Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia.

[RoadTrain]

another kept repeating his "expert" line that Russia will soon be in recession but the latest we know, Rusia grew by .8%

Just so you know, economic growth needs to account for population growth. Having economic growth at about 2% means you are not growing, but not falling either. It just means you are maintaining your economic growth along with your population growth. "Growing" by 0.8% means you are falling behind, and you have more and more people with less and less stuff per person. Also, (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-11/russian-gdp-growth-slows-to-0-8-as-demand-cools-amid-sanctions.html) "Russia’s economic growth slumped to the weakest in five quarters" that being 0.8%. Russia had "0.9 percent growth in the first three months of the year," which is also really slow and pathetic (unless a lot of Russians are killing themselves). Meanwhile US economic growth has been between 2.5% and 4%. Basically, Russia is doing really really bad, and will likely do worse as it loses customers around the world, and wastes money and resources trying to readjust itself to the sanctions.

Do you see any population growth in Russia? It's miniscule at best. So having any economic growth is good in this situation.

[deisik]

If Europe is stagnating, while Russia is growing, that would suggest that Russia has more to lose from artificial trade barriers. Stagnation implies a relative reduction in efficiency, approaching subsistence level. Whereas rapid growth implies that there exists relatively less infrastructure. Therefore, Europe's pain would be being forced to improve the efficiency of their existing factories. Russia's pain would be trying to build new factories with no money and no hardware.

The devil is in the detail.

That's why I kept it very general.

You forget to take into account the different substitution possibilities. Russia can easily substitute both the goods previously exported from Europe and the importers there it supplied their goods to at virtually the same price (which means low overhead costs), but Europe can't sell their goods somewhere else, which means lower production (with all ensuing consequences).

You're making a couple of mistakes there. Substitution would result in an increase in the price. For example, Russia starts to import a lot of goods from Brazil, which they used to get from the EU. Maybe the price was the same in the past, but the increased demand causes it to go up. Brazil's higher prices create new opportunities for the EU to export to Brazil, but we can assume that part of the BRICS negotiations may have included ways to lock out the EU, or at least to prevent Baltic-style re-exporting of EU goods to Russia.

The problem is not in improving the efficiency of Europe's existing factories, since the production capacity of them becomes redundant (actually, they should lower their efficiency)...

I think you misunderstood. Yes, reduced exports from the EU would make them less efficient. That would create pressure to find new ways to reduce costs. What I was suggesting was that the EU would have more possibilities for reducing costs because the infrastructure is already there.

If someone has misunderstood something here, it is you. The reduced exports would not make Europeans factories less efficient. I'm curious where you got that part from? They would have to search for new markets, not ways to increase there productivity. How will this new efficiency help them if they can't sell even currently produced goods?

Regarding Brazil and the prices soaring you again don't understand the whole thing. Prices increase only when all productive capacities are employed (ABC economics) which is not the case in respect to food market (and even more in regard to its sector affected by Russian sanctions). Just don't think that Putin and his economic advisers don't know what they are doing...

[blablahblah]

The lack of diversity in the Russian opinions is also highly suspect. Most Westerners whom I've met seem very aware that some Western governments, especially the US, are probably up to no good. Even if they don't want to make direct accusations without knowing the facts, Westerners often have a healthy distrust towards their democratically elected representatives. And many of them often disagree with each other. Some Westerners have different opinions from other Westerners! You may be shocked by this, but Westerners often argue among themselves, even in the same thread on the Internet. The ability for Westerners to have different opinions also results in small government majorities, minority governments, hung parliaments, and 'low' levels of support for their country's leaders. As a side-effect, this makes it easier for leaders in more authoritarian regimes to falsely claim that they (for example: Putin) are doing a better job because they are more popular.

Therefore, the united voice chanting in unison: "the Russian government is innocent! They are not involved in Ukraine's internal disputes! The rebels are real! The West is responsible for Ukraine's coup and the "Kiev junta"!" sounds very suspect.

