Coronavirus Outbreak

[franky1]

I worked in health insurance for a number of years and I'm sure hospitals are motivated to code claims using the covid-19 diagnosis. This makes complete sense:

"Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for – if they're Medicare – typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."

In theory, reimbursement is supposed to be proportional to the costs of care, but quite often it isn't. When a hospital can stick a diagnosis code on a claim that increases reimbursement from medicare (or whoever) by 3 fold, they will absolutely do it if they think they can get away with it. If a death certificate lists covid-19 on it then that 100% backs their claim if they should happen to get audited.

This is one of the many reasons why American health insurance is so fucked up.

but the bit your missing is fact checkers and people currently in the finance system of hospitals have been quoted as saying that hospitals dont get a 3x payment for just writing covid19 on a discharge form
its also said that its not a simple one lump sum one size fits all payment

.. to actually make a financial profit/excess they would have to add tests/procedures that were not required
..
dont get me wrong i bet that there are some idiot ER doctors that do ARDS treatments on patients that are not ARDS but are only mild symptom sufferers. but those type of idiot doctors would be dealt with later at their reviews. and suspended or taken off the critical ward that day.

but to do these tests would reveal test results and obviously if the test results didnt confirm the diagnoses. then its not going to be the diagnosis/cause of death.

again covid deaths would have a covid positive test done. as debunked in other posts 'suspected' cases are not included in the official figures. which is why they are saying that more could have died and not recorded because tests were not done . such as those in hospices that die.

this the the exact reasons why china was first saying 3k deaths that then jumped to 4k because the extra 1k were ones that they were not sure of at first.
this is why in the UK when the official count was 10k they said another 4k was not accounted for but was hospice/retirement home numbers. but the UK didnt just add those numbers into official numbers but keep them as a secondary report
america hasnt added in the 'suspected cases' .. yes PA did temporarily but then realised it scews the official fully diagnosed numbers, so retracted the extra's so that reports account for only the 100% tested numbers

yes i can see some doctors doing useless treatments on patients like adding a requirement for a bedpan and bedbath, even if the patient can walk to the bathroom themselves.

but the official publicly released numbers are actually undercutting the real extent because they are only including the patients that have been thoroughly tested and diagnosed

[nutildah]

but the bit your missing is fact checkers and people currently in the finance system of hospitals have been quoted as saying that hospitals dont get a 3x payment for just writing covid19 on a discharge form
its also said that its not a simple one lump sum one size fits all payment

Hospitals can get 3x payment if a covid-19 diagnosis changes the surgical procedure payment bundling from regular treatment to treatment "with complications." This type of reimbursement manipulation has nothing to do with extra services or equipment and everything to do with diagnosis.

Hospital payments are made according to what are called Diagnostic Related Groups (DRGs). For example, treatment of a hospital stay for lung infection is billed by line item:

- type of hospital room used
- drugs administered
- medical supplies
- procedures performed by doctors, nurses, anesthesiologists, radiologists, etc.

The claim is sent to the insurance company which then uses computer software to bundle all the charges together to assign it a DRG to determine the payout. The software determines the patient was treated for a respiratory infection, which falls into one of these 3 DRGs (I made up the reimbursement figures but the DRG codes are real):

DRG 177 RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS AND INFLAMMATIONS WITH MCC - $15,000
DRG 178 RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS AND INFLAMMATIONS WITH CC - $10,000
DRG 179 RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS AND INFLAMMATIONS WITHOUT CC/MCC - $5,000

MCC = major complications
CC = complications

The software then looks at the diagnosis code(s) being put on the claim to determine which of the 3 codes to use. If pneumonia was the primary diagnosis, the software might assign the claim DRG 179 and the hospital will be reimbursed $5,000. If covid-19 was the primary diagnosis, the software might assign the claim DRG 177 and the hospital will be reimbursed $15,000.

So a difference of $10,000 is a great incentive for a hospital to potentially forge a fictitious diagnosis on a claim. Especially if a coder / medical biller employed by the hospital receives a cut from each successfully reimbursed claim. Even without this incentive, its easy to see why this is regularly taken advantage of by some of the more greedy hospitals, as they are capitalist enterprises by nature and looking to exploit every dollar they can out of a potentially broken / under-regulated system.

This behavior was already happening well before the coronavirus. There's no reason to think it isn't happening now.

Also, there are no "fact checkers" in the financial system of hospitals. There's very little oversight by the insurance companies themselves. They simply pass on the inflated costs to their customers.

[BADecker]

More and more scientists coming together to show that Coronavirus is being lied about... with Ron Paul. In addition, global warming is a media scam.

Regarding the video, check out Prof. Rancourt's article that was mentioned in the show: http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/...


