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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26390175 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JayJuanGee
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October 06, 2020, 01:02:34 AM
Merited by El duderino_ (2), 600watt (2)

Battles for the mindspace can take a lot of time,

Indeed.  That is why it is important to discuss these issues publicly.

What happens if nobody steps up and says it?

* nullius is nobody.

Of course, in some sense, you are preaching to the choir, nullius.

With you, perhaps, and with a good number of WO regulars.  I think that you and I are in basic agreement about many of these issues, although I think that perhaps here, I needed to clarify a few points on which you may have slightly mistaken my own position.

But then, there is that “mindspace” thing that you mentioned.

Why yes, let’s create a highly regulated derivatives market (replete with regulatory capture by the biggest and worst criminals), in which highly profitable (and oftentimes massive-clusterfuck-crash grade risky) financial products can be offered by those who (have teams of lawyers to pretend to) obey the (loophole-ridden exact letter of the) regulations.  Let’s create a regulated “digital assets industry” (in which the sharks with big money and big lawyers can just eat everybody else alive).  While we’re at it—let’s recreate the fractional reserve central banking system!  You know, as long as this MAX_MONEY thing is in place, Bitcoin will always be subject to more or less price volatility.  A beneficent central bank is like the governor on the economic engine—or like speed limits...

So, why do we have Bitcoin?

How are you going to stop those kinds of BIGGER players from coming into the space?

I don't see how we can necessarily have our cake and eat it too... One of the network effects in bitcoin is the increased financialization of the asset, and sure there might be attempts to denigrate bitcoin or to use bitcoin in the same kinds of ways that they have fucked up other asset classes, but you and I both recognize a distinguishing feature of bitcoin that changes the dynamics, and that is to be able to immediately claim possession of it.  If we enter into relationships with third parties in which we are NOT capable of either requesting or obtaining immediate possession of our coins, then we have chosen to disempower our lil selfies, and there are a large number of current BTC HODLers who recognize such power.. whether they are a minority or a majority, probably does not take away the power of that use case.. and many of us recognize other powers of bitcoin too.. and perhaps the value that others are able to use bitcoin in ways that we might NOT be using bitcoin, but still bring both power and value to bitcoin.

I am just saying that there is no way to keep some of the potentially bad actors out, nor abilities to cause them from attempting to be successful in their various manipulation attempts... but the mere fact that they have a lot of resources to manipulate does not necessarily mean that they understand bitcoin well enough to know that the odds might NOT be so much in their favor to be able to manipulate bitcoin in certain ways or beyond certain points.. but they might NOT realize such aspects of bitcoin until they make such attempts..

Remember fall 2017.. very interesting lessons for some BIG players trying to teach bitcoin some lessons but ending up getting schooled their lil selfies.  I remember.  There are other bitcoiners who remember, too, including some of the active members in this thread and including other parts of bitcoinlandia too, and may not be participating in this thread.
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October 06, 2020, 01:04:17 AM

I want to say Ghost was McAfee's last foray into shitcoin shillery but he has one other thing going on that I see people advertising in their sigs occasionally.

I sold all my Ghost and that gave me a huge lost of ETH. There is a German saying "besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende"; that means: "better an end with horror, than an endless horror".  

....

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ghost/markets/

Before I bought Ghost I understood on a logical level why so many people hate McAfee, but now - after loosing a lot of ETH and a lot of Lifetime - I feel that hate towards McAfee and my own greed. It's time to listen to Eckharte Tolle to come back to the present, get ride of this negative emotion of my past, and finding inner peace again.

(originally the guy said he lost 35 ETH but he edited his comment today -- wonder if that's a sign he made "inner peace" -- lol)
nullius
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October 06, 2020, 03:15:17 AM


Damn...  Something about that photo makes me feel that I need a bath...  First LFC, then this thing in juxtaposition... oh, the ugly mental images... Thanks; now, I need to squirt bleach into my eyes to stop the pain.

I think that I will start calling McAfee the Shitcoin Bill Clinton.  He reminds me of Clinton, for some strange reason.  But if possible, even more pathetic emetic.

Wrong and wronger don’t make right.  Ugly mess from start to finish...  Just lock that degenerate up alone in a room with a few kilos of the finest cocaine, and nothing else to do.  It will be a self-solving problem.



Why yes, let’s create a highly regulated derivatives market (replete with regulatory capture by the biggest and worst criminals), in which highly profitable (and oftentimes massive-clusterfuck-crash grade risky) financial products can be offered by those who (have teams of lawyers to pretend to) obey the (loophole-ridden exact letter of the) regulations.  Let’s create a regulated “digital assets industry” (in which the sharks with big money and big lawyers can just eat everybody else alive).  While we’re at it—let’s recreate the fractional reserve central banking system!  You know, as long as this MAX_MONEY thing is in place, Bitcoin will always be subject to more or less price volatility.  A beneficent central bank is like the governor on the economic engine—or like speed limits...

So, why do we have Bitcoin?

