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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 3 (6.3%)
$120K - 4 (8.3%)
$130K - 11 (22.9%)
$140K - 9 (18.8%)
$150K - 5 (10.4%)
$160K - 1 (2.1%)
$170K+ - 15 (31.3%)
Total Voters: 48

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26782517 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
xhomerx10
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October 04, 2020, 09:32:03 PM

^ Got yourself a vacant cruise ship (conveniently already registered in a tax haven)?

MS Satoshi
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The Crypto Cruise Ship



 Wow!  That's not even something I ever would have imagined.  Congratulations!
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October 04, 2020, 10:20:37 PM

^ Got yourself a vacant cruise ship (conveniently already registered in a tax haven)?

MS Satoshi
Oh yes, I bought a cruise ship
The Crypto Cruise Ship



Wow, are you serious? That's a bit bigger than a seastead. Is it this actual one that you are refitting to be bitcoin-oriented?



Sounds like an interesting venture, Elwar. Congrats! Any timeshare presentations we can attend to check it out for a few nights free?

 Yeah! Any vouch shares?
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October 04, 2020, 10:22:30 PM
Merited by 600watt (1)

Who appointed the United States and its institutions to supervise Bitcoin?

N.b. that I myself despise financial speculation in principle.  I think that in a perfect world, there would be no significant financial speculation at all.  If I find myself in the unusual position of defending that sort of activity, then that may be a sign that you have stepped into the zone of HANDS OFF MY BITCOIN and AMERICA IS NOT THE GODDAMN WORLD POLICE—AMERICA IS NOT THE BITCOIN POLICE.

Surely, that is part of the justification why bitcoiner should NOT be blanketedly cheering for BIG government to be taking down Bitmex and its various agents, presuming them to be criminals - even though currently, they are being charged as criminals.  There are due process rights in America, even though sometimes those due process rights are NOT fairly applied or allowed, so of course, frequently injustices occur.

“Due process rights”?  “Big government”?  There is hereby a much deeper issue:  The United States has an awful habit of arrogating to itself the power to impose global jurisdiction of its own laws, and even its mere whims.

I do not sufficiently know the facts of the case to make any particular pronouncements here; and unlike the armchair analysts already prouncing “guilt”, I will not pretend.  That said, however, it seems obvious that there may be some serious jurisdictional problems here.

A legal person (natural or corporate) not subject to the laws of the United States should not want “due process” according to American law.  For American law has no authority to try that person in the first place!

I hope that BitMEX’s lawyers, who are qualified at law and familiar with the facts, will raise front and centre every jurisdictional argument that they properly should.  It is not “a technicality”.  It is a matter of highest principle that bears on issues of sovereignty, and one of the essential differences between just laws and the unrestrained rampages of a rogue state.

To illustrate the nature of the issue, I will remark briefly on a completely unrelated case well-known to most here.

I have long been alarmed and angered by the propensity of some people to wish for the President of the United States to pardon Julian Assange.  How could the American chief executive “pardon” a man over whom the United States properly has no authority in the first instance?

(Of course, as a practical matter and for the sake of decency, I do wish that the American President would improperly pardon a man whose liberty should be posthaste restored, although his remaining health never can be.  That does not change the principle of the matter.  It also does not change the political reality that such a pardon is a pipe dream.)

To ask pardon admits the authority to punish, and guilt to be punished.  At that point, you have accepted the premise that the United States has a right to arrest, try, and convict Assange.

Now, turning back to BitMEX, you did mention jurisdiction:

I am NOT proclaiming that the various departments of the US justice system (who are purportedly representing the interest of the US people) are without a variety of justifications, but surely they need to have jurisdiction over the matters that they are alleging and charging, and due process of law should be allowed, including in criminal cases there are presumptions of innocent until being proved guilty.  Therefore evidence needs to be shown in a court of law, and criminal cases surely have intent elements that must be proven in a court of law, too.

Whereas if jurisdiction is lacking, then why should a defendant suffer trial before a court lacking proper authority, for alleged violation of laws that do not bind the defendant?  Why is the presumption of innocence even an issue?  Why should proofs be sought?

If a tinpot dictator on the other side of the world were to pass, within his jurisdiction, a decree that I, personally, am completely banned from Bitcoin, and if I were to violate his “law”, then should I seek “due process” in his court?  Or should I laugh?

