining is a business activity and whether the intent to mine is sufficient to be considered a business. Again, check my thread for more details:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435

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September 14, 2014, 07:51:21 PM
 #37734

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

Hi btc_uzr, I'm wondering why and whether you have changed your opinion?
You had previously mentioned this below.
(Although when I ordered it was not "non-refundable")
Thanks for the support.

(...)

Please tell me, I get my Titan until the end of the Q3 2014?
And if you do not get it, how long do I wait for a refund?

Considering the date of announced titan chip tape out:
 "We achieved tape-out of the 2284-core Titan in early June"
they might be ready mid of September.

Titan refund ?
I'd say you will wait forever..
Didn't you notice "This product is nonrefundable." ?

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murraypaul
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September 14, 2014, 09:30:33 PM
 #37735

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?
Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

No it isn't.
What you've said is frankly rubbish.

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btc_uzr
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September 14, 2014, 09:45:24 PM
 #37736

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

Hi btc_uzr, I'm wondering why and whether you have changed your opinion?
You had previously mentioned this below.
(Although when I ordered it was not "non-refundable")
Thanks for the support.

(...)

Please tell me, I get my Titan until the end of the Q3 2014?
And if you do not get it, how long do I wait for a refund?

Considering the date of announced titan chip tape out:
 "We achieved tape-out of the 2284-core Titan in early June"
they might be ready mid of September.

Titan refund ?
I'd say you will wait forever..
Didn't you notice "This product is nonrefundable." ?


No, opinion has not changed.
Filing complaints and waiting 'forever' (you know what time is like in bitcoin land) is not in opposite to each other.
Refund will take forever as they do not want to pay. Making them pay takes time, but is worth it.

When they ship you next week the order you have cancelled, let them know -for the record- it remains their property and you still want your refund.

Wish you best luck
..and more support from the affected ones.

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
murraypaul
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September 14, 2014, 10:03:40 PM
 #37737

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?
Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

No it isn't.
What you've said is frankly rubbish.

It´s not.
http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Lagar/Svenskforfattningssamling/Distans--och-hemforsaljningsla_sfs-2005-59/

If you don´t know Swedish law or can add anything of value, please don´t post.  Smiley

Your cite defines the rights that consumers have in distance contracts.
It does not define what a consumer is, or in any way back up your original claim.

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mwizard
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September 14, 2014, 10:14:01 PM
Last edit: September 14, 2014, 10:43:34 PM by mwizard
 #37738

Sweden only appears to allow a consumer 14 days from ordering on-line if they wish a refund.  See the following from Sweden.

http://www.konsumentverket.se/Global/Konsumentverket.se/Best%C3%A4lla%20och%20ladda%20ner/Broschyrer/Dokument/kis_engelska_06.pdf

The best you can hope for may be a replacement or repair if the device fails.  

jomay, you have also not made it clear why you want a refund.  If it is because the miner did/will not give a ROI you will be assumed to have purchased it for "economic purpose" and so may not be covered by consumer law.  
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September 14, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
 #37739

Can you advise whether you have any professional or business interests that would prevent you from taking a civil case against KNC ?
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September 14, 2014, 10:35:08 PM
 #37740

If you want to discuss it further, you´re welcome to PM me.
I´ve been practicing Swedish law since 1999 and European consumer law since 2011, i promise you i´m not pointing you in wrong direction.  Smiley

Based on what you have seen, as a  someone practicing Swedish law do you think any on the Titan buyers have a solid case against KNC for getting refunds ?
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