How Will History Treat The Coronavirus Lockdown? With Prof. Denis Rancourt

You won't want to miss this very special Liberty Report! Former University of Ottawa physics professor Denis Rancourt joins today's program to examine the science behind government and media claims about the coronavirus outbreak. Does a national lockdown make any sense? Why did the scientists that governments listen to seem to get the numbers all wrong? And why have other scientists who challenged the accepted wisdom been silenced and ignored? What are the numbers? Why is the media only interested in bolstering government rhetoric, no matter how incorrect it proves to be? And, very importantly, why did state and local authorities take measures that almost guaranteed that senior care facilities would see more widespread suffering and death than necessary?

How Will History Treat The Coronavirus Lockdown? With Prof. Denis Rancourt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awNrRiQCOdA

[franky1]

- type of hospital room used
- drugs administered
- medical supplies
- procedures performed by doctors, nurses, anesthesiologists, radiologists, etc.

The claim is sent to the insurance company which then uses computer software to bundle all the charges together

you debunked yourself
just writing covid on a random form does not trigger high reimbursements.
i quoted you above that shows this

the reimbursements are based on the actual procedures included during the stay being packaged up
so a simple swab test for covid will not trigger your DRG177 with MCC
because a patient who was mild would not have the same treatment severe patient
a patient with a gunshot wound dying of a gunshot wound based injuries who happen to also have a cough wouldnt trigger the same procedures as someone with ARDS

so if you think someone with just a cough would get a hospital compensated for a 24day stay in a critical care ward under comatose protocol.. you are very very much mistaken.

the most a hospital can tweak without it being flagged up is bed pan/bed baths and additional bodily fluid sampling.

but hey america is known for the scammers and greedy people so i can see why you think its actually simple. but the reality is that there are repercussions to certain extreme errors.
hospitals can actually lose alot. as can individual doctors
but yea america ia america and thats why im glad im a brit.

but if you want to start toeeing the conspiracy party line.you can always ask the relatives of patients that died and ask them why the patient went into hospital

[franky1]

read your own friggen explanation about the DRG

then try to explain to yourself how someone being discharged from hospital with only mild symptoms would cause a large reimbursements of a medical complication level involving ventilation/comatose package.

try to explain how someone with cpap is the same as a comotosed ventilation category
have a nice time trying to explain it to yourself

again someone who is asymptomatic for covid. but tests positive.. but is in hospital for a gunshot wound and dies from blood loss/crush injuries.. would not be put into the same expensive package deal as an ARDS patient who is comatosed and ventilated.

a scalpel to remove the bullet and stitches to tie up the wound is not the same category as ARDS.
and a nasel swab covid test wont change that.

[franky1]

They wouldn't. Using a ventilator prompts the claims processing system to use an entirely different set of DRGs.

congratulations. now you realise that someone discharged for a minor ailment or an ailment unrelated to covid would be on a different DRG

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.

look i know you want to push the claim that hospitals are corrupt greedy money grabbers. but the style your trying to push is going a little extreme.

like i said yea they can throw in a few swabs and blood draws to boost the balance unnessesarily.
but to claim that someone needed a ventilator and an ICU bed and being comotosed. when all they actually had was cpap.. is a far far far reach

trying to claim someone that dies on a surgical ward where the treatment was scalpels and units of blood and stiches.. to some how turn into an ARDS category of comatosed and ventilated .. again far far stretch

i am not here to troll or bate people. thats for conspiracy freaks to do.
im here to correct the misinformation.. even if that is misinformation where an added bedpan situation gets exaggurated into changing cause of death and adding loads of treatments that the patient never even had.

[franky1]

The point was this: If somebody goes in to a hospital for a respiratory infection and their claim is coded with the diagnosis for covid-19, said claim stands a good chance of being reimbursed at a rate 2x, 3x, or even higher than if they had been diagnosed with something like pneumonia.

ok lets go word for word of your summary point..

because the whole conspiracy notion that sparked off with badeckers idiotic nature is random people declared as covid..

so in the understanding that someone goes into hospital with respiratory infection.. they are swabbed and tested to see if its covid...
ok..
so if the test comes bac as positive then its put on the record as covid and a reference to the test result is attached.
at this point they dont just write covid. they actually link test results and scans to the patients records

not sure what hospitals you administered but if they were ones that didnt run tests and didnt link scans to records.. then that is just a crappy hospital that probably had many medical lawsuits over the years.
anyways. back to most general hospitals that are in the 21st century

so respiratory patient with covid.. lets continue..
because doctors have to gownup and mask up. there is extra costs involved. and it has been estimated those extra costs.
but guess what.. just for wearing a gown/mask to offer nasel canular oxygen does not warrant the DRG of WCC 3x costs..
sorry it does not

a DRG with WCC would be if nasel canular didnt work, cpap didnt work and then the patient was in such respiratory distress that the only option left would be to comatose and ventilate the patient. then it would be a WCC case
the 3x is not 3x compared to normal ARDS. its 3x compared to nasel canular

stuff like masks and gowns and swabs are pennies on the dollar. not thousands of dollars different.