On these types of issues, the only difference between that hypothetical tinpot dictator and the United States is guns, more guns, bombs, more bombs, tanks, aircraft carriers, ballistic missiles, and nuclear warheads, plus the economic and political muscle to seduce or coerce other countries’ corrupt governments without even bothering to shoot up and incinerate a bunch of civilians.

I am more inclined to presume that injustices are taking place on the side of the accused, when I see members posting about the guilt of these various players way before evidence has even been adequately described (and sure in the court of public opinion, we might even be relying upon more flimsy evidence regarding how we might feel about the situation).

^^^ THIS.

I am alarmed and, frankly, a little bit shocked at the general tenor of some of the talk here.

Just how did this U.S. government action suddenly, within a matter of days, so blacken the name of an exchange that, to my knowledge, has had a sterling reputation?  There are exchanges with credible scam accusations, theft under the rubric of “shotgun KYC”, rampant shitcoin pump-and-dump pushing, and all manner of other sleazy shenanigans.  I have never heard any such thing about BitMEX—still haven’t.  And now, some people are suddenly talking about them as criminals just because a U.S. prosecutor said so!

There’s an old saying—I don’t know where I first heard it—that in the United States, a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

All I see thus far is news that, at first impression, looks very much like regulatory and prosecutorial overreach from a country that collectively acts as if it were the emperor of the world.

Note:  I have no connection to BitMEX, and no financial interest in the foregoing statement.  My experience with centralized exchanges is pretty much nil; and I don’t know anybody at BitMEX.



[Assange]

Thanks for indirectly reminding me that I had the foregoing almost completed in my offline drafts box.  (Most of what I write is never posted, and much of it is never completed.)

Jacob Applebaum

Probably quite old news that I somehow missed, but...  He’s back in action?  Cool.  Although I disagree with many of his viewpoints (like Assange’s), he (like Assange) was always one of those principled types who would not stop at those invisible lines that you are never supposed to cross.*  I think that that’s why he (like Assange) was targeted in some scandalous way.

(* Just for perhaps the least instance of that, Appelbaum considered Cloudflare to be an Internet-wide security bug, and accordingly opened a Tor issue that I tried to keep open back in 2017—around the time that my first Newbie-rank post here thanked theymos for telling the truth about Cloudflare.  2020 update:  Nothing has changed; Cloudflare is still a tool of corporate censorship and mass surveillance, as Appelbaum said.  They are untouchable.  In tech circles, the talk about them is almost all praise.  And that is relatively nothing compared to the dirt that Appelbaum was dragging out about the NSA and other intelligence agencies!)

I hope that he is still the same will-not-shut-up deadly-principled, stubborn loose cannon as he was before.  The world needs a few more of those.


inb4 anyone accuses me of hypocrisy
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October 04, 2020, 10:25:20 PM
Merited by nutildah (1)

Elwar, mightily impressive. I really am impressed, most of us here are pretty well off, even rich from bitcoin but this is next level, wow.


May I suggest a name for your beautiful vessel?


THE JOLLY HODL



Grin
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October 04, 2020, 10:29:29 PM

Elwar, mightily impressive. I really am impressed, most of us here are pretty well off, even rich from bitcoin but this is next level, wow.


May I suggest a name for your beautiful vessel?


THE JOLLY HODL

Surely, the encrypted hodl of the ship has cargo capacity for a fortune of treasure.

Grin
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October 04, 2020, 11:11:55 PM
Last edit: October 04, 2020, 11:59:50 PM by eXPHorizon

^ Got yourself a vacant cruise ship (conveniently already registered in a tax haven)?

MS Satoshi
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Man this is a dream of mine, but i would like a wind and crew powered ( naked ladys ) Brig  Grin


Anyway, AWESOME if its real Smiley
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October 04, 2020, 11:20:24 PM

......

Wow, are you serious? That's a bit bigger than a seastead. Is it this actual one that you are refitting to be bitcoin-oriented?



Sounds like an interesting venture, Elwar. Congrats! Any timeshare presentations we can attend to check it out for a few nights free?

