Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[creativex]

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

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[vesperwillow]

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

Until they've failed to deliver the first-gen stuff, they aren't perpetuating any preorder model. What opportunity are they passing up? The first-gen stuff is limited number like the other manufacturers. Second-gen orders are being taken (like other manufacturers), so that the pipes stay fed for constant output.

Little lost on where you went with that.

[creativex]

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

Until they've failed to deliver the first-gen stuff, they aren't perpetuating any preorder model. What opportunity are they passing up? The first-gen stuff is limited number like the other manufacturers. Second-gen orders are being taken (like other manufacturers), so that the pipes stay fed for constant output.

Little lost on where you went with that.

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff(which is actually 2nd gen stuff for the ASIC BTC mining community), but they've offered pre-orders for the very same gear at lower prices for November delivery when they could easily have simply said "no more pre-orders", "no more zero interest loans", "no more offloading 100% of the risk to investors/customers" and instead offered hardware for immediate delivery at premium prices in November and beyond. I understand the appeal of the pre-order model when a vendor is green as they don't likely have the VC funding to cover NRE costs, but knc is essentially playing with house money now and has had a chance to differentiate themselves...they passed.

[ImI]

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

no preorder = no yield

[arlekyn13]

I'm sure that it has been discussed before, but I really don't want to go through 400+ pages to find my answer. My question is about the pre-installed cgminer, more exactly, will it also have the "chosen" pool details already on it? Asking cause I've noticed those fields on the knc website where you can enter your pool of option, worker and so on. Or is that part of the knc website intended for customers that chose knc hosting for the miners? Also, is there a problem if 2 or more miners would mine under the same "worker"?

[vesperwillow]

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

Until they've failed to deliver the first-gen stuff, they aren't perpetuating any preorder model. What opportunity are they passing up? The first-gen stuff is limited number like the other manufacturers. Second-gen orders are being taken (like other manufacturers), so that the pipes stay fed for constant output.

Little lost on where you went with that.

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff(which is actually 2nd gen stuff for the ASIC BTC mining community), but they've offered pre-orders for the very same gear at lower prices for November delivery when they could easily have simply said "no more pre-orders", "no more zero interest loans", "no more offloading 100% of the risk to investors/customers" and instead offered hardware for immediate delivery at premium prices in November and beyond. I understand the appeal of the pre-order model when a vendor is green as they don't likely have the VC funding to cover NRE costs, but knc is essentially playing with house money now and has had a chance to differentiate themselves...they passed.

By generation, I meant their equipment.

As far as I'm concerned, it's still not so much a preorder for 2nd gen stuff. And here's why. They took money in at X cost for a certain number of 1G units, to begin shipping in September, delivered NLT end of October. This money goes to standing up the system, R&D, and getting everything out the door. It doesn't necessarily (and likely couldn't) cover any costs to ensure you have what you need on hand for bundles of future orders.

In order to make sure you can deliver 2G and following generation orders seamlessley--from the drop point of the first batch--you need to order the ingredients. To make sure systems are assembled and ready for delivery (underpromise/overdeliver) you want to get this stuff in asap and get as much of it preassembled as possible. You need money to do this.

Ordering 2G stuff now can get that 30-90 day lead time required. It's essentially similar to what you're describing. Until they, or any OEM, has come to the point where they have plenty of house cash on hand to use, they won't be getting a ton of stuff ordered ahead of time, especially with how technology is changing constantly in this field, and how fast orders are going.

Not to mention, once word gets out they kept their promise, their order queue will burst--I'd say 100x as many orders as before. They don't want to BFL their way through the situation, getting behind on assembly, backordering parts, delays, etc. You need some lead time. Ideally, I'd say a 30 day order-to-delivery window is likely once things get under wrap.

There's no way, short of hella amounts of spare cash, they'll be an order-to-delivery in 1 week company. None of these manufacturers will without significant investment.

...which, I predict, will occur when a large company starts buying their way into this market, by buying out one or more of these small manufacturers. Keep in mind that AMD has been rumored to be working on their own ASIC lineup. Imagine if a company that size stepped into place..,. being able to promise delivery in a week.

Their order queue would blow the barn doors to the next planet.

I'm sure that it has been discussed before, but I really don't want to go through 400+ pages to find my answer. My question is about the pre-installed cgminer, more exactly, will it also have the "chosen" pool details already on it? Asking cause I've noticed those fields on the knc website where you can enter your pool of option, worker and so on. Or is that part of the knc website intended for customers that chose knc hosting for the miners? Also, is there a problem if 2 or more miners would mine under the same "worker"?

You fill in your worker details under your KNC miner account page. It's suggested you don't use the same account for multiple miners.

[WastedLTC]

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff(which is actually 2nd gen stuff for the ASIC BTC mining community), but they've offered pre-orders for the very same gear at lower prices for November delivery when they could easily have simply said "no more pre-orders", "no more zero interest loans", "no more offloading 100% of the risk to investors/customers" and instead offered hardware for immediate delivery at premium prices in November and beyond. I understand the appeal of the pre-order model when a vendor is green as they don't likely have the VC funding to cover NRE costs, but knc is essentially playing with house money now and has had a chance to differentiate themselves...they passed.

Unlike the past orders, you can wait for November 1st and order with KNC at the new prices which they will deliver on around November 15th.  I don't feel this is a pre-order situation since I don't believe they will run out of stock.  The reason they posted the prices now and the dates is to allow people to plan for the future if they wish to buy an ASIC.   If they didn't release this information, consumers may need to look at Cointerra, HashFast, BF, or another company.  

If you don't like pre-orders, just wait and buy one when they are available.  KNC didn't say you need to pay now or you may miss out on the units scheduled for November.

[faetos]

As far as the pre-order model goes they will likely continue this for gen2. I asked them if they would get to a point that we could order stock off the shelf and they said no. They said that the lead time between the pre-order and production would be much shorter.

[Vedran Yoweri]

I'm sure that it has been discussed before, but I really don't want to go through 400+ pages to find my answer. My question is about the pre-installed cgminer, more exactly, will it also have the "chosen" pool details already on it? Asking cause I've noticed those fields on the knc website where you can enter your pool of option, worker and so on. Or is that part of the knc website intended for customers that chose knc hosting for the miners? Also, is there a problem if 2 or more miners would mine under the same "worker"?

For all customers, they will do a test-run before shipping and use these settings so u get the coins.

[creativex]

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff(which is actually 2nd gen stuff for the ASIC BTC mining community), but they've offered pre-orders for the very same gear at lower prices for November delivery when they could easily have simply said "no more pre-orders", "no more zero interest loans", "no more offloading 100% of the risk to investors/customers" and instead offered hardware for immediate delivery at premium prices in November and beyond. I understand the appeal of the pre-order model when a vendor is green as they don't likely have the VC funding to cover NRE costs, but knc is essentially playing with house money now and has had a chance to differentiate themselves...they passed.

Unlike the past orders, you can wait for November 1st and order with KNC at the new prices which they will deliver on around November 15th.  I don't feel this is a pre-order situation since I don't believe they will run out of stock.  The reason they posted the prices now and the dates is to allow people to plan for the future if they wish to buy an ASIC.   If they didn't release this information, consumers may need to look at Cointerra, HashFast, BF, or another company.  

If you don't like pre-orders, just wait and buy one when they are available.  KNC didn't say you need to pay now or you may miss out on the units scheduled for November.

I don't like pre-orders, particularly pre-orders from companies that have yet to deliver products. I don't have a specific problem with knc, I'm actually considering them for future business, I have a problem with the pre-order model which has brutally punished investors in the past. Even those that paid knc in BTC months ago are very unlikely to recover their investment in BTC. It's a horrible model from the perspective of an investor and the market can and will do better, but apparently knc will not be among the companies leading the way in this regard.

[Vedran Yoweri]

I hear ya, but.
It's like a IPO, more risk, more rewards. If a company can play it like that then it has it's place in the high risk column.

[Cablez]

I hear ya, but.
It's like a IPO, more risk, more rewards. If a company can play it like that then it has it's place in the high risk column.

Actually its more risk and minimal to no rewards based on difficulty adjustments lately.  Pretty much not worth it.

[baloo_kiev]

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff

Oh, really? It's already September and nobody has still seen a single hashihg chip.

[RChevalier]

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff

Oh, really? It's already September and nobody has still seen a single hashihg chip.

Nothing wrong with what he said.  That's just his personal opinion and I for one agree.

[kingcoin]

Hopefully OrSoC have all their DRAM in stock for their SO-DIMM embedded Linux systems:

The Korean press reports that a huge explosion and fire in Hynix's fabrication plants 1 and 2 in China may put DRAM shipments on hold for the foreseeable future. Hynix is responsible for about 30% of the world's DRAM production.

More on: http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=1F7BAFAD-A8EA-72BF-E41ABEB0A9EB98B9

Why DRAM???

Because the KnC miner contains an embedded Linux system which is using SDRAM. It would have been sad if the ASIC's arrived but the miners could not be shipped because of insufficient supply of SDRAM. However, it seems like the damage is not as severe as first expected and it appears that OrSoC are using Micron SDRAM (MT48LC16M16A2 by inspecting the photo on their site) so hopefully this will not be a problem other than increased memory prices.

