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Question: Is the "bear market" over?
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 27004473 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
nullius
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October 05, 2020, 01:53:31 PM

meanwhile a hilarious and very dry pastiche of shitcoin blogs

https://medium.com/@sixtenhodler/intolerant-zeal-5b5b1dd6ec0e
https://archive.vn/dScZj
Quote
Many haters will claim that Zcash is just for criminals. This is prejudice — block chains matter. What makes Zcash unique is its purity. Each cybercoin, each commitment, is unblemished. One cybercoin is perfectly interchangeable with another — they are all clean. Thanks to state-of-the-art zero-knowledge proofs, every ZEC is just as innocent as another. No other asset comes close to providing the same level of pure nobility and cleanliness. Every zatoshi is a virgin.

The metaphor is sensible, although it could be better stated.  Within the shielded pool, each note commitment/nullifier pairing has, in practical effect, no prior history.  (Unless you can break the cryptography:  The Zcash designers gave up the statistical hiding of Zerocoin for computational hiding.  But then, an attacker who could break Zcash’s cryptography could probably also break an awful lot of other cryptography, and thus violate my privacy in total.)  No taint tracing (double entendre here).  No blacklisting—no Mike Motherforker Hearn jerking off all over your coins.  No Chainalysis doing a genetic analysis of every transaction that has fucked your coins before!  Each transaction is indeed the spend of a metaphorical virgin.

Bitcoin is not perfect.  Among other things, it has serious problems with fungibility—and with privacy.  We need to be able to discuss that, without the kind of groupthink “cult mentality” that anti-Bitcoiners accuse Bitcoin of having.  I’m a believer (LOL), but I am also a freethinker.

Zcash does have the very best currently-available technology for fungibility and privacy.  (Yes, Heuristic.  When I use Monero, I avoid, and have always avoided coin merge.  I never touched Monero before it got both Confidential Transactions and mandatory ring sizes; and strictly avoiding coin merge always been my policy.  If I understand correctly, this makes me immune to the sort of statistical analysis that CipherTrace is doing, or trying to do; but total avoidance of coin merge is very difficult, and rather impractical.  On this and other points, I do things with the Monero CLI wallet that >99.9% of users will not do.)  Zcash is still the only real-world deployed coin with which, for fully-shielded transactions, I don’t even think about coin control!

Unfortunately, as I myself discovered the hard way, technology alone does not make the coin.  For privacy, the only right way to use Zcash (or Monero) is to hold it:  Cross-chain analysis trivially links transactions in which people swap Bitcoin → [X] → Bitcoin; and due to subset sum analysis and timing correlations, it is surprisingly difficult to avoid all practical potential of linkage or probabilistic linkage.  Well—speaking from experience, if you want to hold Zcash, prepare to lose significant wealth—as you hold something that’s not even very useful, in terms of “where can I spend this?”  In Zcash, that problem is even worse if you want to make fully-shielded transactions.  Monero has thus far much better market acceptance, albeit still not much at all compared to Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is also by far the most decentralized coin.  Zcash and its future are basically controlled by a small group of people.  Monero is a bit better.  Whereas Bitcoin is probably about as close to ungovernable as we can realistically expect.

So...  What can we do to improve Bitcoin’s fungibility?  Much to my dismay, we seem to be stuck with transparent on-chain transactions; and the only virgin coins are coinbase.  PayJoin and CoinSwap are helpful; but in my vehement opinion, we really need to move most transactions off-chain:  Lightning Network, among other things.  Nobody can do taint tracing on an atomic multipath transaction with onion routes, or whatever else the Lightning wizards magic up.  And there is thereby no global, immutable, transparent database of all transactions, publicly available for anonymous download.  (The thing that made me run away screaming in horror when I first saw Bitcoin.  Wherefore I am not Bitcoin-rich, but I sleep quietly without worrying about someone tracing my early transactions.)



Disclosure:  I still have a small amount of Zcash—within the Sapling shielded pool, of course!  It’s small enough that I really will not get rich if it moons—from an investment perspective, it is downright trivial; and I am anyway under no illusions about the power of one of my posts to influence the market.  Same with Monero.  (Same with fiat...)  My modest Bitcoin holding is overwhelmingly larger in current market value—Bitcoin is where I store value.  And I don’t day-trade.  I have no vested interest in pumping anything here, but I very much do have a personal self-interest in improving Bitcoin’s privacy and fungibility.
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October 05, 2020, 01:56:28 PM

^ sorry mate the poet in me must be free Roll Eyes




meanwhile a hilarious and very dry pastiche of shitcoin blogs

https://medium.com/@sixtenhodler/intolerant-zeal-5b5b1dd6ec0e
https://archive.vn/dScZj
Quote
Many haters will claim that Zcash is just for criminals. This is prejudice — block chains matter. What makes Zcash unique is its purity. Each cybercoin, each commitment, is unblemished. One cybercoin is perfectly interchangeable with another — they are all clean. Thanks to state-of-the-art zero-knowledge proofs, every ZEC is just as innocent as another. No other asset comes close to providing the same level of pure nobility and cleanliness. Every zatoshi is a virgin.