If it includes a nightly Elvis impersonator performance and free whiskey sours...I maybe interested....
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October 04, 2020, 11:36:01 PM
Last edit: October 04, 2020, 11:47:22 PM by criptix

daily looks actually good (up to 11k), but the weekly looks kinda like a bulltrap though (down to 10,2)  Lips sealed

/edit

trump will win if he doesnt get killed or knocked out by corona.
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October 05, 2020, 12:00:39 AM
Merited by criptix (1)

Hola Bitcoinland.
Ten six seventy five bucks
(Bitcoinaverage).

I see a new poll:
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb...
Or is that Dumb and Dumber?

It makes you ponder:
Isn't democracy fun
When you have no choice?
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October 05, 2020, 12:30:55 AM
Merited by El duderino_ (1), AlcoHoDL (1)

[edited out]

Karartma1, I don't think you need to abandon ship. Let's wait and see how this plays out. It's all good to have total freedom to do whatever we want, but do you remember how Elwar's seastead ended up? We've got to tread carefully, or my statement "we'll end up filthy rich, but unable to enjoy our riches" may come true.

For sure, if we are feeling overexposed to bitcoin, maybe we cut back on our allocation a bit.

But, even with various negative news like this, it remains difficult to figure out where to better put your money, and even if there might be some justifications, based on recent news, how to better allocate.

Of course, each person has to decide for themselves the extent to which they might be over-allocated in bitcoin, and also if s/he might become a target of governmental actions and/or overreach based on his/her own situation - whether that is being accused of  some conduct that s/he did not consider to be against the law.. but sometimes safety measures may well need to be taken in regards to where to hold stash and how much of the private keys are kept off line.  I personally find it can be quite difficult to attempt to sell BTC directly, especially if we start to get to very large numbers, in the future, so in that regard, it is likely better to have some arrangements with traditional institutions to be able to have avenues to liquidate portions of your BTC stash from time to time and also reporting on taxes, consulting with attorneys and accountants and things like that could be helpful too.  

If any of us are pulling out anything approaching fuck you status levels, whether that is a million or more or even in the territory of $6million or more, then we may well need to have some of those liquidation relationships because it could be much more difficult to operate peer to peer with those kinds of quantities, and then might we be interacting in circles that might end up causing questions to our own actions, too - even if we personally believe that we are trying to stay above board with every one of our actions.

I seriously worry about being able to "cash out" when "fuck you" rich. I fear that, by that time, all the cameras, guns, machetes, rusty pipes and what have you, will be pointing at us HoDLers, even going so far as to label us criminals, DPR v.2 (or is it v.3?), or some other "guilty-until-proven-innocent" accusation. It all depends on how "accepted" Bitcoin will be at that point.

The "at that point" remains on a spectrum because there are a certain number of us who have already been cashing out here and there... so passage of time has incrementalisms as well as an all of a sudden components.

If some of us may have some worries about certain changes in liquidation avenues, maybe it does not hurt to be getting in the practice of cashing out here and there along the way, even if smaller amounts.

Practice cashing out and buying back again.  $100 or $1,000 or some practical amount.

We should have some practice with our liquidation avenues, anyhow.

Sure, if we feel that we are mostly in BTC accumulation phase, then we might not be ready to go straight into a liquidation phase, but personally, I believe that bitcoin accumulation becomes a kind of "own it" way of life, so we have to figure out various ways to be comfortable in our Bitcoin skins, and therefore, it seems way more practical to go from accumulation phase to maintenance phase to liquidation phase - and for me, it seems that these phases are on a spectrum rather than being absolute categories.

I had always thought that at least a couple of liquidation avenues should be contemplated to be prepared for just in case some of those avenues might dry up, and sure of course, I am just a regular joe blow, so I am not really in any kind of position to give reassurances that liquidation avenues that you pick might not later end up drying up.  I have already personally had some of my liquidation avenues dry up over the years, so I can even relate to increased levels of worries regarding my remaining liquidation avenues as they currently stand and how they might change (or get reduced) in the future.

So sure, one of the risks, calculations and costs does remain liquidation avenues, and surely the actions against Bitmex likely causes greater liquidation avenues uncertainties rather than inspiring confidence as some other bitcoiners seem to be arguing.


And, as you know, timescales in Bitcoin time are very short, meaning that we'll know quite soon.

