Bitcoin Forum
November 23, 2017, 10:15:26 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 1838 1839 1840 1841 1842 1843 1844 1845 1846 1847 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 1853 1854 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 [1888] 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 ... 2138 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012001 times)
lucazane
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1173



View Profile WWW
September 14, 2014, 02:32:39 PM
 #37741

So the Titan is only 300Mh/s for 1100 Watts.

That less than I expected.

Why not ship one or two more modules to get 400 Mh/s like advertised ?

The Blocks Factory Mining POOL : DGB(sha256d, Skein, Qubit, Groestl & Scrypt), FTC
1511432126
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511432126

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511432126
Reply with quote  #2

1511432126
Report to moderator
1511432126
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511432126

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511432126
Reply with quote  #2

1511432126
Report to moderator
Join ICO Now A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511432126
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511432126

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511432126
Reply with quote  #2

1511432126
Report to moderator
1511432126
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511432126

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511432126
Reply with quote  #2

1511432126
Report to moderator
jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 03:39:26 PM
 #37742

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps.  For example 2009/125/EC.  Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production.  If you brought it for "economic purpose"  you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law.  For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.  

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.
I'm european and I'm proud that we have stronger regulations that make the life of cowboy-businesses difficult.

I have bought the bitcoin/litecoin miner as a hobbyist device. The intent was not to maximise profit or similar. I found mining fun and if there was . However, I am not going to run a potentially dangerous device in my private home.

The link you have sent is actually very interesting, thanks. It states:
"The majority of MS do not have any explicit rules on mixed transactions. However, some countries treat them as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries) or if the link to a business activity is only 'indirect' (Poland)."
So my (german) gut feeling about law and that the simply cannot easily declare me a business may be right and may also apply in Sweden.

BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 06:12:06 PM
 #37743

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps.  For example 2009/125/EC.  Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production.  If you brought it for "economic purpose"  you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law.  For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.  

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.
I'm european and I'm proud that we have stronger regulations that make the life of cowboy-businesses difficult.

I have bought the bitcoin/litecoin miner as a hobbyist device. The intent was not to maximise profit or similar. I found mining fun and if there was . However, I am not going to run a potentially dangerous device in my private home.

The link you have sent is actually very interesting, thanks. It states:
"The majority of MS do not have any explicit rules on mixed transactions. However, some countries treat them as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries) or if the link to a business activity is only 'indirect' (Poland)."
So my (german) gut feeling about law and that the simply cannot easily declare me a business may be right and may also apply in Sweden.

It´s not possible for KnC to declare the sales B2B if you´re a European customer. They´re just lying and trying to sell the lie to you.
And don´t forget that European consumer law protects your product for 3 years if something goes wrong.
If you can prove that the problem was existing and not caused by you KnC is obliged by Swedish law to compensate you with a product that matches the original from their sortiment (You need the original receipt and to be the original buyer).
I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?

BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 06:43:44 PM
 #37744

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?
Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley
No, I don't have a VAT ID, I'm not registered as a business anywhere and I have never run a business.
TBH, I am a bit nervous about it because my contract of employment forbids me to run a business.
I just want out and focus on other things.

What do you recommend? Take a lawyer who will prepare a letter to KnC asking for a refund?

BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
Biffa
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358



View Profile
September 14, 2014, 07:34:31 PM
 #37745


Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

This is false, you can be a business without a EU Tax or VAT number.

You can be a sole trader, you can be a consultant, you can be whatever.

You agreed to the T&C's before you paid for the goods, the T&C's specify the sale is only to businesses.

jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 07:48:19 PM
 #37746


Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

This is false, you can be a business without a EU Tax or VAT number.

You can be a sole trader, you can be a consultant, you can be whatever.

You agreed to the T&C's before you paid for the goods, the T&C's specify the sale is only to businesses.
Hmm, how did your refund go, Biffa? I don't have really time to read up on this monster thread.

Also the law is sometimes binding. You CANNOT sell a random product on a website "for business use only" without asking for business details etc.
The question is whether mining is a business activity and whether the intent to mine is sufficient to be considered a business. Again, check my thread for more details:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435

BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 07:51:21 PM
 #37747

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

Hi btc_uzr, I'm wondering why and whether you have changed your opinion?
You had previously mentioned this below.
(Although when I ordered it was not "non-refundable")
Thanks for the support.

(...)

Please tell me, I get my Titan until the end of the Q3 2014?
And if you do not get it, how long do I wait for a refund?

Considering the date of announced titan chip tape out:
 "We achieved tape-out of the 2284-core Titan in early June"
they might be ready mid of September.

Titan refund ?
I'd say you will wait forever..
Didn't you notice "This product is nonrefundable." ?

BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
murraypaul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 09:30:33 PM
 #37748

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?
Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

No it isn't.
What you've said is frankly rubbish.

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
btc_uzr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434


let's have some fun


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 09:45:24 PM
 #37749

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

Hi btc_uzr, I'm wondering why and whether you have changed your opinion?
You had previously mentioned this below.
(Although when I ordered it was not "non-refundable")
Thanks for the support.

(...)

Please tell me, I get my Titan until the end of the Q3 2014?
And if you do not get it, how long do I wait for a refund?

Considering the date of announced titan chip tape out:
 "We achieved tape-out of the 2284-core Titan in early June"
they might be ready mid of September.

Titan refund ?
I'd say you will wait forever..
Didn't you notice "This product is nonrefundable." ?


No, opinion has not changed.
Filing complaints and waiting 'forever' (you know what time is like in bitcoin land) is not in opposite to each other.
Refund will take forever as they do not want to pay. Making them pay takes time, but is worth it.

When they ship you next week the order you have cancelled, let them know -for the record- it remains their property and you still want your refund.

Wish you best luck
..and more support from the affected ones.

!! File Complaints Against KnCMiner NOW !!
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
murraypaul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 10:03:40 PM
 #37750

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?
Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest Smiley

No it isn't.
What you've said is frankly rubbish.

It´s not.
http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Lagar/Svenskforfattningssamling/Distans--och-hemforsaljningsla_sfs-2005-59/

If you don´t know Swedish law or can add anything of value, please don´t post.  Smiley

Your cite defines the rights that consumers have in distance contracts.
It does not define what a consumer is, or in any way back up your original claim.

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
mwizard
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 207


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 10:14:01 PM
 #37751

Sweden only appears to allow a consumer 14 days from ordering on-line if they wish a refund.  See the following from Sweden.

http://www.konsumentverket.se/Global/Konsumentverket.se/Best%C3%A4lla%20och%20ladda%20ner/Broschyrer/Dokument/kis_engelska_06.pdf

The best you can hope for may be a replacement or repair if the device fails.  

jomay, you have also not made it clear why you want a refund.  If it is because the miner did/will not give a ROI you will be assumed to have purchased it for "economic purpose" and so may not be covered by consumer law.  
s1gs3gv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106

ex uno plures


View Profile WWW
September 14, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
 #37752

Can you advise whether you have any professional or business interests that would prevent you from taking a civil case against KNC ?
BitcoinPappi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 793


View Profile
September 14, 2014, 10:35:08 PM
 #37753

If you want to discuss it further, you´re welcome to PM me.
I´ve been practicing Swedish law since 1999 and European consumer law since 2011, i promise you i´m not pointing you in wrong direction.  Smiley

Based on what you have seen, as a  someone practicing Swedish law do you think any on the Titan buyers have a solid case against KNC for getting refunds ?
s1gs3gv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106

ex uno plures


View Profile WWW
September 14, 2014, 10:38:09 PM
 #37754

So the Titan is only 300Mh/s for 1100 Watts.

That less than I expected.

Why not ship one or two more modules to get 400 Mh/s like advertised ?

KNC claims 'yield problems'
s1gs3gv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106

ex uno plures


View Profile WWW
September 14, 2014, 10:55:10 PM
 #37755

s1gs3gv: There´s nothing preventing me from working a case against KnC  Smiley

Does Swedish/European law allow the aggregation of individual claims into what in the US might be termed a 'class action' ?
poodle63
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 387



View Profile
September 14, 2014, 11:01:40 PM
 #37756

Any one receive shipping list yet?



░░░░░░░░░░▄▄▄▄▄▄
░░░░░░▄███████████▄
░░░░▄██▀▀░░░░░░░░▀██▄
░░░██▀░░░▄▄▄▄▄▄░░░░▀██
░░██▀░░▄██▀▀▀▀▀░░▄▄
██▀░░██▀░░▄▄▄▄░░▀▀
██▀░░██░░▄██▀▀▀█▄
██░░██░░██▀
██░░▀▀░░██
██░░▄▄░░██
██░░██░░██▄
██▄░░██░░▀██▄▄▄█▀
██▄░░██▄░░▀▀▀▀░░▄▄
░░██▄░░▀██▄▄▄▄▄░░▀▀
░░░██▄░░░▀▀▀▀▀▀░░░░▄██
░░░░▀██▄▄░░░░░░░░▄██▀
░░░░░░▀███████████▀
░░░░░░░░░░▀▀▀▀▀▀


░░░░░░░░░░▄▄▄▄▄▄
░░░░░░▄███████████▄
░░░░▄██▀▀░░░░░░░░▀██▄
░░░██▀░░░▄▄▄▄▄▄░░░░▀██
░░██▀░░▄██▀▀▀▀▀░░▄▄
██▀░░██▀░░▄▄▄▄░░▀▀
██▀░░██░░▄██▀▀▀█▄
██░░██░░██▀
██░░▀▀░░██
██░░▄▄░░██
██░░██░░██▄
██▄░░██░░▀██▄▄▄█▀
██▄░░██▄░░▀▀▀▀░░▄▄
░░██▄░░▀██▄▄▄▄▄░░▀▀
░░░██▄░░░▀▀▀▀▀▀░░░░▄██
░░░░▀██▄▄░░░░░░░░▄██▀
░░░░░░▀███████████▀
░░░░░░░░░░▀▀▀▀▀▀

▀  Twitter
▀  Telegram
▀  Facebook
▀  ANN Thread
▀  Whitepaper
▀  Website
s1gs3gv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106

ex uno plures


View Profile WWW
September 14, 2014, 11:09:52 PM
 #37757

If you´re not a European citizen there´s nothing i can do to help you i´m afraid.

Interesting. Thanks for the quick reply. Just curious - does European law not protect people identically irrespective of their nationality ?

If not, what legal recourse would US citizens have against a Swedish company who engaged, for example, in deceptive advertising ?
s1gs3gv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106

ex uno plures


View Profile WWW
September 14, 2014, 11:19:01 PM
 #37758

Thanks. If y'all are interested in this kind of business, or just for grins, be sure to check out the Alpha-T debacle -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.0
jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 15, 2014, 12:31:58 AM
 #37759

Sweden only appears to allow a consumer 14 days from ordering on-line if they wish a refund.  See the following from Sweden.

http://www.konsumentverket.se/Global/Konsumentverket.se/Best%C3%A4lla%20och%20ladda%20ner/Broschyrer/Dokument/kis_engelska_06.pdf

That is incorrect. 14 days from ordering only applies to services. Products can be canceled any time before delivery. I believe they can also be cancelled up to 14 days after delivery, but I didn't find the relevant paragraph in Swedish law yet. The Swedish Law also has to conform to Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament. The latter is obviously not as specific and not binding at a Swedish court.

I have prepared a first cancellation letter now, citing the relevant paragraphs and directives from Swedish law and EU law.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&rid=1
https://lagen.nu/1990:932

Both also define consumers quite explicitly as someone that primarily acts outside business activities. I don't know if buying a mining device already constitutes a business activity. But I'm keen to find out.

In conjuction with 3 § of the Swedish consumer law KnC's clause that they only sell to businesses is void.

Law is fun somehow. A bit like programming.


jomay, you have also not made it clear why you want a refund.  If it is because the miner did/will not give a ROI you will be assumed to have purchased it for "economic purpose" and so may not be covered by consumer law.  

I am a consumer, I do not need to give a reason why I want a refund. But just for the record it is not because of "ROI" or "no ROI". I want a refund because:
1. I am not allowed to run a business as per my employment contract
2. I am afraid that the device is defective and poses a fire hazard. This is based on the Neptune.
3. I am shocked that KnCMiner tries to dodge as many laws as possible (CE marking, consumer rights). I do not wish to deal with such a company.


BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
jomay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 167


View Profile
September 15, 2014, 12:35:28 AM
 #37760

If you´re not a European citizen there´s nothing i can do to help you i´m afraid.

Interesting. Thanks for the quick reply. Just curious - does European law not protect people identically irrespective of their nationality ?

If not, what legal recourse would US citizens have against a Swedish company who engaged, for example, in deceptive advertising ?
Nationality is irrelevant. Only residence is relevant, as it determines which law applies to you.

Deceptive advertising is probably criminal law (like fraud, misconduct etc) so you could try to report it to the Swedish authorities. I'm considering that as well, but it is a long shot and you probably will only waste your time. If they get convicted then you could go for your damages via a civil case. But TBH, I don't know much about law - you better ask someone else.

Alternatively you can try to sue them for civil damages based on their alleged criminal actions and force a judge to look at it. My opinion is that (i) it would be quite expensive, (ii) KnC's "deceptive advertising" is not as clear cut as you may think it is, and (iii) you may/would probably have to proof their intent to deceive etc. Not easy imho.

As it is too late for me and I really need to go to bed... here's a few links if you wanted to file complaints for US residents:
http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/resellers-affilicates/general-questions/48782-list-of-agencies-to-report-fraud-in-sweden-etc

He's citing two possibly relevant links:
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
http://www.econsumer.gov/english/

There's a few other ideas I've got, but right now... too tired to think.

BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
Pages: « 1 ... 1838 1839 1840 1841 1842 1843 1844 1845 1846 1847 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 1853 1854 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 [1888] 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 ... 2138 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!