[ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning

[ddink7]

I find it highly ironic that the same people who use Bitcoin for philosophical reasons (don't like government involvement in their lives) are happy to run to the government any time they feel they need help or protection.

Seriously? The very same people that argue for deregulation, in favor of Silk Road, against the IRS taxing crypto...are the same people who want to run to the SEC now?

[rdnkjdi]

I find it highly ironic that the same people who use Bitcoin for philosophical reasons (don't like government involvement in their lives) are happy to run to the government any time they feel they need help or protection.

Seriously? The very same people that argue for deregulation, in favor of Silk Road, against the IRS taxing crypto...are the same people who want to run to the SEC now?

Except.  It won't work.  

No one is giving a DIME to Ethereum.  They are giving bitcoins.  Bitcoins are not a currency.  So normal rules don't apply.  What most people don't realize is that if normal rules DID apply.  All investors would have to make >250K a year and legally prove it.

Do you think the government (assuming they thought this was fraudulent) would love to see a bunch of people lose their bitcoins?  To teach them a lesson about the value of real currency.  And the protection of the SEC vs the wild west of crypto?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Bitcoins are not a currency.

http://www.cutimes.com/2013/08/09/judges-ruling-bitcoin-is-real-money

[Ursium]

For those interested in discussing the fundraiser structure and give suggestions, there's a great thread on the subreddit right now: http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/1wksgq/lets_help_come_up_with_a_better_fundraising_model/


Note that the team is going to open a QA thread very soon on bitcointalk. Should help with making sense of things, as this ANN thread as been derailed more times than I can count.

[turtoro]

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.

The idiotic devs still haven't addressed this. Instead opting to dismiss it entirely. This altcoin will go through 100 iterations before it's safe to invest a penny, if ever.

nothing you say holds merit anymore after you tried to bribe the devs out of money to stop bashing the project. go away


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=428589.msg4829119#msg4829119
###
"10 BTC and I'll remove my posts even though they are factual and won't make any more. 15 and I will change my tune and promote.

eMunie have already lost hundreds of BTC and were forced to cancel their IPO when I called them out here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=411366.0

I was going to create a similar thread regarding Ethereum, unless you send the above amounts.

I'd suggest you think long and hard about this. Which would you prefer to lose, 10 BTC or 1000, your choice.

1C7MPUTTWQjinfbRcQtW6HAc4ips7wMuiJ"
###

[rdnkjdi]

Bitcoins are not a currency.

http://www.cutimes.com/2013/08/09/judges-ruling-bitcoin-is-real-money

I stand half way corrected.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/31/5364406/bitcoin-miners-investors-not-regulated-fincen-ruling

[Come-from-Beyond]

Bitcoins are not a currency.

http://www.cutimes.com/2013/08/09/judges-ruling-bitcoin-is-real-money

I stand half way corrected.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/31/5364406/bitcoin-miners-investors-not-regulated-fincen-ruling

http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

So Charlie Shrem was arrested for laundering money or ...

R u sure that Vitalik / investors won't be arrested?

[cryptoknightt]

Considering that Ethereum is getting more and more popular... I believe the investment cap of 30000 BTC should be killed.

30000 BTC is a lot of crypto anyway... if the IPO were to reach those levels... who cares if it goes even higher?

The cap should be taken away so the little guy can get in. 30,000 will be hit in 10 min!!!

[ddink7]

Bitcoins are not a currency.

http://www.cutimes.com/2013/08/09/judges-ruling-bitcoin-is-real-money

I stand half way corrected.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/31/5364406/bitcoin-miners-investors-not-regulated-fincen-ruling

http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

So Charlie Shrem was arrested for laundering money or ...

R u sure that Vitalik / investors won't be arrested?

Read the criminal complain against Shrem. It includes emails that he allegedly sent to BTCKing conspiring to launder money and to purchase drugs on Silk Road. This arrest was not an attack on bitcoin, it was an attack on money laundering/drug dealing. I am a bit troubled by the timing (in New York, the day before the NY hearings)...

[TinEye]

Can anybody give a summary what happened to the presale?

[Alphi]

http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

So Charlie Shrem was arrested for laundering money or ...

R u sure that Vitalik / investors won't be arrested?

Mr Shrek became unstuck because he and his company were dealing with FIAT money.
Shrek even admitted in emails that he knew that the guy he was dealing with was exchanging drug money into and out of bitcoin.
he even overruled his partner who was concerned about money laundering and went out of his way to keep the illicit business..
its all in the indictment.

the Ethereum team are NOT involved in any exchange of Fiat currency they are simply building a new technology which may or may not result in a new market for exchange.

there is no way that this could be construed as money laundering unless the intent was clearly to exchange the proceeds of crime from one form of money to another less traceable form.

so legally (as long as their was no criminal intent) the Ethereum guys are in the clear but as we have already seen, that may not stop the banksters and other powers that be from attacking them.

people who are willing to publicly put their name and face to Crypto inventions are taking a very big risk indeed, but in this day and age of a multiplicity of petty scams it is a necessary burden to give the project legitimacy and credibility.

What happened to Mr Shrek should be a warning to everyone... do not assume the authorities aren't watching.. and do not put your greed for money above your legal and moral duty to obey they law.