also to add its not a single package price.
mechanical ventilation has always cost way way over $10k where as non mechanical ventialation is more like $6k
oh and did i also not say theat the prices vary per day. yep in my research its actualy cheaper on days 3+ becuse the first 24-48 hours is the critical time requiring more labour to try stabalising the patient, where as other other days are usually more peaceful monitoring and waiting for improvement.

so where you think its a set package price. its not. its custom price based on actual teatment received and days receiving it. and then bundled into a total.

yes someone with normal resiratory imflamation might get away with a day or 2 of treatment. wehere as covid ARDS can be a couple weeks. so yes costs are higher so yes hospitals get more.

but they dont get more from just pretending someone was in an induced coma for 2 weeks..
that kind of medical fraud would be too obvious

[Spendulus]

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.....

The chance a smart British guy could understand American health care reimbursement schemes in less than about twenty hours of pain and misery is zero. It's like passing through multiple doors, and going through each muttering "It can't possibly get any stupider than this."

Yes, it can.

[franky1]

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.....

The chance a smart British guy could understand American health care reimbursement schemes in less than about twenty hours of pain and misery is zero. It's like passing through multiple doors, and going through each muttering "It can't possibly get any stupider than this."

Yes, it can.

well its a good thing that badecker started his conspiracies months ago and because of lockdown i have alot of spare time on my hands.
i didnt just research it in the last 24 hours. i knew about the ICD-10 death certificate recommendations ages ago. death certificates are filled out with all the symptoms that affected the patient starting with the final fatel one. and it includes as much detail as possible including scans and treatments given.

then when the financial conspiracy started ages ago. i also looked into that. i did not see any strange extremely high difference between a non covid ventilation and a covid ventilation. only small amounts which can be attributed to common sense stuff like the extra precautions needed.

and it just made it more funny that silly faux media present it as a hospital gets a standard 'package' payment' of a fixed sum based on an overall death certificate scribble..
sorry but no. each treatment has its own costs and each treatment also has different grades depending on if it was easy/complex.. and also each treatment is billed per day not just a single payment whether patient is treated for one day or 2 weeks..
oh and different days have different levels of payment.

so i find it extremly hard for a hospital to try and recoup costs for comatosed ventilation for 14 days if the person only have a nasel canular for 2 days

but hey if its happening. then america is more screwed than people think

have a nice day though folks.

edit: im the guy thatwhen something looks stupid. i actually bother to research. and i dont just grab the first google search that sounds like something i want to hear. but i try to find facts and numbers. i then see if there are other sources to cross reference against to validate/invalidate what i find.
so i went back and found one of the sources of costs back from 2002 to compare to numbers of 2020
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15942342
there were others. but this one alone kinda sums it all up
(the reasons why numbers can differ from 31.5-41.5 is not just the days. but the difference of costs(2190/2690 a day))
because yea. im that anal i actually delved into those details too

[Spendulus]

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.....

The chance a smart British guy could understand American health care reimbursement schemes in less than about twenty hours of pain and misery is zero. It's like passing through multiple doors, and going through each muttering "It can't possibly get any stupider than this."

Yes, it can.

well its a good thing that badecker started his conspiracies months ago and because of lockdown i have alot of spare time on my hands.
i didnt just research it in the last 24 hours. i knew about the ICD-10 death certificate recommendations ages ago. death certificates are filled out with all the symptoms that affected the patient starting with the final fatel one. and it includes as much detail as possible including scans and treatments given.

then when the financial conspiracy started ages ago. i also looked into that. i did not see any strange extremely high difference between a non covid ventilation and a covid ventilation. only small amounts which can be attributed to common sense stuff like the extra precautions needed.

and it just made it more funny that silly faux media present it as a hospital gets a standard 'package' payment' of a fixed sum based on an overall death certificate scribble..
sorry but no. each treatment has its own costs and each treatment also has different grades depending on if it was easy/complex.. and also each treatment is billed per day not just a single payment whether patient is treated for one day or 2 weeks..
oh and different days have different levels of payment.

so i find it extremly hard for a hospital to try and recoup costs for comatosed ventilation for 14 days if the person only have a nasel canular for 2 days

but hey if its happening. then america is more screwed than people think

have a nice day though folks.

This is the part of your post that matters...

...if its happening. then america is more screwed than people think...

But also, if some guys that know this rather miserable subject tell you you can't possibly understand, you need to listen to them. It's rather like someone saying they understand p/np. No, they do not.