OTOH some claim that the supply/price of graphics cards will be hurt by this accident:

http://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/hynix-ddr-memory-plants-in-fire-after-chemical-explosion-market-in-panic/

[Phoenix1969]

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff

Oh, really? It's already September and nobody has still seen a single hashihg chip.

What did You expect after being told "End of September".... special dispensation?   duh.  
Give it another 16-20 days, then you have my permission to be an idiot.  

[mgio]

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff(which is actually 2nd gen stuff for the ASIC BTC mining community), but they've offered pre-orders for the very same gear at lower prices for November delivery when they could easily have simply said "no more pre-orders", "no more zero interest loans", "no more offloading 100% of the risk to investors/customers" and instead offered hardware for immediate delivery at premium prices in November and beyond. I understand the appeal of the pre-order model when a vendor is green as they don't likely have the VC funding to cover NRE costs, but knc is essentially playing with house money now and has had a chance to differentiate themselves...they passed.

Unlike the past orders, you can wait for November 1st and order with KNC at the new prices which they will deliver on around November 15th.  I don't feel this is a pre-order situation since I don't believe they will run out of stock.  The reason they posted the prices now and the dates is to allow people to plan for the future if they wish to buy an ASIC.   If they didn't release this information, consumers may need to look at Cointerra, HashFast, BF, or another company.  

If you don't like pre-orders, just wait and buy one when they are available.  KNC didn't say you need to pay now or you may miss out on the units scheduled for November.

I don't like pre-orders, particularly pre-orders from companies that have yet to deliver products. I don't have a specific problem with knc, I'm actually considering them for future business, I have a problem with the pre-order model which has brutally punished investors in the past. Even those that paid knc in BTC months ago are very unlikely to recover their investment in BTC. It's a horrible model from the perspective of an investor and the market can and will do better, but apparently knc will not be among the companies leading the way in this regard.

I love the pre-order model. It is the ONLY way to make money unless you are in the business of designing or building ASIC machines yourself.

No company is going to sell hardware for less they can mine with it, unless they have already sold it via pre-order.

It is a risky, but it is only with risk that you will get any reward.

I would never buy a miner UNLESS it was a pre-order. Any miner that is in stock and available and cheap would be sold so quickly that the difficult would rise to the point until the miner was no longer profitable. Or, more likely, the price on the miner would increase to that point (like ASIC Miner did). There is no such thing as a free lunch. No risk, no return.

It's like say, I'm going to wait until that promising startup is successful before I invest. Well if you wait, you are too late. You need to be an early adopter to make money in bitcoin.

[Xialla]

well, honestly it is becoming little unusual.

after ~5 months we have got:

new forum
credit card payments
ugly alu case
rendered chip picture
PSU recommendation
slogan for PCB
updated store with new prices and shipping promise for November
program for resellers
banners
photo of PCB
hosting possibility
network protection statement
KNC in China
..and closed lottery;)

we don't have:

any results from testing
any information from development/progress
any working unit/chip
any photo of complete REAL device
any new video (yes, there were videos before KNC start preordering)
information about shipping date (1st/2nd day explanation)

so instead of information for geeks (photos, videos, testing results, information about chip, overclocking, linux, interface), we are still flooded with "news", which are usually completely useless for majority of us. weeks and months of waiting for...slogan for PCB? o rly? I really don't want to bitching here and troll KNC crew (Bitcoinorama, Bargraphics..), but now ending first week of September and if they want to fullfill their promise, they have to test and ship hundreds of miners within 14 days - and it seems more and more impossible. I'm not HW designer or SW engineer, but if they don't have working prototype yet, they simply can't fulfill their promise in 14 days. (chip testing, PCB assembly, miner assembly, testing, configuring, SW debugging, packaging, shipping hundreds of boxes, hundreds of unexpected trifles)

We don't have any answers of basic questions, all is answered like: we are on plan, we ship in September. hmm, splendid..but as far as I know, September is even in Sweden.

[Phoenix1969]

yes WE have, YOU just can't read

[Xialla]

yes WE have, YOU just can't read

ohh, another superclever member of KNC crew;)

please answer me:

any results from testing - I heard something about 100GH/s but without any prove
any information from development/progress - pls check bitfury thread to see, what I mean
any working unit/chip - or we have? please, where?
any photo of complete REAL device - where?
any new video (yes, there were videos before KNC start preordering) - where?
information about shipping date (1st/2nd day explanation) - where?

once you will answer all my questions, I will admit my fault.