Hahaha, I guess you will never understand the so-called Russian "soul". You don't see the whole thing behind "the united voice chanting in unison "the Russian government is innocent!". I promise you that between ourselves we don't think that our government is that "innocent" (but this is none of your business)...

Have you considered that this feeling of Russian pride is just nationalism? And Asian-style "saving face"? Or that people of other nationalities also tend to have it, but directed at their own country instead of Russia?

[blablahblah]

If Europe is stagnating, while Russia is growing, that would suggest that Russia has more to lose from artificial trade barriers. Stagnation implies a relative reduction in efficiency, approaching subsistence level. Whereas rapid growth implies that there exists relatively less infrastructure. Therefore, Europe's pain would be being forced to improve the efficiency of their existing factories. Russia's pain would be trying to build new factories with no money and no hardware.

The devil is in the detail.

That's why I kept it very general.

You forget to take into account the different substitution possibilities. Russia can easily substitute both the goods previously exported from Europe and the importers there it supplied their goods to at virtually the same price (which means low overhead costs), but Europe can't sell their goods somewhere else, which means lower production (with all ensuing consequences).

You're making a couple of mistakes there. Substitution would result in an increase in the price. For example, Russia starts to import a lot of goods from Brazil, which they used to get from the EU. Maybe the price was the same in the past, but the increased demand causes it to go up. Brazil's higher prices create new opportunities for the EU to export to Brazil, but we can assume that part of the BRICS negotiations may have included ways to lock out the EU, or at least to prevent Baltic-style re-exporting of EU goods to Russia.

The problem is not in improving the efficiency of Europe's existing factories, since the production capacity of them becomes redundant (actually, they should lower their efficiency)...

I think you misunderstood. Yes, reduced exports from the EU would make them less efficient. That would create pressure to find new ways to reduce costs. What I was suggesting was that the EU would have more possibilities for reducing costs because the infrastructure is already there.

If someone has misunderstood something here, it is you. The reduced exports would not make Europeans factories less efficient. I'm curious where you got that part from?

Because if there's less demand for their products, they would need to reduce the amount of production. Economies of scale. Basic economics.

They would have to search for new markets, not ways to increase there productivity. How will this new efficiency help them if they can't sell even currently produced goods?

Why are you assuming the goods are "currently produced" if there are not enough customers? Some products are made after the order is placed. If the number of orders per week or month has decreased, but the number of employees and the factory building has stayed the same, then the overhead goes up per-unit. Decreased efficiency. Therefore, there is pressure to make changes, such as relocating.

Regarding Brazil and the prices soaring you again don't understand the whole thing. Prices increase only when all productive capacities are employed (ABC economics)

WTF?
Here's some ABC economics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Of course, that model is simplistic, and static, but it demonstrates how opportunism affects prices.

[deisik]

The lack of diversity in the Russian opinions is also highly suspect. Most Westerners whom I've met seem very aware that some Western governments, especially the US, are probably up to no good. Even if they don't want to make direct accusations without knowing the facts, Westerners often have a healthy distrust towards their democratically elected representatives. And many of them often disagree with each other. Some Westerners have different opinions from other Westerners! You may be shocked by this, but Westerners often argue among themselves, even in the same thread on the Internet. The ability for Westerners to have different opinions also results in small government majorities, minority governments, hung parliaments, and 'low' levels of support for their country's leaders. As a side-effect, this makes it easier for leaders in more authoritarian regimes to falsely claim that they (for example: Putin) are doing a better job because they are more popular.

Therefore, the united voice chanting in unison: "the Russian government is innocent! They are not involved in Ukraine's internal disputes! The rebels are real! The West is responsible for Ukraine's coup and the "Kiev junta"!" sounds very suspect.

Hahaha, I guess you will never understand the so-called Russian "soul". You don't see the whole thing behind "the united voice chanting in unison "the Russian government is innocent!". I promise you that between ourselves we don't think that our government is that "innocent" (but this is none of your business)...

Have you considered that this feeling of Russian pride is just nationalism? And Asian-style "saving face"? Or that people of other nationalities also tend to have it, but directed at their own country instead of Russia?

I don't care if other people (nations) love to wash their dirty linen in public (that was the essence of your post about Westerners accusing their governments on forums). It ain't my business, though I don't think this makes them much honor...

[deisik]

Regarding Brazil and the prices soaring you again don't understand the whole thing. Prices increase only when all productive capacities are employed (ABC economics)

WTF?
Here's some ABC economics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Of course, that model is simplistic, and static, but it demonstrates how opportunism affects prices.

If you, as a producer, have free productive capacities, you may even lower prices to increase demand so as to employ these production capacities at full (this will let you earn more through volume despite lower prices). Weren't you talking about this in the first half of your post (about economies of scale and decreased efficiency due to declining demand)?

The lesson to take home: prices begin increasing only after all production capacities are fully employed (otherwise potential profits are diminished)...

[Nemo1024]

I read a couple of days ago that Norwegian journalists did a documentary on the "Heroes of Ukraine", Azov and other groups, bearing swastikas and Nazi SS symbols. The documentary was subsequently shown on the German ZDF channel. It looks like Europe is making a very slow, but still noticeable turn away from the untra-nationalists in Ukraine, while still making token consolatory nods towards the American line of support of the US-installed Nazi regime in Ukraine by mumbling something about sanctions.

[blablahblah]

Regarding Brazil and the prices soaring you again don't understand the whole thing. Prices increase only when all productive capacities are employed (ABC economics)

WTF?
Here's some ABC economics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Of course, that model is simplistic, and static, but it demonstrates how opportunism affects prices.

If you, as a producer, have free productive capacities, you may even lower prices to increase demand so as to employ these production capacities at full (this will let you earn more through volume despite lower prices). Weren't you talking about this in the first half of your post (about economies of scale and decreased efficiency due to declining demand)?

That's just a normal part of seeking an equilibrium price point.

Conversely, a producer of widgets in Brazil finds that their inventory has suddenly been depleted, suggesting that some additional demand has appeared on the market (Russian buyers). They cannot suddenly increase their production capacity while offering the same price, no matter how generous they are. They increase their asking price, seeking a new equilibrium. The higher price makes it easier for new competitors to enter the market and start selling widgets, even if these new competitors start with a less efficient process. Similarly, the producer could invest in more production lines.

Apart from some economies of scale (the producer increased production, but still have only one accounting department) there is little to suggest that technological improvements are likely to occur in the short-term. It's possible that a smart business convert profits into R&D costs to reduce tax, but that's a long-term investment.

[deisik]

Regarding Brazil and the prices soaring you again don't understand the whole thing. Prices increase only when all productive capacities are employed (ABC economics)

WTF?
Here's some ABC economics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Of course, that model is simplistic, and static, but it demonstrates how opportunism affects prices.

If you, as a producer, have free productive capacities, you may even lower prices to increase demand so as to employ these production capacities at full (this will let you earn more through volume despite lower prices). Weren't you talking about this in the first half of your post (about economies of scale and decreased efficiency due to declining demand)?

That's just a normal part of seeking an equilibrium price point.

Conversely, a producer of widgets in Brazil finds that their inventory has suddenly been depleted, suggesting that some additional demand has appeared on the market (Russian buyers). They cannot suddenly increase their production capacity while offering the same price, no matter how generous they are. They increase their asking price, seeking a new equilibrium. The higher price makes it easier for new competitors to enter the market and start selling widgets, even if these new competitors start with a less efficient process. Similarly, the producer could invest in more production lines.

You yourself said previously that orders are prepaid, lol

So it all boils down to how saturated the food market is. AFAIK, that of diary products has a lot of unused production capacities (not sure about meat, though). And I have to repeat, Putin and his economic advisers are not fools, and their hands are free in choosing what food imports to ban without wreaking havoc unto themselves...

[gmat]

I read a couple of days ago that Norwegian journalists did a documentary on the "Heroes of Ukraine", Azov and other groups, bearing swastikas and Nazi SS symbols. The documentary was subsequently shown on the German ZDF channel. It looks like Europe is making a very slow, but still noticeable turn away from the untra-nationalists in Ukraine, while still making token consolatory nods towards the American line of support of the US-installed Nazi regime in Ukraine by mumbling something about sanctions.

may have turned to the idea of ​​Uncle Putin's right?
greetings to the Kremlin trolls ... nemo1024, deisik, myshownow and others, I'm sorry if I did not mention the nickname of all
as if you did not know this greeting you with Polish
do not have to reciprocate
 

[Paya]

Maybe they already moved to Russia? How do you know the city still has 500,000?

There aren't reports (that I am aware of) about massive exodus from Mariupol. Like, for example, in Donetsk, Gorlivka or Luhansk who were besieged by Ukrainian forces, cut off from electricity, water, food and medical supplies, and put under the constant artillery barrage.

And why would the pro-ukrainians have more guns than pro-separatists, especially with so many separatists in the area?

There are many anti-Maidan activists, yes, but they are poorly armed. Ukrainian army is one of the best equipped European armies and their stocks are huge. Rebels are much stronger than they were in May or June, but still they are nowhere near the Kiev's forces.

By the way, what will happen to the thousands of pro-ukrainians who live in Mariupol if the separatists take it over? Will they be banished from the city? Arrested and tortured like other ukraine supporters?

I suppose they would become 'silent minority'. Except for some unfortunate but isolated accidents, there hasn't been anything like organized campaign aimed at the large-scale indimidation or ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians loyal to Kiev in neither DNR or LNR. On the other side... well, let's just remember that -according to UN- almost 900.000 Ukrainian citizens are refugees in Russia, that's about 80-85% of all people in Ukraine who were forced to leave their homes and run for safety.

[niothor]

If Europe is stagnating, while Russia is growing, that would suggest that Russia has more to lose from artificial trade barriers. Stagnation implies a relative reduction in efficiency, approaching subsistence level. Whereas rapid growth implies that there exists relatively less infrastructure. Therefore, Europe's pain would be being forced to improve the efficiency of their existing factories. Russia's pain would be trying to build new factories with no money and no hardware.

The devil is in the detail.

That's why I kept it very general.

You forget to take into account the different substitution possibilities. Russia can easily substitute both the goods previously exported from Europe and the importers there it supplied their goods to at virtually the same price (which means low overhead costs), but Europe can't sell their goods somewhere else, which means lower production (with all ensuing consequences).

You're making a couple of mistakes there. Substitution would result in an increase in the price. For example, Russia starts to import a lot of goods from Brazil, which they used to get from the EU. Maybe the price was the same in the past, but the increased demand causes it to go up. Brazil's higher prices create new opportunities for the EU to export to Brazil, but we can assume that part of the BRICS negotiations may have included ways to lock out the EU, or at least to prevent Baltic-style re-exporting of EU goods to Russia.

The problem is not in improving the efficiency of Europe's existing factories, since the production capacity of them becomes redundant (actually, they should lower their efficiency)...

I think you misunderstood. Yes, reduced exports from the EU would make them less efficient. That would create pressure to find new ways to reduce costs. What I was suggesting was that the EU would have more possibilities for reducing costs because the infrastructure is already there.

If someone has misunderstood something here, it is you. The reduced exports would not make Europeans factories less efficient. I'm curious where you got that part from? They would have to search for new markets, not ways to increase there productivity. How will this new efficiency help them if they can't sell even currently produced goods?

Regarding Brazil and the prices soaring you again don't understand the whole thing. Prices increase only when all productive capacities are employed (ABC economics) which is not the case in respect to food market (and even more in regard to its sector affected by Russian sanctions). Just don't think that Putin and his economic advisers don't know what they are doing...

http://www.undercurrentnews.com/2014/08/19/chilean-salmon-sellers-trial-air-freight-shipments-to-russia-as-prices-rise-every-day/

From around $5.40 per kilo CIF St Petersburg for 5kg fish before the ban, prices have now climbed to $8.35/kg, said one mid-sized Russian importer, who has been buying frozen salmon and trout from Chile since long before the ban.

Two larger Russian importers contacted by Undercurrent confirmed this. “They have increased by 50 cents per day since the sanctions start. Tomorrow we’ll probably be around $9/kg,” said a large importer, speaking on Aug. 18.

A Chilean source echoed this: “Prices have been going up not every week but every day.”

[chopstick]

Mobilization ad from Motorola squad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9_iK91xbPVg

[Balthazar]

The real Nazis (you know, the German ones) also "cleaned the streets" after parading "dirty Jews" and Gypsies. What you and Balthazar and Nemo like to call "anti-fascists", are just regular fascists. Stupid criminals.

Cleaning the traces of unwanted person has nothing to do with dirt or nazis. It's just a part of ancient slavic superstitions. According to ancient slavic religions, cleaning of the traces of person makes sure that this person won't come back because the gods will prevent him from doing so.

Congratulations with confirmation of your own stupidity and myopia once again.

[needbmw]

[DarkForces]

REALITY CHECK

BTW, just to be clear, the supposed Ukrainian trolls  here are just Anglo-Zionist agents, the Maidan trash were really stupid so they were forced to hide them or everybody here would die laughing. Clue: They mostly extract their propaganda from the Anglo-Zionist propaganda (Newsweek magazine, New York Times, Bloomberg, etc.), which because of their shrill contrived reality, is really not taken seriously anymore even in the West. NO credibility, whatsoever- manipulated economic data (LBMA, LIBOR fixing, etc), manipulated news. The other clues are snippets, or the insertions, to inject a special propaganda: Tel Aviv may be a dump despite a few skyscrapers but suddenly Israel suddenly becomes the most developed nation in the ME here.Subliminal attempt to boost their private pet projects.

 The Anglo-Zionist, of course, has had a long-term plan against Russia manipulating  the Ukrainian inferiority complex and the resulting delusions of grandeur but frankly, it's as patently wishful thinking like their discredited propaganda.

I'm not even Jewish   And yes, keep telling yourself fairy tales. Why are you on this forum again? You have no posts anywhere but this threat, and are only talking about how the evil jews are taking over the world, and your all powerful Soviet Russia will save the world from them. You're basically a russian troll here only to disrupt and spread more russian propaganda. I'm actually glad you are here, because you paint the rest of the pro-russia morons on here with a broad crazy brush, greatly diminishing their side's arguments. So, thank you. But, seriously, why are you debating how totalitarian russia will free the world from western oppression on a frigin Bitcoin forum, a forum for discussing technology that is all about establishing western style capitalism on a global level, and one that will, hopefully, completely destroy russia's corrupt government (and all other corrupt governments) someday?

Well said, Rassah.

#FUCKRUSSIANNAZIS

[Paya]

When Amnesty International has to make a statement like this, one can only wonder what else they did not tell and what are the true proportions of the Kiev's criminal aggression on their own citizens:

Amnesty International is calling on the Ukrainian authorities to bring 'Aidar' and other volunteer battalions under effective lines of command and control, promptly investigate all allegations of abuses, and hold those responsible to account.

Members of the 'Aidar' territorial defence battalion, operating in the north Luhansk region, have been involved in widespread abuses, including abductions, unlawful detention, ill-treatment, theft, extortion, and possible executions. While hailed by many nationally as a committed fighting force, the 'Aidar' battalion has acquired locally a reputation for brutal reprisals, robbery, beatings and extortion.