[tvbcof]

Looks like they killed thousands of people with 'vents' in New York City this last passover.  At $39,000 per, that's tens of millions of dollars.   Whistleblower:

  https://youtu.be/PbMsxdiMjz8?t=1350

Because of balognavirus no family members could witness the 'treatment' and help their loved ones out of the nightmare.  The nurses even routed the tubing outside the room so these poor souls would die alone with nobody in the room.  I sensed something was up when they were forcing patients to sign DNRs and other weirdness.

No wonder Cuomo 'needed 30,000 ventilators'.  No wonder 5,000,000 people hauled ass out of New York before they were locked in.  Word probably got around, and Trump himself warned that it was going to be a 'bad few weeks' in a very bizarre speech where it seemed like he was in some sort of a trance.

Pure Kabbalahistic evil!  And it's probably just getting started.

[franky1]

It's rather like someone saying they understand p/np. No, they do not.

if you could prove computer problems can be brute forced/solved in the same time that it takes to verify.. then bitcoins scripts would be screwed.
my understanding is that its way easier to verify than to solve. and thats what makes bitcoin actually so great.
takes milliseconds to verify but millions of years to bruteforce

but hey if you think its just as easy to solve than it is to verify. then you think bitcoin is screwed

[franky1]

ok. one last time

ill even take boris johnson as a prime example
his visit to the hospital was far longer than someone with general flu pneumonia would have been
its the extra days that add on majority extra COSTS thus require extra reimbursments
where as a 2 day nasel canular non covid vs a 2 day nasel canular covid positive would be only a few hundred dollars (few percent) difference due to extra precautions

thats why there is a 25-50% difference. someone there for 8-10 days or someone there for 14-15 days
its not extra money just for scribbling covid on a toe tag.

..
what your not realising is the official stats released to public are the ones of actual tests confirmed.
the ones 'suspected' are not even in that stat meaning those that die before they even got a chance to be tested means numbers can be higher (EG hospice deaths)

but if you actually want to pick a real hole at america and even UK's medical flaws.
these 'emergency' temporary excess beds/hospitals. are only really outfitted with ventilators.
many covid patients also have it where they got infected by eating contaminated food(not wash hands/food)
which then also causes organ issues. which these temporary beds cant treat.
thus for instance the UK's 'nightingale' hspitals wont be able to treat all covid patients which is why hardly any patients were referred to them because of some complications and not straight forward ARDS alone symptoms

yep. covid even in a healthy non preexisting condition can get more than just ARDS symptoms due to covid

EDIT. to mention the post below
nutildah did mention the 25-50% increase. to which i yet again had to explain the money side of things..

it seemed nutildah wants to go down a path of how hospitals are badly handling covid pandemic. so i then mentioned a different issues unrelated to the money side and actually related to patient care of how things like the temporary hospitals are not even adequate to handle the complexities of all the covid related stuff.

but hey. it is funny to try and see some people ignore real problems and instead try to push things to extremes of conspiracy narratives to agree with idiots that think covid is fake

meanwhile. ill continue to research and find source info and double check things and actually point out REAL failures

[TECSHARE]

"Former AIDS Scientist Exposes Dr. Fauci’s Medical Corruption"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgnBldI7KPY

Very important and relevant interview.

[squatz1]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

[TECSHARE]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

Like I said, 98% pork.



More related:

"Democrats And Media Are EXPLOITING The Crisis For Political Power, Media PRAISES China Censorship"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlOrYl-MJoU

[TwitchySeal]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

And then Trump and Mnuchin acted surprised and offended that rich people would dare take as much free federal money as the rules allowed.

That's going to be funny scene in a movie one day.

[Spendulus]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

Like I said, 98% pork.

.....

Likely that 98% never left DC.

[squatz1]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

And then Trump and Mnuchin acted surprised and offended that rich people would dare take as much free federal money as the rules allowed.

That's going to be funny scene in a movie one day.

Oh that part is the part that's annoying me. It's also on the members of congress who wrote this bill and passed it, as they're also complicit in this happening as well. Everyone in Congress (and Trumps office) knows that you could've set stricter limits on this program but they didn't do it on purpose. Sigh.

Hopefully people that truly do need it get this money, instead of some huge companies that really are just trying to starve out the competition (smaller businesses) of funds that they needed yesterday.

[tvbcof]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

And then Trump and Mnuchin acted surprised and offended that rich people would dare take as much free federal money as the rules allowed.

That's going to be funny scene in a movie one day.

It would go well against the scene where U.S. military troops are taught how to make their own masks out of tee-shirts while the Trump administration sends 1,000,000 N95 masks to the Israeli IDF.

Not that the IDF probably ever received all of the masks.  Likely a lot of them ended up with guys like this.