How are you going to stop those kinds of BIGGER players from coming into the space?

I don't see how we can necessarily have our cake and eat it too... One of the network effects in bitcoin is the increased financialization of the asset, and sure there might be attempts to denigrate bitcoin or to use bitcoin in the same kinds of ways that they have fucked up other asset classes, but you and I both recognize a distinguishing feature of bitcoin that changes the dynamics, and that is to be able to immediately claim possession of it. [...]

I am saying that they can’t have their Bitcake and eat it, too.

I don’t fancy that I could stop “those kinds of BIGGER players”, a.k.a. massive financial manipulators, from creating risky derivative clusterfucks.  I have said that a few times, in various places here.  My point is about regulation—especially, but not only, extra-jursidictional regulation by the Americans!

In the long term, the financial instruments and practices that I criticize can survive only in a regulated environment—viz., in the type of systemically corrupt-by-design regulatory environment at which Americans most excel (although with the advanced Progress™ of the current year, no country is very much better in that regard).  There, they are protected from natural consequences.  Quotable nullius:  In the soil of regulatory corruption, the seeds of folly grow “too big to fail”.  You know the end of that road!  “The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks”  Right back where we started.

Bitcoin can get along much better without Nanny American-CFTC pretending to protect it, and actually doing the long-term opposite.  Let people do things that I dislike with Bitcoin; no matter how I may wish that I were Imperator, dictator perpetuo with the power to stop them, it seems that I’m not, and I can’t.  And they are not protected from failing.  Ultimately, when the moral hazards created by regulations go away, people must learn to stop doing the hazardous things—or else, the people creating the hazards just go bankrupt.  As I have said before, in Bitcoin, the risk is not systemic.

—Unless, that is, Bitcoiners get the attitude that we need to recreate the exact same financial system that we are trying to escape.  But now, with Blockchain™!  “The Times 03/Jan/2029 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for Blockchain banks”

Damn, on which point did I recently find myself quoting Karl Marx!?
Not that I would expect for [most people] to know enough political theory to be self-aware on this point—or to possess self-awareness on any point.


“Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice.  He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.” — Karl Marx


A stage prop.
Blockchain needs Blockchain regulation for Blockchain banks to Blockchain innovate Blockchain in the Blockchain digital assets market Fintech Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain B̵͚̪̼̦͝l̶̝͈̀o̴̯̮̓̇̽̽c̵̝̪̘̜̊̄̎k̴̹͔̝̺͋̾̋̀̾͠͝ͅc̷̛̣͐̐͗͆̎̅h̶̢̭̥̻̘̔́̒͐̈͂̐͜â̴̧̼͈̼̦̅͝i̸͇͈͚̚͘n̸̜̤͙͌̊͛ ̴͕̗͍̜͈̤͓͑͝B̷͎͍̤̥̥̲́̅l̷̛̙̐̉̃͋̕͝ǒ̷̼̹͇̱̳̒c̶̥̯̋̃ḳ̷̑ĉ̵̱͑͛͝h̵̳̦͚̣̓̂̚ͅa̵̹̿͗̀͜͝i̶̢͎͎̺͎̩̪̋̏̔̚͠͠n̶̟̟̯͓͇̘̖͒͊̅̓̄͝ ̶̨̲̪̟̘̫̀B̵̞̲̮͚͈̾͂̈́̊̆͜͠l̸̙̠͈̗̖̫̥̊̔͑́͘̕͝o̷̢̜͍̟̬̍͘͠č̸̘͠k̶͎̜͎̔͛̈́̾̚c̸͈͆h̷͚̞͍̞͛̾̉̈̓̆ͅa̴̫̬̱͖̩͓͒̒̈́̅̈́̅̕ͅì̷̢̪̻̄̒͊n̴̨̛̹̭̙̜̋́̌́͂ͅ ̴̗̪̰̤͙͇́̆͒͒B̵̳̘̄l̸͕͓̣̈̑͗̊͘͘ơ̷̧̻̠̞̫̈́͗c̸͍̠̮̪̟̪̽̓̃̒̾̕k̸̠̯̤͈͎͚̮͘͘č̴̗̼͍̒̈̃͠ḧ̸̨̗̩̠̫̀͑̐̚a̶̯̺̤͍̰̽ȋ̵̡͓̤͈͍̞̘̇̕n̴̨̢̢̟̪̫̾͒̈̒͝ ̸̩̟̥̆ͅB̶̨̨̰̯̮̪̣̏͊̊l̶̢̡̛̻̱̄͛͝͝ǫ̶̺̦͌̈́̕c̸̪̈́̅͒̋̕͘͜ͅk̸̛̺͐c̷̢̛̻̽͊̍́̋͝ͅh̵̢̻̣̰̪͕̜̄͑â̸̯̠i̶͖̣̺͗̈́̈́̓͒͝n̴̖̘͂ ̶̠̠̭̞̕B̸̹̘̑l̷͙̘̻̺̥̤̋̈́̀ơ̷̳̮̅̾̽̅̑c̷̡̦̘̖͛͐͆̃̚͜ͅk̷̃̃̑͋̕͘͜ç̸̣̽͐͐h̴͈̻̳͂̓̔͋́̋ậ̵̞̪̼̈́̏͋́̚͠i̵͔͖͉̾͌͆͆̈́̑ͅn̷̛̠͓͔̦̪͌́ͅ ̷̨̖̺̫̺̄B̴͓̣̬̮͚͓̓̽l̵̼̟̻̰̥̫͛̏̓̕ǫ̴̡͕̝̤̩̌ͅc̵̫̭̝̉̃͌̕͝k̴͈̥̹͚̞̥̉͂̑ċ̷̪̮̘̈́͠h̷͇͋̐͗͜a̵̛̲͗̊͌ï̷̡̯̟͔͠ň̶̺̥͍͕͎ͅ ̶̡̡̝́̋̌͒́ͅB̵̨̭̣̮̯͑͜l̵̬̣̻͔͖̈́̀̂͗͝͝ơ̵̢̘̯̰̎͐̑̃c̸͉̼͚͎͔͓͌̃̕ͅk̶̎̀̍̃̊̌͜c̷̖̋̋h̶̗͚̮̱̞̹̑̎̌͝a̷̧͇͚͓͆̅̚ȉ̶̳̽͒̓̈́̿ǹ̴̫̼̰ ̵̲̮͈̜̪̜̇̉̃͛͝B̷̧̖̰̽̎̋̎̔̈́͠l̸̖̬̩̏͌͛̈̀̄o̴̰͙̅͒͌͆̄̓͜͝ċ̷͓̊̄͌̉͠k̷̢̪̰̙̝̀̏c̵̲̳͔̹̽̍͒̑͜ḣ̴̪͎̱͍̭̋̀͒̅a̵̝̭̻̰̟̋͌͝i̴̯̜̦̻̓̀̓̍͌̀͝n̷̡͚̦̖͊̈̏ ̶̧͕̜͛̀̀̓B̷̧̭̠̦̮̋̓͝l̶͔̻̂͐̃̒͝ȍ̶͖̼͉̣͛̃̈̽c̵̫͈̹̫͚͔̊̆͋͐͜ķ̴̧̰͋̿̑c̴̨̛͕̠̯̱̣̭͂̑h̶͙͈̙́ͅa̴̞̱̟̩̞͈̝͋͝i̵̧̪̰͆̀̃ņ̵͍̞̝̀͐̚ ̴̖͒́B̴̬̐̆͐l̶̢̧̲̤̰͖͐̂͐̽ǫ̵̧̰̥̗̰̃c̷̬̫̹̫̈́̓͋́̋k̵̪̮̉c̶̹͂́͐̉̅̅͝ͅẖ̵͕̖͙̖̪̆̓̉͒̅̓̌ǎ̴̛̫̼̩͙̓͒̈̑͝i̸̜̝͍̻͐̓̿̈́͜͠ṋ̴̨̫̭̟̔̕͜ ̷̤̘̘̙̝̽͛͑͆̂̚͜B̸̢̪̳̰̐͋́̅͐̚͘l̶̼͔͈̜͌̏ỏ̴̞͜c̴̭͙̞̜͊͂̈̈́͑̕k̵͔͕̞̳̂̈́͒͗̎c̵̡̟̥̝̏h̴̖̩̫͑͠ä̶̢̡̛͙̲̦́̐̽̑͘͝į̷̩̯̩̹̈́͊́͘n̸̳̠̅̑


Extra boldface has been added to this post, because I’m afraid the size=smaller parts of my above-quoted post were too shy to get attention.

N.b., I am NOT a follower of Rand, or Rothbard, or Mises, any of those schools of thought that are so popular in this space.  I don’t idealize Capitalism—to the contrary; as a modern dogma, it is the flipside of Communism.  (Title of Marxist Bible: Capital.)  I am not a votive at the altar of the Invisible Hand of the Free Market.  I do not fancy that market economics could create Utopia (or, for that matter, that Utopia would not actually be Dystopia).

I simply realize that at this point in history, the very best that we can do is to NOT take “cures” that are worse than the disease.  Hailing the intervention of the American CFTC in the Bitcoin markets outside American jurisdiction is like infecting yourself with HIV because you are worried about Covid.  You still have the original worry—and now, you have a much worse problem!

I said earlier in this thread about BitMEX, in reply to ivomm’s speculation about CME (so to speak), with boldface in the original:

If it is not something that can be done safely in an unregulated market, then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in an unregulated market.  Don’t try to create the clusterfork of the bank-run financial markets in Bitcoin.

Thus concluded a post which began, with large boldface in the original:

Who appointed the United States and its institutions to supervise Bitcoin?
philipma1957
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October 06, 2020, 03:21:44 AM


Damn...  Something about that photo makes me feel that I need a bath...  First LFC, then this thing in juxtaposition... oh, the ugly mental images... Thanks; now, I need to squirt bleach into my eyes to stop the pain.

I think that I will start calling McAfee the Shitcoin Bill Clinton.  He reminds me of Clinton, for some strange reason.  But if possible, even more pathetic emetic.

Wrong and wronger don’t make right.  Ugly mess from start to finish...  Just lock that degenerate up alone in a room with a few kilos of the finest cocaine, and nothing else to do.  It will be a self-solving problem.



Why yes, let’s create a highly regulated derivatives market (replete with regulatory capture by the biggest and worst criminals), in which highly profitable (and oftentimes massive-clusterfuck-crash grade risky) financial products can be offered by those who (have teams of lawyers to pretend to) obey the (loophole-ridden exact letter of the) regulations.  Let’s create a regulated “digital assets industry” (in which the sharks with big money and big lawyers can just eat everybody else alive).  While we’re at it—let’s recreate the fractional reserve central banking system!  You know, as long as this MAX_MONEY thing is in place, Bitcoin will always be subject to more or less price volatility.  A beneficent central bank is like the governor on the economic engine—or like speed limits...

So, why do we have Bitcoin?

How are you going to stop those kinds of BIGGER players from coming into the space?

I don't see how we can necessarily have our cake and eat it too... One of the network effects in bitcoin is the increased financialization of the asset, and sure there might be attempts to denigrate bitcoin or to use bitcoin in the same kinds of ways that they have fucked up other asset classes, but you and I both recognize a distinguishing feature of bitcoin that changes the dynamics, and that is to be able to immediately claim possession of it. [...]

I am saying that they can’t have their Bitcake and eat it, too.

I don’t fancy that I could stop “those kinds of BIGGER players”, a.k.a. massive financial manipulators, from creating risky derivative clusterfucks.  I have said that a few times, in various places here.  My point is about regulation—especially, but not only, extra-jursidictional regulation by the Americans!

In the long term, the financial instruments and practices that I criticize can survive only in a regulated environment—viz., in the type of systemically corrupt-by-design regulatory environment at which Americans most excel (although with the advanced Progress™ of the current year, no country is very much better in that regard).  There, they are protected from natural consequences.  Quotable nullius:  In the soil of regulatory corruption, the seeds of folly grow “too big to fail”.  You know the end of that road!  “The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks”  Right back where we started.

Bitcoin can get along much better without Nanny American-CFTC pretending to protect it, and actually doing the long-term opposite.  Let people do things that I dislike with Bitcoin; no matter how I may wish that I were Imperator, dictator perpetuo with the power to stop them, it seems that I’m not, and I can’t.  And they are not protected from failing.  Ultimately, when the moral hazards created by regulations go away, people must learn to stop doing the hazardous things—or else, the people creating the hazards just go bankrupt.  As I have said before, in Bitcoin, the risk is not systemic.

—Unless, that is, Bitcoiners get the attitude that we need to recreate the exact same financial system that we are trying to escape.  But now, with Blockchain™!  “The Times 03/Jan/2029 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for Blockchain banks”

Damn, on which point did I recently find myself quoting Karl Marx!?
Not that I would expect for [most people] to know enough political theory to be self-aware on this point—or to possess self-awareness on any point.


“Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice.  He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.” — Karl Marx


A stage prop.
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Extra boldface has been added to this post, because I’m afraid the size=smaller parts of my above-quoted post were too shy to get attention.

N.b., I am NOT a follower of Rand, or Rothbard, or Mises, any of those schools of thought that are so popular in this space.  I don’t idealize Capitalism—to the contrary; as a modern dogma, it is the flipside of Communism.  (Title of Marxist Bible: Capital.)  I am not a votive at the altar of the Invisible Hand of the Free Market.  I do not fancy that market economics could create Utopia (or, for that matter, that Utopia would not actually be Dystopia).

I simply realize that at this point in history, the very best that we can do is to NOT take “cures” that are worse than the disease.  Hailing the intervention of the American CFTC in the Bitcoin markets outside American jurisdiction is like infecting yourself with HIV because you are worried about Covid.  You still have the original worry—and now, you have a much worse problem!

I said earlier in this thread about BitMEX, in reply to ivomm’s speculation about CME (so to speak), with boldface in the original:

If it is not something that can be done safely in an unregulated market, then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in an unregulated market.  Don’t try to create the clusterfork of the bank-run financial markets in Bitcoin.

Thus concluded a post which began, with large boldface in the original:

Who appointed the United States and its institutions to supervise Bitcoin?
Bigger and bolder type  he is your answer:

Trump
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October 06, 2020, 03:32:00 AM
Last edit: October 06, 2020, 03:53:11 AM by nullius

If it is not something that can be done safely in an unregulated market, then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in an unregulated market.  Don’t try to create the clusterfork of the bank-run financial markets in Bitcoin.

Thus concluded a post which began, with large boldface in the original:

Who appointed the United States and its institutions to supervise Bitcoin?
Bigger and bolder type  he is your answer:

Trump

If that is all that you got out of what I wrote, well...



You fancy that Bank-Owned Megalomaniac Biden (Diet Pepsi, (D)) be better than Bank-Owned Megalomaniac Trump (Coca-Cola, (R))?  (Or to others:  Vice versa?)  Protip:  They are both Americans.  They would both happily firebomb the whole world to smouldering rubble at the drop of a hat—or regulate Bitcoin into another bankster playground—or do whatever else the owners of the United States may desire.


Oh, this needs for me to pause from spending too much forum time in WO, and finish that thing that I have been intending to toss into P&S.  Meanwhile:

Universal suffrage is vote inflation.  Making everybody “free” by giving everybody a vote is like making everybody “rich” by printing lots of money.

Yes, that is an original observation on my part.  Analogy credit: nullius.

[...]

Tweedledum and Tweedledee
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October 06, 2020, 05:18:24 AM



Well, I don't know about Lambos, but McAfee appears to have sorted the "hookers & blow" part. That's something...

I hated that guy the moment I installed McAfee Anti-Virus on my PC several decades ago...
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October 06, 2020, 05:44:44 AM


Omg are those trannies? This girl has bigger biceps than McAffee...   Grin
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October 06, 2020, 06:36:15 AM

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October 06, 2020, 06:59:22 AM

https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1313139040246521857

Fleetwood Mac meme USG paid thug edition feat. War Dog

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October 06, 2020, 07:24:48 AM
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https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1313213206211461127
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October 06, 2020, 08:20:15 AM

@JJG

I don’t think Bitmex-gate is going to affect us too much. I’m still thinking that we moon in 2021, there is perhaps a chance that covid could stop us going as high as we would have but yeah, I still think we moon next year.
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October 06, 2020, 08:38:39 AM

Quote from: nullius on October 03, 2020, 11:09:00 PM
Who appointed the United States and its institutions to supervise Bitcoin?



Since Bitcoin is "Decentralized" in nature, it does not need anyones permission to do that Tongue
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October 06, 2020, 08:42:02 AM
Last edit: October 06, 2020, 08:56:53 AM by AlcoHoDL
Merited by El duderino_ (2), LFC_Bitcoin (1), 600watt (1), strawbs (1)


(...)

I seriously worry about being able to "cash out" when "fuck you" rich. I fear that, by that time, all the cameras, guns, machetes, rusty pipes and what have you, will be pointing at us HoDLers, even going so far as to label us criminals, DPR v.2 (or is it v.3?), or some other "guilty-until-proven-innocent" accusation. It all depends on how "accepted" Bitcoin will be at that point. And, as you know, timescales in Bitcoin time are very short, meaning that we'll know quite soon. It's all good to imagine an ideal world where TPTB have accepted and even endorsed Bitcoin, but I don't think this will be an easy battle. We may win, but there will be blood.

Of course this "cashing out" may not even be necessary, if things play out in Bitcoin's favour, and BTC (or satoshi, or whatever fraction of a satoshi results from a 2nd layer solution, should 1 BTC > $1M) ends up being usable in buying everyday goods and services. This would be an ideal situation, in which BTC's intrinsic value stays in the BTC realm and we directly use it to survive (food, shelter, Lambos, hookers, blow, the usual necessities). But, somehow, I don't think it will be that easy. Not when the establishment sees their power taken away. They won't surrender without a fight.

My advice is to be prepared for any possible outcome. Personally, I'm more exposed to BTC than I am to more traditional investments, but I can surely survive (and ever enjoy the occasional little pleasures—but nowhere near "fuck you" rich status) without touching my BTC. I just follow the "invest what you can afford to lose" motto, while at the same time supporting and firmly believing that Bitcoin will succeed.

In short, as Bitcoin's value is rising, my feelings are bittersweet. Sweeter than bitter, of course, but there's always that aftertaste you get when chewing a dirty piece of paper...

(...)


Alcohodl, it is ok to get fkn rich due to years of hardened bitcoin hodl. you don't need to be scared. you earned it and folks will admire you for it. I doubt that bitcoiners will have to fear getting robbed more than the casual millionaire next door.

you deserve it because you went down the rabbit whole and put money in some magic internet money shit when everyone laughed about it. you helped this revolution get ignited, you carried the torch in a critical time of its existence. when it was vulnerable.

the bitcoin KI will not forget you and will reward you royally.

it will be easy. the difficult times were the gut wrenching multiyear bears. the next difficult times are now. but the future is bright, bro.

and.. how do you sleep with less than 90% bitcoin exposure?  Cheesy

Thanks man, I appreciate the comment, which applies to most of us here.

About exposure, yeah, this is the only thing I'll regret when we moon. The fiat I could've invested in BTC, but didn't... Well, it is what it is, now I'm in HoDL mode and will wait it out.

As LFC says, we may get there next year. I'm OK even if we get there in 2022-2023. Of course, "getting there" means different things to different people. For me, it means BTC = $100k. I do expect BTC to reach far higher values than this though, even reaching $1M and beyond.

We'll know soon enough.