Mr Shrek, Mr Shavers and Mr Ulbricht were too greedy.. they will pay for their greed.

no doubt others will soon follow...

[ThePatient]

I find it highly ironic that the same people who use Bitcoin for philosophical reasons (don't like government involvement in their lives) are happy to run to the government any time they feel they need help or protection.

Seriously? The very same people that argue for deregulation, in favor of Silk Road, against the IRS taxing crypto...are the same people who want to run to the SEC now?

...and you just so happen to know the exact reason why the people in this thread that are saying the SEC will get involved use bitcoins...

[ThePatient]

Can anybody give a summary what happened to the presale?

I'll sum it up for you

Great potential in this product, but a god-awful IPO was scheduled to begin on the 1st. Seemed awfully greedy on the founders part with the investors taking all the risk. Regardless of if the project failed or not, the founders would still make good money.

However, they have since delayed the IPO (and are hopefully restructuring it, because if they come up with something respectable this thing could really have a future) and so on the 1st there is a tesnet release instead.

+1

The presale investors have to take all the risk of project failure, while the founders take none. Also, the presale investors will get their shares diluted every year by the mining supply coming in from Botnets and cloud mining.

They either weren't ready for logistical reasons and so decided to delay the IPO....or realized that their IPO would come back to haunt them and so are now restructuring it.

[LiquidNitrogen]

So... they are not doing fundraising today, but they are releasing a testnet version?

[ThePatient]

Correct. Tmrw is only the testnet release. As for the fundraising, I'm sure they'll update with info soon.

[td services]

do not assume the authorities aren't watching.. and do not put your greed for money above your legal and moral duty to obey they law.

So... what will "your legal and moral duty" be when they tell you that cryptocurrencies are against the law?

+1

The word "greed" is about as objectively defined as the word "fair", and both are used in attempts to manipulate people by inducing feelings of shame and guilt.

[Alphi]

do not assume the authorities aren't watching.. and do not put your greed for money above your legal and moral duty to obey they law.

So... what will "your legal and moral duty" be when they tell you that cryptocurrencies are against the law?

obey the law or leave the country.. there are plenty of countries in this world, some with very nice beaches....
so far no jurisdiction in the world has banned the use of crypto currencies so that question is purely hypothetical...
what happens to you if you run a ponzi scheme, run a drug trading website or launder money?.. those are not hypothetical questions..


I think you may have misunderstood my comments.. I did not mean obey EVERY law... just the ones that carry serious jail time as punishment.
if the NSA and Edward Snowden have taught us anything it is... "They know what you did last summer"... and its only a matter of time before they act on it.

[Alphi]

do not assume the authorities aren't watching.. and do not put your greed for money above your legal and moral duty to obey they law.

So... what will "your legal and moral duty" be when they tell you that cryptocurrencies are against the law?

+1

The word "greed" is about as objectively defined as the word "fair", and both are used in attempts to manipulate people by inducing feelings of shame and guilt.

no they are attempts to make you think about your actions before they come back to bite you HARD.
morality is as much about self preservation as it is about collective good.

I do not steal from my neighbors because I know that when they find out they will call the police or come over to my house and smash my windows (or worse), shame and guilt play a very small part in my decision not to do it.

Mr Shrek on the other hand apparently had no understanding of conscience or the implications of his actions.

[rdnkjdi]

Bitcoins are not a currency.

http://www.cutimes.com/2013/08/09/judges-ruling-bitcoin-is-real-money

I stand half way corrected.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/31/5364406/bitcoin-miners-investors-not-regulated-fincen-ruling

http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

So Charlie Shrem was arrested for laundering money or ...

R u sure that Vitalik / investors won't be arrested?

Haha - yes.  But anybody is allowed to have any stupid opinion on the internet.  Including me.

Crypto is being treated as something different than strictly "not currency" AND different than strictly "currency"

You don't have to pay capital gains unless you pull it out.  Above article I posted.  Etc, etc.  So if/when the SEC will step in is anyone's guess.  I have a very difficult time seeing them stepping in to protect consumers who have intentionally stepped outside of traditional money markets in this situation.

I could be wrong.

[grizmoblust]

Bitcoins are not a currency.

It doesn't matter what YOU think.  Even if bitcoin isn't official currency that approved by gov, PEOPLE choose to use it because they find it more convenient to use than credit cards. That's the power of markets. That's the power of competing currencies.

Who gives a shit what gov says, they don't have power over you or me. They are illusion, to claim you as a part of their slavery.

Varys: Power is a curious thing, my lord. Are you fond of riddles?
Tyrion Lannister: Why, am I about to hear one?
Varys: Three great men sit in a room; a king, a priest and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives, who dies?
Tyrion Lannister: Depends on the sellsword.
Varys: Does it? He has neither crown, nor gold, nor the favour of the gods.
Tyrion Lannister: He has a sword, the power of life and death.
Varys: But if it's swordsmen who rule, why do we pretend kings hold all the power? When Ned Stark lost his head, who was truly responsible? Joffrey? The executioner? Or something else?
Tyrion Lannister: I've decided I don't like riddles.
Varys: Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow.