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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3046303 times)
xstr8guy
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September 08, 2014, 07:56:22 AM
 #37621

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/09/05/for-kncminer-time-to-forget-selling-bitcoin-machines-to-at-home-miners/

Wonder how they will want to be remembered for their last home units ?. I had converted my Neptune order to Titan, such a bad decision in hindsight with their current attitudes.

Probably there will be a miracle and the Titan will be well above spec. We can only wish haha

No miracles, sorry.

Titan is modular just like Neptune. And that means they will reduce the number of modules until they deliver only the advertised specs and nothing extra. They'll probably overclock the hell out of the modules too just like the Neptune.
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Searing
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September 08, 2014, 08:23:52 AM
 #37622

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/09/05/for-kncminer-time-to-forget-selling-bitcoin-machines-to-at-home-miners/

Wonder how they will want to be remembered for their last home units ?. I had converted my Neptune order to Titan, such a bad decision in hindsight with their current attitudes.

Probably there will be a miracle and the Titan will be well above spec. We can only wish haha

No miracles, sorry.

Titan is modular just like Neptune. And that means they will reduce the number of modules until they deliver only the advertised specs and nothing extra. They'll probably overclock the hell out of the modules too just like the Neptune.

This is unfortunately true imho. If they were smart they would leave the last of us customers of their last home miner equipment (not cloud) product with

1) the option to refund

or at least

2) some kind of compensation in increased hash or 2nd unit like was done with Neptunes etc

I fear with the mad rush to $$$ and the panic filled speed and greed of KNC to the dark side this last year (only been a bit over a year) they will opt for GREED!

Too bad ...long term imho they would be better off wrapping their last customers up with a 'fair' situation...would help them down the road not having such
obvious tossing of home users out the window to get to the big bucks arctic miner investors....neat and tidy is how they should do it imho...show some class.
use it as an example to new customers for their new endeavor with arctic cloud mining or btc wallet or whatever....their future is.

Likely we will simply be trampled over in the rush to get more $$$..my view from past experiences...again hope I'm wrong...but imho again long term they should show
some class and compensate or allow refunds to further their reputation in a positive light as the move on to their NEW arctic cloud operation

but then again from what I've seen of KNC they do not seem to follow the Warren Buffet school of the customer is king..they seem now to have moved to
the BFL camp of the customers are road kill on the way to BTC profits

too bad they went blindingly fast to the $$$ in all this imho....the whole power/$$$ corrupts argument seems to be true indeed!

my 2c worth

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September 08, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
 #37623

I didn't register account on KNC form, but I've been timely survey topics on their website, and since last news they said need more time to tune up configuration of Titan chip, I don't smell good taste, I think the spec of Tity is identical to L1,  so this might a ugly thing to deal with, we might face huge loss with this pre order deal, so save some money and turn to L1, it might earn some fiat back for you.

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September 08, 2014, 09:24:15 AM
 #37624

For all who are seeking refunds on Titans. Someone posted the original ToS and Product page from 28th March 2014 in the KnC forum.

I can not find "Non-refundable" anywhere. Maybe this a lead. Just wanted to drop this here:

Any thoughts on this?

Quote
He's right. Nowhere on the buying page does it say no refund.

http://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware

The Terms and Conditions when people bought the Titans does not say the Titans are non-refundable.

http://web.archive.org/web/20131230125306/https://www.kncminer.com/pages/TandC

Many bought the product thinking they could get a refund, but KnCminer reneged.

Also noteworthy is that their terms and conditions does not say the Purchaser _is_ a business or defines them as a business, they say the Purchaser/ Consumer _uses_ it for business, but not that they _are_ a business. Therefore, their contract is between consumer and kncminer or someone/a consumer who uses it for business and kncminer, but nowhere does it say their contract is between a business and kncminer.

Just ask their new investors, they would know that KnCMiner got themselves in legal and financial woes even if they can't see it.

Edit: The ToS are from Dez. Anyone has the ToS saved around End of March 2014?

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September 08, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
 #37625

The notion of declaring that all sales are considered b2b is utterly false. A business does not get to dodge their consumer responsibilities simply by stating that they consider all their sales to be to businesses.

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.




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September 08, 2014, 10:35:20 AM
 #37626

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/09/05/for-kncminer-time-to-forget-selling-bitcoin-machines-to-at-home-miners/

Wonder how they will want to be remembered for their last home units ?. I had converted my Neptune order to Titan, such a bad decision in hindsight with their current attitudes.

Probably there will be a miracle and the Titan will be well above spec. We can only wish haha

No miracles, sorry.

Titan is modular just like Neptune. And that means they will reduce the number of modules until they deliver only the advertised specs and nothing extra. They'll probably overclock the hell out of the modules too just like the Neptune.

Hope not likely what you said, but according to your past article, I'll vote you, and say goodbye to my fiat and I'm also totally loose my believe on KNC, if the ending is just like what you said.

And another sorry thing is, could it be after funding success and they are decide to not delivery Tity and bonus miner to customer or even some one still on the waiting list, and easy way is to held refund? Because they have enough capital now, so just wait and see, hope this won't happening in near future.

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September 08, 2014, 10:59:21 AM
 #37627

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/09/05/for-kncminer-time-to-forget-selling-bitcoin-machines-to-at-home-miners/

Wonder how they will want to be remembered for their last home units ?. I had converted my Neptune order to Titan, such a bad decision in hindsight with their current attitudes.

Probably there will be a miracle and the Titan will be well above spec. We can only wish haha

No miracles, sorry.

Titan is modular just like Neptune. And that means they will reduce the number of modules until they deliver only the advertised specs and nothing extra. They'll probably overclock the hell out of the modules too just like the Neptune.

Hope not likely what you said, but according to your past article, I'll vote you, and say goodbye to my fiat and I'm also totally loose my believe on KNC, if the ending is just like what you said.

And another sorry thing is, could it be after funding success and they are decide to not delivery Tity and bonus miner to customer or even some one still on the waiting list, and easy way is to held refund? Because they have enough capital now, so just wait and see, hope this won't happening in near future.


what will be imho the 'final indignity' is when KNC announces after closing out its equipment making days..its new shiny TITAN giant mining Data Hall! I figure right around Dec/Jan that will be announced......the final slap to the face for those of us ..thru purchase of consumer products made them all those $$$ and control of all that bitcoin bandwith so to speak

power corrupts guess it is very true!

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September 08, 2014, 12:05:11 PM
 #37628

Of course they will! This is a one of the most predatory form of capitalism I have ever seen in cryptos.

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BitcoinPappi
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September 08, 2014, 12:35:33 PM
 #37629

For all who are seeking refunds on Titans. Someone posted the original ToS and Product page from 28th March 2014 in the KnC forum.

I can not find "Non-refundable" anywhere. Maybe this a lead. Just wanted to drop this here:

Any thoughts on this?

Quote
He's right. Nowhere on the buying page does it say no refund.

http://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware

The Terms and Conditions when people bought the Titans does not say the Titans are non-refundable.

http://web.archive.org/web/20131230125306/https://www.kncminer.com/pages/TandC

Many bought the product thinking they could get a refund, but KnCminer reneged.

Also noteworthy is that their terms and conditions does not say the Purchaser _is_ a business or defines them as a business, they say the Purchaser/ Consumer _uses_ it for business, but not that they _are_ a business. Therefore, their contract is between consumer and kncminer or someone/a consumer who uses it for business and kncminer, but nowhere does it say their contract is between a business and kncminer.

Just ask their new investors, they would know that KnCMiner got themselves in legal and financial woes even if they can't see it.

Edit: The ToS are from Dez. Anyone has the ToS saved around End of March 2014?

Thanks
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September 08, 2014, 12:36:45 PM
 #37630

Oh man, bitmain L1 claim to support scryptN, oh holy sh#t, I'm screwed.

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September 08, 2014, 12:50:05 PM
 #37631

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.
If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

Can you provide any support in law for those claims?

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September 08, 2014, 01:40:19 PM
 #37632

omfg if bitmain is true.. they we all failed on titan buyings.

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September 08, 2014, 02:01:15 PM
 #37633

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.
If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

Can you provide any support in law for those claims?

https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/overview
Quote
1. Overview

If you sell a customer a product or a service, you need to give them an invoice (bill) by law if both you and the customer are registered for VAT (a business to business transaction). An invoice is not the same as a receipt, which is an acknowledgement of payment.

WARNING!!! Check your forum URLs carefully and avoid links to phishing sites like 'thebitcointalk' 'bitcointalk.to' and 'BitcointaLLk'
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September 08, 2014, 02:01:28 PM
 #37634

Screwed, even they ship, there is no chance ROi, ether they make a refund, I'm just like a fool lend my fiat to them with no interesting for months, this is such kind of lose lose situation, how could they treat us this way? What a kidding me~
 

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September 08, 2014, 02:18:20 PM
 #37635

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.
If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

Can you provide any support in law for those claims?

https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/overview
Quote
1. Overview

If you sell a customer a product or a service, you need to give them an invoice (bill) by law if both you and the customer are registered for VAT (a business to business transaction). An invoice is not the same as a receipt, which is an acknowledgement of payment.

That isn't the same thing you said above.
A Ltd company doesn't have to be registered for VAT, and an individual could choose to register without incorporating.

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September 08, 2014, 03:18:58 PM
 #37636

Ok, let's try this:

http://www.eu-consumer-law.org/consumerstudy_part3a_EN.pdf
Quote
consumer shall mean any natural person who
buys a product for purposes that do not fall
within the sphere of his commercial or
professional activity

The ASIC manufacturer does not get to decide how the product is going to be used by the individual who is buying it, therefore, they cannot define it's purchase as being for the purpose of commercial activity. (Professional meaning an activity derived from educational training).


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September 08, 2014, 03:27:52 PM
 #37637

Ok, let's try this:

http://www.eu-consumer-law.org/consumerstudy_part3a_EN.pdf
Quote
consumer shall mean any natural person who
buys a product for purposes that do not fall
within the sphere of his commercial or
professional activity

The ASIC manufacturer does not get to decide how the product is going to be used by the individual who is buying it, therefore, they cannot define it's purchase as being for the purpose of commercial activity. (Professional meaning an activity derived from educational training).

I suspect that KNC's response would be that these are machines who sole purpose is to create money by mining bitcoins.
They are being bought and run in the (mostly vain) expectation of making a profit.
That is a commercial activity.
The person buying has agreed that they are purchasing it for business reasons.
If I were to buy an ATM machine, for example, it is hard to see how I would successfully argue that it was for a consumer purpose.

I'm not saying that they are right, or that if you took them to court you couldn't win.
But they have a reasonable initial argument that is unlikely to be dismissed out of hand.
You would have to go to the hassle and cost of instructing Swedish solicitors to sue them.
They are banking on the fact that no one is going to both do that. They are probably right.

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September 08, 2014, 05:49:23 PM
Last edit: September 08, 2014, 06:08:46 PM by s1gs3gv
 #37638

Given the price of this equipment, the number of customers and the potential aggregate loss, it is not unreasonable to believe that a Swedish Advocat could take an interest on a % of recovery basis.

I'm guessing the case would have to be built on deceptive advertising practices (Q2/Q3). They knew there was no way they could ship in Q2.
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September 08, 2014, 11:55:37 PM
 #37639

Freaking illegal and unethical (In the Swedish business climate) as hell of KnC to declare the value of Neptunes to USD 1.000 when they´re bought for USD 9.995



You have it exactly backwards.
Based on earlier posts they are only doing that $1000 cost for the 'bonus' miners.
They should be valued @ 0 since # 1 was valued @ 9,995 when it should have been 4,9997 or some such.

You are suggesting the customers owe tax/customs on $20,000 for 2 miners.
The tax/customs on a free miner should be free.

If you are gonna behave like a sock puppet you could at least be accurate.
There are plenty of things to bitch about without making them up.


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September 09, 2014, 01:26:32 AM
 #37640

Freaking illegal and unethical (In the Swedish business climate) as hell of KnC to declare the value of Neptunes to USD 1.000 when they´re bought for USD 9.995



You have it exactly backwards.
Based on earlier posts they are only doing that $1000 cost for the 'bonus' miners.
They should be valued @ 0 since # 1 was valued @ 9,995 when it should have been 4,9997 or some such.

You are suggesting the customers owe tax/customs on $20,000 for 2 miners.
The tax/customs on a free miner should be free.

If you are gonna behave like a sock puppet you could at least be accurate.
There are plenty of things to bitch about without making them up.


YMMV
Smiley

To ship a miner that cost USD 3.995 in their webstore at that moment and declare the value as USD 1.000 is illegal.
There´s no "price should be", ask Skatteverket.

If it is as you say, and they are now doing that, I retract reason for 'sock puppet' snipe.
They are doing something that benifits the customer at zero customer risk.
Can't have that...

They did declare some @ 10k and some bonus customers are not happy to have to pay any more.
Thats where my 4997 figure came from.


YMMV
Smiley

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