Well it's kinda poetically said :p
eXPHorizon
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October 05, 2020, 02:05:34 PM

WTF Shocked

Liverpool lost 7-2 to Villa.
United lost 6-1 to Spurs.
City lost 5-2 Leicester.

Some strange happenings indeed....

Damn Manè is important for LFC...

Meh just one off day, can happen to all of them

God damn it boys, I’ve been avoiding all sports related media so I don’t get reminded about that horror show last night.

I thought I was safe in the WO but it seems not Grin

A pump would cheer me up right now.
This is really disgusting result for Millions investors feeling very bad for them what a result of this weekend for all top ranked teams.


Hey man Karma is lovely in our world. I gonna keep lovin it more Cheesy
LFC_Bitcoin
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October 05, 2020, 02:18:00 PM

Hey man Karma is lovely in our world. I gonna keep lovin it more Cheesy

Was this aimed at me, laughing because my football team lost?

Let’s have a look at your post history......

I lost them with the Exchange crash(Mt.Gox,BTC Market).. I would like to buy Doge Coin if possible at very few Satoshis hehe. I know that it probably is a Fantasy, but still i am trying to get some of those Gaming earned Coins back  Grin

Hello.


I would like to buy Bitcoins at the price of 2013-14 to gain back the lost Coins. If Bitcoin is not possible to be bought than maybe Litecoin? Dogecoin? Please, i need your aid my friends. You are all i have left.

Haha, you’re poor!
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October 05, 2020, 02:19:23 PM
Merited by ivomm (1)

Oh look, the CFTC scares all the rats with their coins off of BitMEX, and suddenly all of the barting comes to a halt.

Gee, who woulda thunk it.
rolling
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October 05, 2020, 02:20:03 PM


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Cruise ship living sounds expensive as shit... but what do I know...

If you were to have the level of hospitality that cruises offer on land it would be expensive as well. We will have to prepare people for the reality that this isn't a vacation, this is your home where you work and pay for your own meals and entertainment. You would get bored of the cruise life after a few weeks. But if you're busy working then it's not much different from living in the dorms at school. Small rooms but most of the time you're out on campus or if you're in your room you're studying your ass off.


What is the monthly maintenance cost of owning a unit? I imagine keeping a crew employed is not cheap.

The website doesn't seem to go into the details.
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October 05, 2020, 02:28:22 PM

Cross-chain analysis trivially links transactions in which people swap Bitcoin → [X] → Bitcoin; and due to subset sum analysis and timing correlations, it is surprisingly difficult to avoid all practical potential of linkage or probabilistic linkage.

Isn't that much more difficult to do for the average, non-government, or non-ciphertrace / chainalysis group? Of course it can not be "proven" if there is indeed a link since they are cross chain.

What if there is a certain amount of time that passes by between the swaps, or if the swaps goes through different exchanges? You mention PayJoin and CoinSwap, are those different from CoinJoin and the other things Wasabi (the wallet) are trying to do, or doing?
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October 05, 2020, 02:28:34 PM

Hey man Karma is lovely in our world. I gonna keep lovin it more Cheesy

Was this aimed at me, laughing because my football team lost?

Let’s have a look at your post history......

I lost them with the Exchange crash(Mt.Gox,BTC Market).. I would like to buy Doge Coin if possible at very few Satoshis hehe. I know that it probably is a Fantasy, but still i am trying to get some of those Gaming earned Coins back  Grin

Hello.


I would like to buy Bitcoins at the price of 2013-14 to gain back the lost Coins. If Bitcoin is not possible to be bought than maybe Litecoin? Dogecoin? Please, i need your aid my friends. You are all i have left.

Haha, you’re poor!


You wanna be Poor too ?  Smiley
nullius
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October 05, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

Can I borrow your girlfriend on margin to short her?

Mmmm, 100x leverage.

 Pro tip: Go long  Grin

If your girlfriend has sufficient market depth, I will make her have liquidity.  For the power of my scalar private key is a discrete log.  I do point multiplication with her elliptic curves.



Do I retain custody of the magic beans?

Only if I - physically - do the escrow. Grin

And custody of the girlfriend?  If she’s of a cryptokinky bent, get her into the blockchain per consensus rules.


If I am present in a thread, the probability of that thread turning to Ciphersex™ converges on 1.
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October 05, 2020, 02:37:05 PM

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Conservative. I'd say #bitcoin likely sees $1trillion market cap within 2years,
probably sooner. $1trillion is about BTC $50k.
https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/1313096249927774213
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October 05, 2020, 02:37:40 PM
Merited by marcus_of_augustus (3)

.....
A pump would cheer me up right now.

nullius
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October 05, 2020, 02:38:45 PM

serveria.com
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Privacy Servers. Since 2009.


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October 05, 2020, 02:49:42 PM

Please do not forget the hookers, it's always been a huge part of business.
The rest we can grow on board.


Why can't we grow hookers? Next level...  Grin
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October 05, 2020, 02:59:48 PM

I guess people really have nothing to do with their lives.
Have some fun here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5280092.0
God bless it was locked already!
One can not even put satoshi's address to his profile anymore and live happily ever after
 Grin Grin Grin

Thanks v8 for your pm  Cool
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October 05, 2020, 03:08:42 PM


What is the monthly maintenance cost of owning a unit? I imagine keeping a crew employed is not cheap.

The website doesn't seem to go into the details.

Still haven't announced it yet so we're just putting together the details. I need to work with the ship management company I hired to work out the costs per cabin. My back of the envelope calculations puts it at a couple hundred dollars monthly per cabin but we have all of October to work that out before sales begin in November.

What size are we talking about here?

Looks like a good place to self-exile. Or semi-retire (or just retire, live on your bitcoins or something.)

What kind of gym equipment does it have? The pictures on the website depict what looks like Rogue Fitness rigs and racks, aka CrossFit / Powerlifting / Strongman type equipment.

The pictures on the website are just generic pictures right now. We have to have filler material until we actually fly to the ship and take pictures ourselves.
Honestly the gym on this ship is not very huge but there is a climbing wall and a running track on the upper deck and we will certainly be focusing on health and self improvement.
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October 05, 2020, 03:24:28 PM

The pictures on the website are just generic pictures right now. We have to have filler material until we actually fly to the ship and take pictures ourselves.
Honestly the gym on this ship is not very huge but there is a climbing wall and a running track on the upper deck and we will certainly be focusing on health and self improvement.

Can't go wrong putting Rogue stuff there, Olympic or Power bars, plates, racks. Or even going with any of their competitors (Titan, Ivanko, RepFitness, ... there's a whole bunch of them.)

The ship would have some sort of high speed internet too, maybe wifi on all decks or something. (Your IP address has been traced to a boat 30 minutes off the coast of Panama.) heh.
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October 05, 2020, 03:33:11 PM

is bitcorn ded yet?

asking for a friend...


#dyor
1h

#stronghands
nullius
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October 05, 2020, 03:37:07 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), 600watt (1), Last of the V8s (1)

Cross-chain analysis trivially links transactions in which people swap Bitcoin → [X] → Bitcoin; and due to subset sum analysis and timing correlations, it is surprisingly difficult to avoid all practical potential of linkage or probabilistic linkage.

Isn't that much more difficult to do for the average, non-government, or non-ciphertrace / chainalysis group?

There is open-source software for this, available to any competent amateur (or organized crime group... or really, any highly-motivated malicious party).  I will omit a length explanation, due to haste plus a desire not to put up a “wall of text” diverting attention from the important information below.

Of course it can not be "proven" if there is indeed a link since they are cross chain.

This is the same problem as with “plausible deniability” idiot-bait:  The real world does not work this way!  In the real world, if an investigator gets a 90% probability, or even a 10% probability linking transactions, then that is what is called an “investigative lead” to be pursued and confirmed with other evidence.  Or maybe just used in other ways, if someone who wants to get you just isn’t too picky about “proof”.

By the way:  Monero peeps, that is the value proposition of CipherTrace for police agencies.  If they can get a 90% or even 10% probability linking transactions, then that gives the cops a clue to place you under targeted surveillance, get search warrants, hack your computer, beat you with a proverbial $5 wrench, weave a bullshit story for a prosecutor stack charges and threaten you with 100 years in prison to coerce you to plea-bargain even if you are completely innocent (most specifically in “the Land of the Free”, many innocent people are in prison for exactly this reason!), etc.  For someone who is acquainted with reality, it is very irritating to read all the discussions poo-pooing the probabilistic grouping of transactions and partitioning of anonymity sets.

Most Internet-armchair security “experts” have no fucking idea how detectives actually work.  Evidence does NOT need to be “proof” to be very, very useful.

You mention PayJoin and CoinSwap, are those different from CoinJoin and the other things Wasabi (the wallet) are trying to do, or doing?

Payjoin

Payjoin standard:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0078.mediawiki

Wasabi Wallet does Payjoin!  This is separate from, and additional to, their CoinJoin implementation.
https://docs.wasabiwallet.io/using-wasabi/PayJoin.html

Works with BTCPay Server on the merchant side:
https://docs.btcpayserver.org/Payjoin/

JoinMarket also does Payjoin:
https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/docs/release-notes/release-notes-0.7.0.md#user-content-payjoin-bip78-type-on-command-line-and-gui

These are new developments.  I hope to see more widespread implementation of Payjoin.  Meanwhile, Wasabi Wallet is already a user-friendly way to do Payjoins right now!


CoinSwap

Originally invented here on this forum, by (who else?) Greg Maxwell; but it has suffered some implementation difficulty.

CoinSwap:  Transaction graph disjoint trustless trading
Alice would like to pay Bob, but doesn't want the whole world (or even Bob) tracing her transactions.  Carol offers to receive Alice's coin and pay Bob with unconnected coin, but none of these parties trust each other— and Carol being able to steal coins makes Carol into a systemic risk, since the need for trust means that there can't be many Carols and Carol could be earning income on the side spying on Alices, or could get robbed, etc.

Oh, and they don't want to invoke novel cryptography or change the Bitcoin protocol.

Here I present a protocol where Alice can pay Bob by way of Carol where Carol can not rob them.

Now being implemented!  The links in this quote are recommended:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-human-rights-foundation-is-now-funding-bitcoin-privacy-development-starting-with-coinswap
Quote from: Bitcoin Magazine (2020-06-10)
The Human Rights Foundation Is Now Funding Bitcoin Privacy Development, Starting With CoinSwap
by Aaron van Wirdum
June 10, 2020

The Human Rights Foundation (HRF) was already promoting Bitcoin’s privacy features. Now, it will also fund the development of them.

HRF, the New York-based nonprofit that promotes and protects human rights globally, has launched a fund to support Bitcoin developers who make the Bitcoin network more private, decentralized and resilient. The first grant, worth close to $50,000, has been gifted to London-based Bitcoin developer Chris Belcher to realize an implementation of his CoinSwap protocol. A second grant of the same size will be announced soon.

[...]

Belcher, one of the world’s foremost experts in Bitcoin privacy, recently published a detailed outline of how the CoinSwap technique could, in fact, be done right. The developer — who previously authored the Bitcoin privacy guide and helmed development of both JoinMarket and the Electrum Personal Server — addressed a range of potential privacy leaks, and envisioned a JoinMarket-type of liquidity market to mix coins. (Additional solutions include multi-transaction swaps to counter amount correlation, transaction routing to avoid single points of trust for privacy and fidelity bonds to make denial-of-service attacks costly.)

A working CoinSwap implementation would represent another big step forward for Bitcoin privacy. Although tools like CoinJoin are out there, and do offer privacy, these do often still reveal that the tools themselves were used. CoinSwap transactions, in contrast, could be made indistinguishable from regular transactions. This not only benefits CoinSwap users themselves, but everyone else too, as blockchain analysts could no longer safely assume that regular-looking transactions were in fact regular transactions — they might just as well have been CoinSwap transactions.

That last point is important; and it applies to Payjoin, too.  If a significant number of people were to use Payjoin and CoinSwap, Chainalysis would be sad because their heuristics would become generally unreliable.  Mass-surveillance would be more difficult, and fungibility would be improved.  It would not be perfect—far from it—but this is a huge step in the right direction!
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October 05, 2020, 03:41:12 PM
Merited by d_eddie (1)

is bitcorn ded yet?

asking for a friend...


You missed it man, it died last year. Or was it 2017? Or was it 2013? Oh heck, I can't recall. Pretty sure it was in China though. Ask a no-coiner, they're more likely to remember.
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October 05, 2020, 03:47:22 PM


What is the monthly maintenance cost of owning a unit? I imagine keeping a crew employed is not cheap.

The website doesn't seem to go into the details.

Still haven't announced it yet so we're just putting together the details. I need to work with the ship management company I hired to work out the costs per cabin. My back of the envelope calculations puts it at a couple hundred dollars monthly per cabin but we have all of October to work that out before sales begin in November.

What size are we talking about here?

Looks like a good place to self-exile. Or semi-retire (or just retire, live on your bitcoins or something.)

What kind of gym equipment does it have? The pictures on the website depict what looks like Rogue Fitness rigs and racks, aka CrossFit / Powerlifting / Strongman type equipment.

The pictures on the website are just generic pictures right now. We have to have filler material until we actually fly to the ship and take pictures ourselves.
Honestly the gym on this ship is not very huge but there is a climbing wall and a running track on the upper deck and we will certainly be focusing on health and self improvement.

Yeah, I could see it being that low if the all of the restaurants, cafes, vendors, etc. are profitable or at least not losing money.

Could be a good investment if you can rent out your cabin when you're not using it.

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