[...]

Thanks, AlcoHoDL.

Thanks Jay, for your long (as always [saying this in a good way]), but thorough and merit-worthy reply, I appreciate it.

We are in agreement, and there's no need to reiterate what you already know.



You guys are lovely.
Wish I knew you IRL.
OPSEC is a bitch!

#nohomohaiku



Edit: Added comment to JJG's post, and a haiku for you fucks!
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October 06, 2020, 08:48:30 AM

meme USG paid thug edition

We need a dedicated forum for that.  Or at least, a dedicated thread moderated by someone smart, who does not sometimes disappear for indeterminate times.

Really, it could be a whole forum.

Who is Fleetwood Mac?




I meant to thank you for this; but my response became a wordy-man essay, which in turn grew into the rough draft of a twelve-volume series:

I always knew that the Communists hate me!

The enmity is requited.
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October 06, 2020, 08:50:37 AM

Not to defend McAfee but an international arrest warrant for tax evasion is not really great (and I'm not condoning tax evasion).

He should have stayed in a country that is a bit less a puppet of the US.
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October 06, 2020, 08:52:10 AM

Not to defend McAfee but an international arrest warrant for tax evasion is not really great (and I'm not condoning tax evasion).

He should have stayed in a country that is a bit less a puppet of the US.

ftfy
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October 06, 2020, 08:59:26 AM

McAfee

Wrong...

international arrest warrant for tax evasion

...and wronger.  Do not make right.

He should have stayed in a country that is a bit less a puppet of the US.

LOL.  Which?

Neither of them would want him; and one is overtly Communist.
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October 06, 2020, 09:18:23 AM

LOL.  Which?

Neither of them would want him; and one is overtly Communist.

I'm not sure which one you mean, but since he speaks Spanish, Cuba should be fine.
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October 06, 2020, 09:30:17 AM


[edited out]

I am saying that they can’t have their Bitcake and eat it, too.

I don’t fancy that I could stop “those kinds of BIGGER players”, a.k.a. massive financial manipulators, from creating risky derivative clusterfucks.  I have said that a few times, in various places here.  My point is about regulation—especially, but not only, extra-jursidictional regulation by the Americans!

In the long term, the financial instruments and practices that I criticize can survive only in a regulated environment—viz., in the type of systemically corrupt-by-design regulatory environment at which Americans most excel (although with the advanced Progress™ of the current year, no country is very much better in that regard).  

Of course, with the passage of time, legal and financial systems become more complicated and intertwined, and I am with you.  I do not necessarily presume that all passage of time brings progress or that all societal changes are progressing towards better.. those are social constructions that are dangerous to presume.

Bitcoin does provide incentives and options that have the potential to make some of the traditional systems to become more honest - but we should NOT expect that those old systems are going to just go away with a kind of "poof" sound.


There, they are protected from natural consequences.  Quotable nullius:  In the soil of regulatory corruption, the seeds of folly grow “too big to fail”.  You know the end of that road!  “The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks”  Right back where we started.

Bitcoin can get along much better without Nanny American-CFTC pretending to protect it, and actually doing the long-term opposite.  

How you gonna keep them out?  I don't have a problem trying to figure out ways to make systems evolve better, but there still seems to be ONLY so much any of us can do before we start fantasizing about the ought rather than attempting to structure our own finances and psychology for the "is" rather than various forms of the "ought" that may or may not come about.

Let people do things that I dislike with Bitcoin; no matter how I may wish that I were Imperator, dictator perpetuo with the power to stop them, it seems that I’m not, and I can’t.  

Sure.. there is only so much that each of us can do, and of course, some people become motivated to change their position in order to have more influences in making changes that they would like to see, too.


And they are not protected from failing.  

Whether quickly or slowly, sure.

Some of us would like some of the shitcoins to die, too, and largely we have to figure out ways to deal with them, because some of them are going to end up surviving way longer than we would like, and perhaps even longer than they should.

All shitcoins, be gone!!!!!!!!    I have just proclaimed, it.   Shocked Shocked Shocked   Let me look outside and see if any changes have taken place.    Tongue Tongue Tongue

Ultimately, when the moral hazards created by regulations go away, people must learn to stop doing the hazardous things—or else, the people creating the hazards just go bankrupt.  As I have said before, in Bitcoin, the risk is not systemic.

I must disclose that you are starting to evolve (or perhaps devolve) into more abstraction than I am willing to entertain... #nohomo.


—Unless, that is, Bitcoiners get the attitude that we need to recreate the exact same financial system that we are trying to escape.  But now, with Blockchain™!  “The Times 03/Jan/2029 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for Blockchain banks”

Damn, on which point did I recently find myself quoting Karl Marx!?
Not that I would expect for [most people] to know enough political theory to be self-aware on this point—or to possess self-awareness on any point.


“Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice.  He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.” — Karl Marx


A stage prop.
Blockchain needs Blockchain regulation for Blockchain banks to Blockchain innovate Blockchain in the Blockchain digital assets market Fintech Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain Blockchain B̵͚̪̼̦͝l̶̝͈̀o̴̯̮̓̇̽̽c̵̝̪̘̜̊̄̎k̴̹͔̝̺͋̾̋̀̾͠͝ͅc̷̛̣͐̐͗͆̎̅h̶̢̭̥̻̘̔́̒͐̈͂̐͜â̴̧̼͈̼̦̅͝i̸͇͈͚̚͘n̸̜̤͙͌̊͛ ̴͕̗͍̜͈̤͓͑͝B̷͎͍̤̥̥̲́̅l̷̛̙̐̉̃͋̕͝ǒ̷̼̹͇̱̳̒c̶̥̯̋̃ḳ̷̑ĉ̵̱͑͛͝h̵̳̦͚̣̓̂̚ͅa̵̹̿͗̀͜͝i̶̢͎͎̺͎̩̪̋̏̔̚͠͠n̶̟̟̯͓͇̘̖͒͊̅̓̄͝ ̶̨̲̪̟̘̫̀B̵̞̲̮͚͈̾͂̈́̊̆͜͠l̸̙̠͈̗̖̫̥̊̔͑́͘̕͝o̷̢̜͍̟̬̍͘͠č̸̘͠k̶͎̜͎̔͛̈́̾̚c̸͈͆h̷͚̞͍̞͛̾̉̈̓̆ͅa̴̫̬̱͖̩͓͒̒̈́̅̈́̅̕ͅì̷̢̪̻̄̒͊n̴̨̛̹̭̙̜̋́̌́͂ͅ ̴̗̪̰̤͙͇́̆͒͒B̵̳̘̄l̸͕͓̣̈̑͗̊͘͘ơ̷̧̻̠̞̫̈́͗c̸͍̠̮̪̟̪̽̓̃̒̾̕k̸̠̯̤͈͎͚̮͘͘č̴̗̼͍̒̈̃͠ḧ̸̨̗̩̠̫̀͑̐̚a̶̯̺̤͍̰̽ȋ̵̡͓̤͈͍̞̘̇̕n̴̨̢̢̟̪̫̾͒̈̒͝ ̸̩̟̥̆ͅB̶̨̨̰̯̮̪̣̏͊̊l̶̢̡̛̻̱̄͛͝͝ǫ̶̺̦͌̈́̕c̸̪̈́̅͒̋̕͘͜ͅk̸̛̺͐c̷̢̛̻̽͊̍́̋͝ͅh̵̢̻̣̰̪͕̜̄͑â̸̯̠i̶͖̣̺͗̈́̈́̓͒͝n̴̖̘͂ ̶̠̠̭̞̕B̸̹̘̑l̷͙̘̻̺̥̤̋̈́̀ơ̷̳̮̅̾̽̅̑c̷̡̦̘̖͛͐͆̃̚͜ͅk̷̃̃̑͋̕͘͜ç̸̣̽͐͐h̴͈̻̳͂̓̔͋́̋ậ̵̞̪̼̈́̏͋́̚͠i̵͔͖͉̾͌͆͆̈́̑ͅn̷̛̠͓͔̦̪͌́ͅ ̷̨̖̺̫̺̄B̴͓̣̬̮͚͓̓̽l̵̼̟̻̰̥̫͛̏̓̕ǫ̴̡͕̝̤̩̌ͅc̵̫̭̝̉̃͌̕͝k̴͈̥̹͚̞̥̉͂̑ċ̷̪̮̘̈́͠h̷͇͋̐͗͜a̵̛̲͗̊͌ï̷̡̯̟͔͠ň̶̺̥͍͕͎ͅ ̶̡̡̝́̋̌͒́ͅB̵̨̭̣̮̯͑͜l̵̬̣̻͔͖̈́̀̂͗͝͝ơ̵̢̘̯̰̎͐̑̃c̸͉̼͚͎͔͓͌̃̕ͅk̶̎̀̍̃̊̌͜c̷̖̋̋h̶̗͚̮̱̞̹̑̎̌͝a̷̧͇͚͓͆̅̚ȉ̶̳̽͒̓̈́̿ǹ̴̫̼̰ ̵̲̮͈̜̪̜̇̉̃͛͝B̷̧̖̰̽̎̋̎̔̈́͠l̸̖̬̩̏͌͛̈̀̄o̴̰͙̅͒͌͆̄̓͜͝ċ̷͓̊̄͌̉͠k̷̢̪̰̙̝̀̏c̵̲̳͔̹̽̍͒̑͜ḣ̴̪͎̱͍̭̋̀͒̅a̵̝̭̻̰̟̋͌͝i̴̯̜̦̻̓̀̓̍͌̀͝n̷̡͚̦̖͊̈̏ ̶̧͕̜͛̀̀̓B̷̧̭̠̦̮̋̓͝l̶͔̻̂͐̃̒͝ȍ̶͖̼͉̣͛̃̈̽c̵̫͈̹̫͚͔̊̆͋͐͜ķ̴̧̰͋̿̑c̴̨̛͕̠̯̱̣̭͂̑h̶͙͈̙́ͅa̴̞̱̟̩̞͈̝͋͝i̵̧̪̰͆̀̃ņ̵͍̞̝̀͐̚ ̴̖͒́B̴̬̐̆͐l̶̢̧̲̤̰͖͐̂͐̽ǫ̵̧̰̥̗̰̃c̷̬̫̹̫̈́̓͋́̋k̵̪̮̉c̶̹͂́͐̉̅̅͝ͅẖ̵͕̖͙̖̪̆̓̉͒̅̓̌ǎ̴̛̫̼̩͙̓͒̈̑͝i̸̜̝͍̻͐̓̿̈́͜͠ṋ̴̨̫̭̟̔̕͜ ̷̤̘̘̙̝̽͛͑͆̂̚͜B̸̢̪̳̰̐͋́̅͐̚͘l̶̼͔͈̜͌̏ỏ̴̞͜c̴̭͙̞̜͊͂̈̈́͑̕k̵͔͕̞̳̂̈́͒͗̎c̵̡̟̥̝̏h̴̖̩̫͑͠ä̶̢̡̛͙̲̦́̐̽̑͘͝į̷̩̯̩̹̈́͊́͘n̸̳̠̅̑


Extra boldface has been added to this post, because I’m afraid the size=smaller parts of my above-quoted post were too shy to get attention.

N.b., I am NOT a follower of Rand, or Rothbard, or Mises, any of those schools of thought that are so popular in this space.  I don’t idealize Capitalism—to the contrary; as a modern dogma, it is the flipside of Communism.  (Title of Marxist Bible: Capital.)  I am not a votive at the altar of the Invisible Hand of the Free Market.  I do not fancy that market economics could create Utopia (or, for that matter, that Utopia would not actually be Dystopia).

Of course, we have a combination of a variety of values in which bitcoin's global impact helps us to reconsider some of the various paradigms and where bitcoin might fit into already existing systems and societal thought patters around how some of these systems are rewarding /punishing people.

I simply realize that at this point in history, the very best that we can do is to NOT take “cures” that are worse than the disease.  

You are referring to the "royal we?"  Each of us does need to figure out our place in bitcoin, and surely if we want to attempt to influence legislation, banking or judicial systems, we might need to get involved in some of those areas.  Alternatively, there is development, too.  Or just sitting back and commenting on various forums and hoping some others are inspired by our thoughts?

Hailing the intervention of the American CFTC in the Bitcoin markets outside American jurisdiction is like infecting yourself with HIV because you are worried about Covid.  You still have the original worry—and now, you have a much worse problem!


I do think that we have to take some of these institutional interventions (like the CFTC) with a grain of salt, and so you are correct that we might not want to just start applauding them without some skepticisms... even though some people do want these kinds of institutional and governmental interventions to feel more comfortable with bitcoin as an investment or even to feel more comfortable holding it or using it.


I said earlier in this thread about BitMEX, in reply to ivomm’s speculation about CME (so to speak), with boldface in the original:

If it is not something that can be done safely in an unregulated market, then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in an unregulated market.  Don’t try to create the clusterfork of the bank-run financial markets in Bitcoin.

Thus concluded a post which began, with large boldface in the original:

Who appointed the United States and its institutions to supervise Bitcoin?

Many or even most governments likely feel that they do not need an invitation, so there is that angle, too.
JayJuanGee
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


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October 06, 2020, 09:59:12 AM
Merited by 600watt (1)

@JJG

I don’t think Bitmex-gate is going to affect us too much. I’m still thinking that we moon in 2021, there is perhaps a chance that covid could stop us going as high as we would have but yeah, I still think we moon next year.

Fair enough.  I am largely with you, even if, perhaps, for slightly differing reasons.. and of course, part of my request for clarification came from some seemingly slight changes in some of your outline of our expected future with lil fiend.. minor as they may have been.

Personally, I believe that there are macro events that could shake bitcoin off of the various underlying fundamentals that differentiate bitcoin from other asset classes that are also captured in the dominant BTC price prediction models... and so far, we do not really seem to be seeing any kinds of substantive or meaningful divergences from already outlined path expectations.

[...]

Thanks, AlcoHoDL.

Thanks Jay, for your long (as always [saying this in a good way]), but thorough and merit-worthy reply, I appreciate it.

We are in agreement, and there's no need to reiterate what you already know.

Since we are posting in a public thread, sometimes as a courtesy, we (royal) do post some of topical matters in more detail than necessary for the benefit of others... so a little repetition tends to play out from time to time for those of us willing to bear such repetitions...

Of course, there are quite a few regular WO peeps who I have pretty decent confidence (faith) that do "get it" but every once in a while we witness surprises, too... mindrust.. cough, cough.. .. and also, face-melting BTC price moves or even long-ass periods of seeming irrational BTC price performances, sometimes can cause a few of us to enter locations closer to our psychological limits than we would prefer to acknowledge.
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