Some of the abuses committed by members of the 'Aidar' battalion amount to war crimes, for which both the perpetrators and, possibly, the commanders would bear responsibility under national and international law.

(source: amnesty.org)

[chopstick]

REALITY CHECK

BTW, just to be clear, the supposed Ukrainian trolls  here are just Anglo-Zionist agents, the Maidan trash were really stupid so they were forced to hide them or everybody here would die laughing. Clue: They mostly extract their propaganda from the Anglo-Zionist propaganda (Newsweek magazine, New York Times, Bloomberg, etc.), which because of their shrill contrived reality, is really not taken seriously anymore even in the West. NO credibility, whatsoever- manipulated economic data (LBMA, LIBOR fixing, etc), manipulated news. The other clues are snippets, or the insertions, to inject a special propaganda: Tel Aviv may be a dump despite a few skyscrapers but suddenly Israel suddenly becomes the most developed nation in the ME here.Subliminal attempt to boost their private pet projects.

 The Anglo-Zionist, of course, has had a long-term plan against Russia manipulating  the Ukrainian inferiority complex and the resulting delusions of grandeur but frankly, it's as patently wishful thinking like their discredited propaganda.

I'm not even Jewish   And yes, keep telling yourself fairy tales. Why are you on this forum again? You have no posts anywhere but this threat, and are only talking about how the evil jews are taking over the world, and your all powerful Soviet Russia will save the world from them. You're basically a russian troll here only to disrupt and spread more russian propaganda. I'm actually glad you are here, because you paint the rest of the pro-russia morons on here with a broad crazy brush, greatly diminishing their side's arguments. So, thank you. But, seriously, why are you debating how totalitarian russia will free the world from western oppression on a frigin Bitcoin forum, a forum for discussing technology that is all about establishing western style capitalism on a global level, and one that will, hopefully, completely destroy russia's corrupt government (and all other corrupt governments) someday?

Well said, Rassah.

#FUCKRUSSIANNAZIS

lol what a bunch of horse-shit

Last time I checked, bitcoin was not a platform to spread "western-style capitalism" wtf??? lol

The last thing this fuckin' world needs is more "western-style capitalism" for real. What we are seeing happen in Ukraine right now, is a perfect example of "western-style capitalism" - Namely the Trillions of $ worth of shale gas underneath Donbass, BRICS attempting to end  the US dollar hegemony, which are the real reasons behind why this is happening. The US State department spent 5 billion dollars funding the coup in Ukraine in support of this "western-style capitalism" and they did the same thing in Libya when Gaddhafi tried  to return to the gold standard.

God forbid the IMF have any competition. God forbid that the US dollar steps down from its status as the world reserve currency.  Better start a coup in ukraine and try to destabilize Russia.

Get off your high horse Rassah.

This is a bitcoin forum where people tend to intelligently discuss the truth behind matters. Not cling to some vain sense of anti-russian BS sentiment.

The fact of the matter is, whether you want to admit it or not, Russia is one of the only countries in the entire WORLD that is willing to stand up against western imperialist aggression and their endless sabotage of the governments of other countries. For this, I greatly respect Putin. He is a man of integrity, unlike the puppets over here in the west.

[Rassah]

Just to add to your IQ: Anglo-Zionist doesn't have to be Jewish. Trolls may have too much inferiority complex running around them that they wished they were, however. They are fond of wishful thinking, anyway

There, I've stooped down to you twice already. That's more than enough. Congratulations for wasting my time

Are you sure? I'd love to hear more about your high IQ, and your vast knowledge of trolling, and about how super duper important you are. Please! Keep enlightening us? It's so... USEFUL!

[Rassah]

It looks like Europe is making a very slow, but still noticeable turn away from the untra-nationalists in Ukraine,

About time! Ukraine has turned away from them months ago, shortly after Maidan protests when they were publicly derided, and during national elections when they were humiliated at the polls. Glad the rest of Europe is catching up.