Actually, that plays on another point that I was going to make regarding members being at various points on the spectrum.  Sure there are some members who are full out ready willing and able to engage in liquidations at any time, some members
who are on the cusp of being able to liquidate, and other members who would feel much more comfortable with another BTC price exponential phase.

Those who are NOT quite ready but would be more ready upon another 3x, 5x or 8x might be more anxious...

Some people need 10x or more, and sure there are others who need much more than 20x or even 40x to 100x based on the size of their current BTC holdings and/or what amount of BTC that they might be able to accumulate in the shorter term.


It's all good to imagine an ideal world where TPTB have accepted and even endorsed Bitcoin, but I don't think this will be an easy battle. We may win, but there will be blood.

We should not be preparing for an ideal world.

We should be preparing for a variety of possible scenarios and a shifting framework - and maybe even some unexpected happenings along the way.

In other words, even though we are NOT specifically focusing on the best case scenarios or the worst case scenarios, we are prepared for those kinds of extreme and less probable scenarios along with the more probable scenarios that are a mixture of the two.

My thinking is already that bitcoin is way the fuck better along than I had expected it to be when I got in, so the fact that I am likely going to continue to have to juggle a variety of known inconveniences as well as unknown inconveniences does not come as a surprise to me, even though the specifics of the various inconveniences are surely still to be figured out at whatever particular time I am cashing out parts of my BTC or if I were to cash out larger amounts.

Remember that I personally remain with Jimbo in terms of anticipating incrementalism cashing out behaviors from myself rather than expecting that there is going to be some point(s) that I am going to be cashing out BIG ass amounts causing my lil selfie feelings of desperation and/or drawing unwarranted attention to my lil selfie and/or my hypothetical levels of richie-ness.


Of course this "cashing out" may not even be necessary, if things play out in Bitcoin's favour, and BTC (or satoshi, or whatever fraction of a satoshi results from a 2nd layer solution, should 1 BTC > $1M) ends up being usable in buying everyday goods and services.

Sure, the BTC price could go there, and I suppose it would not necessarily be a bad problem to have... but it seems to be on the lower level of probability in the immediate future.

Of course, if BTC prices goes shooting up to $300k in the next 6 months to 1 year, then million dollar bitcoin become more probable upon reaching those kinds of higher prices.  Currently, our high price has merely been $20k.. so it seems to be a bit absurd to be placing too high of probabilities on $1million bitcoins.

Don't get me wrong, I do have projections of my BTC holdings and my cash holdings that go out to a million, but I do not place very high odds on such outcomes in this particular cycle... even though I am prepared for such.

By the way in 2015/2016 (when BTC prices were below $700), my UPpity preparations largely went until about $3k to $5k, and as the BTC price went up, including when we got into the $1ks and $2ks, I had to adjust my UPpity preparations and to assign greater odds to BTC price possibilities that went beyond $5k.. .. so there are likely ways that preparations can be adjusted along the way and to be able to assign higher probabilities to higher numbers once BTC prices cross some of those intermediate price thresholds (on the way up).


This would be an ideal situation, in which BTC's intrinsic value stays in the BTC realm and we directly use it to survive (food, shelter, Lambos, hookers, blow, the usual necessities).

Again, I personally don't believe we should be preparing for the ideal, even though we should be prepared in case the ideal happens... if that makes any senses.


But, somehow, I don't think it will be that easy. Not when the establishment sees their power taken away. They won't surrender without a fight.

Well, yes... more likely that there are going to be some obstacles along the way.. even if we cannot be sure exactly what those obstacles are going to be, we should attempt to prepare for a variety of potential obstacles along the way.


My advice is to be prepared for any possible outcome.

Yes.  That is one way of putting it.  I think that another way of putting it is that we put more preparations into more likely scenarios, and adapt along the way as scenarios become more likely, and of course, that is nearly the same thing as preparing for any scenario, while attempting to focus on the more likely scenarios before focusing on the less likely scenarios.


Personally, I'm more exposed to BTC than I am to more traditional investments, but I can surely survive (and ever enjoy the occasional little pleasures—but nowhere near "fuck you" rich status) without touching my BTC. I just follow the "invest what you can afford to lose" motto, while at the same time supporting and firmly believing that Bitcoin will succeed.

If you believe that you do not need to tweak anything, then that is on you.

It is good to reflect every once in a while to consider whether any tweakening might be helpful, either psychologically or financially....

and of course, if you have been largely or ONLY "investing what you can afford to lose" then that surely should be helpful in terms of NOT causing you to take rash actions... hopefully...

Sometimes, one of the problemas with bitcoin has been that when the price goes shooting with a large amount of exuberance, we cannot help but to become emotional and possibly unexpectedly transform into irrationality.  It happens on the way up, as well as on the way down.

But if you have been attempting to really be honest with ur lil selfie in regards to how comfortable you are at various price points in case the BTC price kept going up or it reversed, and you are really contemplating that you would be neutral either way, then you may have structured what you are going to do at those various price points as best as you can and causing yourself less likelihood to actually panic when (or if) such scenario happens.


In short, as Bitcoin's value is rising, my feelings are bittersweet. Sweeter than bitter, of course, but there's always that aftertaste you get when chewing a dirty piece of paper...

That is fair enough.  I am not going to say that ambiguous feelings might happen, even when you feel that you have prepared  yourself to beat hell.  Guys (and maybe even gal) are second-guessing the hell out of themselves on an ongoing basis, but when the BTC price reverses at $48k in the next year and a half, and crashes back down to $10k or even less, you have to be comfortable financially and psychologically, even if you had chosen NOT to sell any satoshis up until that point..... or whatever other variant of scenario that you might believe to NOT be very probable, but ends up playing out.

Those various price points in regard what to do, exactly, are completely on you and your comfort rather than what other balances (or lack thereof) that other guys and gal may have chosen along that path... that ends up playing out unexpectedly from your point of view.



Ok.  I watched that clip.

How come when they left, they did not take the briefcase with them?

Am I missing something?  By the way, I had never seen the whole movie, so surely I must be missing something about the meaning of that briefcase.

Also, why was the one cowering black kid spared?  Travolta's character goes up to him in the end of the clip, and he asked why they were not told about the guy with the BIG gun who was hiding in the bathroom, and the kid does not answer - yet he was spared.

The briefcase is an enigmatic element of the movie, that is open to interpretation. I won't give you mine, since you haven't watched it yet. But you should.

I think that it was pretty cool that when Travolta's character opens it up, and it seems to glow on his face, and Jackson has to ask Travolta a couple of times before Travolta answers.  hahahaha.


I'm a big fan of Quentin Tarantino, so my opinion is surely biased, but I do consider it one of the greatest movies of all time. The first time I watched it was with my (then) girlfriend, back in 1994. She hated it, and we even had a somewhat heated discussion about it. Could it be more appealing to guys than girls?

Since I did not see it, I would not know, but surely the fairer sex does seem to have differing sensibilities from the not so fair sex.


As for the kid being spared, my guess is that it's Samuel Jackson's way of thanking God for His "divine intervention" which saved their lives.

Fair enough.. It is an interesting moment, too.

BTW, the scene whose YouTube clip I linked to, is not a continuous scene. In the actual movie, it's split and its parts are shown at different times. The YouTube poster has joined them together in one continuous clip.

Another thing that will probably be irrelevant to most, is that Tarantino is a hardcore film fan, and insists on shooting his films on real film (no digital cameras involved). A true cinema lover, in its original media, with all its quirks that give true movies that special appeal.

Edit: Corrected typo.

Yes... bonus behind the scenes information.. Thanks, AlcoHoDL.
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October 05, 2020, 12:32:06 AM
Last edit: October 05, 2020, 12:43:07 AM by nullius

It makes you ponder:
Isn't democracy fun
When you have no choice?

I am baffled at how people who understand basic economic principles can fail to grasp the most fundamental, unavoidable flaw of mass democracy.

Universal suffrage is vote inflation.  Making everybody “free” by giving everybody a vote is like making everybody “rich” by printing lots of money.

Yes, that is an original observation on my part.  Analogy credit: nullius.

Whereas the institutions of democracy—the government branches, the political parties, the mass media—all together have the rôle of the big banks in the debt-backed fractional reserve monetary system.

Democracy is a scam.

I see a new poll:
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb...

Needs illustration.  Whereas the voting votaries of democracy can belief six impossible things before breakfast!

Tweedledum and Tweedledee

This is why I say:  Don’t vote.  By voting, you grant your moral and practical political endorsements to a corrupt system:  An ochlocracy manipulated by a plutocracy.  The result is kakocracy:  Rule of the worst.
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October 05, 2020, 12:42:56 AM

Quote
Introducing Bitcoin on TRON
We’re excited to be the first to support Bitcoin on TRON (BTCTRON) today! Starting now, Poloniex customers can use our new Swap feature to exchange their Bitcoin to BTCTRON for free directly from within their Poloniex Wallet. BTCTRON is a type of wrapped Bitcoin token that exists on the TRON blockchain.

But...  Whatever for?
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October 05, 2020, 01:21:43 AM

Quote
Introducing Bitcoin on TRON
We’re excited to be the first to support Bitcoin on TRON (BTCTRON) today! Starting now, Poloniex customers can use our new Swap feature to exchange their Bitcoin to BTCTRON for free directly from within their Poloniex Wallet. BTCTRON is a type of wrapped Bitcoin token that exists on the TRON blockchain.

But...  Whatever for?
To trade your real bitcoins for silly shit, you goose!

Oi. Most times trading the cow for magic beans does not work well.....
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October 05, 2020, 01:36:57 AM

Oi. Most times trading the cow for magic beans does not work well.....

Can’t... resist...

– Boyfriend doesn't have enough money, so he trades GF for 1 BTC.
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October 05, 2020, 02:43:35 AM

Oi. Most times trading the cow for magic beans does not work well.....

Can’t... resist...

– Boyfriend doesn't have enough money, so he trades GF for 1 BTC.

Clearly sometimes, it works well.  Reminds me of margin trading.
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October 05, 2020, 02:58:29 AM
Merited by fillippone (2)


Can you understand Spanish?

This is a guide for this, complete with a 3D printable model to properly stamp the words.

https://estudiobitcoin.com/fabrica-tu-billetera-fria-con-arandelas/



Their stamping jig is way better than mine.  But I also designed a simple one if anyone wants the .stl just pm me.  It's for 1" washers.

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October 05, 2020, 02:59:34 AM

Oi. Most times trading the cow for magic beans does not work well.....

Can’t... resist...

– Boyfriend doesn't have enough money, so he trades GF for 1 BTC.

Clearly sometimes, it works well.  Reminds me of margin trading.

Can I borrow your girlfriend on margin to short her?

Mmmm, 100x leverage.
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October 05, 2020, 03:25:25 AM

Oi. Most times trading the cow for magic beans does not work well.....

Can’t... resist...

– Boyfriend doesn't have enough money, so he trades GF for 1 BTC.

Clearly sometimes, it works well.  Reminds me of margin trading.

Can I borrow your girlfriend on margin to short her?

Mmmm, 100x leverage.

Do I retain custody of the magic beans?
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October 05, 2020, 03:26:03 AM
Merited by 600watt (1)


Either you are close to reaching "fuck you" status, or you have already reached it.

Either of those scenarios would be good newses.


Alternatively, you wrongly believe that you have reached "fuck you" status in regards to you are in a kind of denial state about possible "master(s)" that you are failing/refusing to recognize or grant proper credit(s).  That would suck.  Cry

Curious question: If one were to finally achieve "fuck you" status level, what would be the motivation to continue posting around here?

Asking for a friend.

So you believe the only reason to be here is to achieve a goal and then leave?

I feel sorry for anyone in that catagory.


I was joking of course, because otherwise I would have been out of here long ago.  Wink

But clearly that has been the only goal of so many judging from how many posters have dropped off over the years. Sad really.

With the passage of time, it seem to me that we have more regulars in this thread - members who provide decent ongoing contributions, and fewer trolls, too.


(...)

I seriously worry about being able to "cash out" when "fuck you" rich. I fear that, by that time, all the cameras, guns, machetes, rusty pipes and what have you, will be pointing at us HoDLers, even going so far as to label us criminals, DPR v.2 (or is it v.3?), or some other "guilty-until-proven-innocent" accusation. It all depends on how "accepted" Bitcoin will be at that point. And, as you know, timescales in Bitcoin time are very short, meaning that we'll know quite soon. It's all good to imagine an ideal world where TPTB have accepted and even endorsed Bitcoin, but I don't think this will be an easy battle. We may win, but there will be blood.

Of course this "cashing out" may not even be necessary, if things play out in Bitcoin's favour, and BTC (or satoshi, or whatever fraction of a satoshi results from a 2nd layer solution, should 1 BTC > $1M) ends up being usable in buying everyday goods and services. This would be an ideal situation, in which BTC's intrinsic value stays in the BTC realm and we directly use it to survive (food, shelter, Lambos, hookers, blow, the usual necessities). But, somehow, I don't think it will be that easy. Not when the establishment sees their power taken away. They won't surrender without a fight.

My advice is to be prepared for any possible outcome. Personally, I'm more exposed to BTC than I am to more traditional investments, but I can surely survive (and ever enjoy the occasional little pleasures—but nowhere near "fuck you" rich status) without touching my BTC. I just follow the "invest what you can afford to lose" motto, while at the same time supporting and firmly believing that Bitcoin will succeed.

In short, as Bitcoin's value is rising, my feelings are bittersweet. Sweeter than bitter, of course, but there's always that aftertaste you get when chewing a dirty piece of paper...

(...)



Alcohodl, it is ok to get fkn rich due to years of hardened bitcoin hodl. you don't need to be scared. you earned it and folks will admire you for it. I doubt that bitcoiners will have to fear getting robbed more than the casual millionaire next door.

you deserve it because you went down the rabbit whole and put money in some magic internet money shit when everyone laughed about it. you helped this revolution get ignited, you carried the torch in a critical time of its existence. when it was vulnerable.

the bitcoin KI will not forget you and will reward you royally.

it will be easy. the difficult times were the gut wrenching multiyear bears. the next difficult times are now. but the future is bright, bro.

and.. how do you sleep with less than 90% bitcoin exposure?  Cheesy

You see.

It's confirmed that this whole thing is going to be o.k.

Sure, it may not quite be as rosey as 600watt is seeming to make it out to be, including possibilities that some liquidation avenues might dry up from time to time or the terms of the offering of liquidation services may change from time to time and vary based on location.

At the same time, while some liquidation avenues close, other liquidation avenues are likely going to open up too.

How the fuck do we have Bitmex getting prosecuted the fuck out of (at least the filing of criminal charges and putting one of the founders into custody as a kind of hostage situation) - while at the same time, have places like Wyoming authorizing Kraken to become its first bitcoin bank, and people (companies) like Michael Saylor investing around 85% of his company's cash reserves into directly owning bitcoin and other companies like Grayscale and Square equally purchasing nearly the whole new bitcoin mining amount on a daily basis.

We should not be just focusing on the doom and gloom news or even wishing away any bad news by creating a rosey scenario, instead we just need to play out these matters while keeping the vast majority of our coins secured (by ourselves) and maintain and potentially explore and practice some of the liquidation methods on a somewhat regular basis to make sure that there are a few options that exist, for us personally, and if some of our options dry up, then we likely need to seek (and expand into) other liquidation avenues.
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October 05, 2020, 04:21:10 AM

Now, turning back to BitMEX, you did mention jurisdiction:

I am NOT proclaiming that the various departments of the US justice system (who are purportedly representing the interest of the US people) are without a variety of justifications, but surely they need to have jurisdiction over the matters that they are alleging and charging, and due process of law should be allowed, including in criminal cases there are presumptions of innocent until being proved guilty.  Therefore evidence needs to be shown in a court of law, and criminal cases surely have intent elements that must be proven in a court of law, too.

Whereas if jurisdiction is lacking, then why should a defendant suffer trial before a court lacking proper authority, for alleged violation of laws that do not bind the defendant?  


Of course in the law, there are various issues that are considered threshold issues, and of course, jurisdiction is one of those areas.

Of course, also some states (governments) could be superimposing jurisdiction, and surely those kinds of injustices and overbearingnesses do take place.  I agree with your earlier example of Julian Assange.  Assange likely has fairly top notch attorneys but somehow they are seeming to have difficulties limiting the case to jurisdiction and keeping the USA govt sufficiently at bay.

Why is the presumption of innocence even an issue?  Why should proofs be sought?

I agree with you also that jurisdiction seems to be even more foundational in terms of threshold issues than presumption of innocence.

Sometimes attorneys will argue issues that are further up the ladder because if they end up losing on some of the more foundational / threshold issues and they present NO arguments on the other matters, then they would end up losing everything merely based on losing on the threshold issue.  Some lawyers and clients are going to be more willing to stick to ONLY arguing the one issue - but many times, they do end up arguing the other issues, too, while at the same time NOT waiving their right to be totally correct on the foundational/threshold issue that allows the bringing of the case in the first place.


If a tinpot dictator on the other side of the world were to pass, within his jurisdiction, a decree that I, personally, am completely banned from Bitcoin, and if I were to violate his “law”, then should I seek “due process” in his court?  Or should I laugh?

The law can be pretty god damned crazy, sometimes, because it is NOT really uncommon for attorneys to make internally inconsistent arguments, just to make sure that their bases are all covered - but frequently also, they will make their strongest arguments first, and sometimes cut off weaker arguments in order to NOT seem to be grappling at straws ... but I would think that the vast majority of western judges are well able to accept that parties will sometimes make inconsistent arguments... but still tactically, sometimes, it may well be better to just stick to the stronger arguments and to eliminate the weaker and inconsistent arguments or the non-threshold arguments - like you seem to be suggesting.

On these types of issues, the only difference between that hypothetical tinpot dictator and the United States is guns, more guns, bombs, more bombs, tanks, aircraft carriers, ballistic missiles, and nuclear warheads, plus the economic and political muscle to seduce or coerce other countries’ corrupt governments without even bothering to shoot up and incinerate a bunch of civilians.

Of course, those kinds of hard powers do allow some countries to be BIGGER bullies than other countries would be capable of being outside of their territories.

I am more inclined to presume that injustices are taking place on the side of the accused, when I see members posting about the guilt of these various players way before evidence has even been adequately described (and sure in the court of public opinion, we might even be relying upon more flimsy evidence regarding how we might feel about the situation).

^^^ THIS.

I am alarmed and, frankly, a little bit shocked at the general tenor of some of the talk here.

Of course, many of us are going to have differing opinions here, and some member will change their minds and their positions with the passage of time.  Historically, my mind has been changed on topics (sometimes in BIG ways and sometimes merely tweakenings of my ideas and maybe better buttressing or even eliminating some of the rationales that I had previously thought) after participating in thread discussions of various matters.

Just how did this U.S. government action suddenly, within a matter of days, so blacken the name of an exchange that, to my knowledge, has had a sterling reputation?  There are exchanges with credible scam accusations, theft under the rubric of “shotgun KYC”, rampant shitcoin pump-and-dump pushing, and all manner of other sleazy shenanigans.  I have never heard any such thing about BitMEX—still haven’t.  And now, some people are suddenly talking about them as criminals just because a U.S. prosecutor said so!

You and I seem to recognize a lot of these same facts, logic and conclusions, and I would not write off too many of the WO members as if you think that they do not have a brain because several of them will likely come around or at least, consider and reconsider the facts, the logic and their conclusions (opinions) with the passage of time.  

On the other hand, it is possible that you and I (or one of us) might find out that Bitmex's behavior was more egregious than we had earlier considered, and we might adjust our opinions or maybe the strength of our opinion(s) might change with the learning of new facts and logic.


There’s an old saying—I don’t know where I first heard it—that in the United States, a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

Before you brought it up, I was familiar with that expression, too.  I am not sure how old such expression is.

I quickly googled the expression, and I found this in wikipedia:

>>>>New York State chief judge Sol Wachtler was famously quoted by Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities that "a grand jury would 'indict a ham sandwich,' if that's what you wanted."<<<<

Yes, the expression suggests that the prosecutor has a lot of power and ability to persuade juror members into doing what they want in terms of being able to get an indictment.

All I see thus far is news that, at first impression, looks very much like regulatory and prosecutorial overreach from a country that collectively acts as if it were the emperor of the world.

What else is new?  I see that, too.

Note:  I have no connection to BitMEX, and no financial interest in the foregoing statement.  My experience with centralized exchanges is pretty much nil; and I don’t know anybody at BitMEX.

I doubt that there is any need to make this kind of disclaimer because we should assume that you do not have such connections... but if you were to have such connections, there might be a need for you to disclose such information, perhaps?
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