Coronavirus Outbreak

[franky1]

They wouldn't. Using a ventilator prompts the claims processing system to use an entirely different set of DRGs.

congratulations. now you realise that someone discharged for a minor ailment or an ailment unrelated to covid would be on a different DRG

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.

look i know you want to push the claim that hospitals are corrupt greedy money grabbers. but the style your trying to push is going a little extreme.

like i said yea they can throw in a few swabs and blood draws to boost the balance unnessesarily.
but to claim that someone needed a ventilator and an ICU bed and being comotosed. when all they actually had was cpap.. is a far far far reach

trying to claim someone that dies on a surgical ward where the treatment was scalpels and units of blood and stiches.. to some how turn into an ARDS category of comatosed and ventilated .. again far far stretch

i am not here to troll or bate people. thats for conspiracy freaks to do.
im here to correct the misinformation.. even if that is misinformation where an added bedpan situation gets exaggurated into changing cause of death and adding loads of treatments that the patient never even had.

[franky1]

The point was this: If somebody goes in to a hospital for a respiratory infection and their claim is coded with the diagnosis for covid-19, said claim stands a good chance of being reimbursed at a rate 2x, 3x, or even higher than if they had been diagnosed with something like pneumonia.

ok lets go word for word of your summary point..

because the whole conspiracy notion that sparked off with badeckers idiotic nature is random people declared as covid..

so in the understanding that someone goes into hospital with respiratory infection.. they are swabbed and tested to see if its covid...
ok..
so if the test comes bac as positive then its put on the record as covid and a reference to the test result is attached.
at this point they dont just write covid. they actually link test results and scans to the patients records

not sure what hospitals you administered but if they were ones that didnt run tests and didnt link scans to records.. then that is just a crappy hospital that probably had many medical lawsuits over the years.
anyways. back to most general hospitals that are in the 21st century

so respiratory patient with covid.. lets continue..
because doctors have to gownup and mask up. there is extra costs involved. and it has been estimated those extra costs.
but guess what.. just for wearing a gown/mask to offer nasel canular oxygen does not warrant the DRG of WCC 3x costs..
sorry it does not

a DRG with WCC would be if nasel canular didnt work, cpap didnt work and then the patient was in such respiratory distress that the only option left would be to comatose and ventilate the patient. then it would be a WCC case
the 3x is not 3x compared to normal ARDS. its 3x compared to nasel canular

stuff like masks and gowns and swabs are pennies on the dollar. not thousands of dollars different.



also to add its not a single package price.
mechanical ventilation has always cost way way over $10k where as non mechanical ventialation is more like $6k
oh and did i also not say theat the prices vary per day. yep in my research its actualy cheaper on days 3+ becuse the first 24-48 hours is the critical time requiring more labour to try stabalising the patient, where as other other days are usually more peaceful monitoring and waiting for improvement.

so where you think its a set package price. its not. its custom price based on actual teatment received and days receiving it. and then bundled into a total.

yes someone with normal resiratory imflamation might get away with a day or 2 of treatment. wehere as covid ARDS can be a couple weeks. so yes costs are higher so yes hospitals get more.

but they dont get more from just pretending someone was in an induced coma for 2 weeks..
that kind of medical fraud would be too obvious

[Spendulus]

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.....

The chance a smart British guy could understand American health care reimbursement schemes in less than about twenty hours of pain and misery is zero. It's like passing through multiple doors, and going through each muttering "It can't possibly get any stupider than this."

Yes, it can.

[franky1]

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.....

The chance a smart British guy could understand American health care reimbursement schemes in less than about twenty hours of pain and misery is zero. It's like passing through multiple doors, and going through each muttering "It can't possibly get any stupider than this."

Yes, it can.

well its a good thing that badecker started his conspiracies months ago and because of lockdown i have alot of spare time on my hands.
i didnt just research it in the last 24 hours. i knew about the ICD-10 death certificate recommendations ages ago. death certificates are filled out with all the symptoms that affected the patient starting with the final fatel one. and it includes as much detail as possible including scans and treatments given.

then when the financial conspiracy started ages ago. i also looked into that. i did not see any strange extremely high difference between a non covid ventilation and a covid ventilation. only small amounts which can be attributed to common sense stuff like the extra precautions needed.

and it just made it more funny that silly faux media present it as a hospital gets a standard 'package' payment' of a fixed sum based on an overall death certificate scribble..
sorry but no. each treatment has its own costs and each treatment also has different grades depending on if it was easy/complex.. and also each treatment is billed per day not just a single payment whether patient is treated for one day or 2 weeks..
oh and different days have different levels of payment.

so i find it extremly hard for a hospital to try and recoup costs for comatosed ventilation for 14 days if the person only have a nasel canular for 2 days

but hey if its happening. then america is more screwed than people think

have a nice day though folks.

edit: im the guy thatwhen something looks stupid. i actually bother to research. and i dont just grab the first google search that sounds like something i want to hear. but i try to find facts and numbers. i then see if there are other sources to cross reference against to validate/invalidate what i find.
so i went back and found one of the sources of costs back from 2002 to compare to numbers of 2020
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15942342
there were others. but this one alone kinda sums it all up
(the reasons why numbers can differ from 31.5-41.5 is not just the days. but the difference of costs(2190/2690 a day))
because yea. im that anal i actually delved into those details too

[Spendulus]

..
firstly i read about DRG before your rebuttal
i learned about all the ICD-10 and drg months ago when badecker started his crackpot conspiracies.....

The chance a smart British guy could understand American health care reimbursement schemes in less than about twenty hours of pain and misery is zero. It's like passing through multiple doors, and going through each muttering "It can't possibly get any stupider than this."

Yes, it can.

well its a good thing that badecker started his conspiracies months ago and because of lockdown i have alot of spare time on my hands.
i didnt just research it in the last 24 hours. i knew about the ICD-10 death certificate recommendations ages ago. death certificates are filled out with all the symptoms that affected the patient starting with the final fatel one. and it includes as much detail as possible including scans and treatments given.

then when the financial conspiracy started ages ago. i also looked into that. i did not see any strange extremely high difference between a non covid ventilation and a covid ventilation. only small amounts which can be attributed to common sense stuff like the extra precautions needed.

and it just made it more funny that silly faux media present it as a hospital gets a standard 'package' payment' of a fixed sum based on an overall death certificate scribble..
sorry but no. each treatment has its own costs and each treatment also has different grades depending on if it was easy/complex.. and also each treatment is billed per day not just a single payment whether patient is treated for one day or 2 weeks..
oh and different days have different levels of payment.

so i find it extremly hard for a hospital to try and recoup costs for comatosed ventilation for 14 days if the person only have a nasel canular for 2 days

but hey if its happening. then america is more screwed than people think

have a nice day though folks.

This is the part of your post that matters...

...if its happening. then america is more screwed than people think...

But also, if some guys that know this rather miserable subject tell you you can't possibly understand, you need to listen to them. It's rather like someone saying they understand p/np. No, they do not.

[tvbcof]

Looks like they killed thousands of people with 'vents' in New York City this last passover.  At $39,000 per, that's tens of millions of dollars.   Whistleblower:

  https://youtu.be/PbMsxdiMjz8?t=1350

Because of balognavirus no family members could witness the 'treatment' and help their loved ones out of the nightmare.  The nurses even routed the tubing outside the room so these poor souls would die alone with nobody in the room.  I sensed something was up when they were forcing patients to sign DNRs and other weirdness.

No wonder Cuomo 'needed 30,000 ventilators'.  No wonder 5,000,000 people hauled ass out of New York before they were locked in.  Word probably got around, and Trump himself warned that it was going to be a 'bad few weeks' in a very bizarre speech where it seemed like he was in some sort of a trance.

Pure Kabbalahistic evil!  And it's probably just getting started.

[franky1]

It's rather like someone saying they understand p/np. No, they do not.

if you could prove computer problems can be brute forced/solved in the same time that it takes to verify.. then bitcoins scripts would be screwed.
my understanding is that its way easier to verify than to solve. and thats what makes bitcoin actually so great.
takes milliseconds to verify but millions of years to bruteforce

but hey if you think its just as easy to solve than it is to verify. then you think bitcoin is screwed

[franky1]

ok. one last time

ill even take boris johnson as a prime example
his visit to the hospital was far longer than someone with general flu pneumonia would have been
its the extra days that add on majority extra COSTS thus require extra reimbursments
where as a 2 day nasel canular non covid vs a 2 day nasel canular covid positive would be only a few hundred dollars (few percent) difference due to extra precautions

thats why there is a 25-50% difference. someone there for 8-10 days or someone there for 14-15 days
its not extra money just for scribbling covid on a toe tag.

..
what your not realising is the official stats released to public are the ones of actual tests confirmed.
the ones 'suspected' are not even in that stat meaning those that die before they even got a chance to be tested means numbers can be higher (EG hospice deaths)

but if you actually want to pick a real hole at america and even UK's medical flaws.
these 'emergency' temporary excess beds/hospitals. are only really outfitted with ventilators.
many covid patients also have it where they got infected by eating contaminated food(not wash hands/food)
which then also causes organ issues. which these temporary beds cant treat.
thus for instance the UK's 'nightingale' hspitals wont be able to treat all covid patients which is why hardly any patients were referred to them because of some complications and not straight forward ARDS alone symptoms

yep. covid even in a healthy non preexisting condition can get more than just ARDS symptoms due to covid

EDIT. to mention the post below
nutildah did mention the 25-50% increase. to which i yet again had to explain the money side of things..

it seemed nutildah wants to go down a path of how hospitals are badly handling covid pandemic. so i then mentioned a different issues unrelated to the money side and actually related to patient care of how things like the temporary hospitals are not even adequate to handle the complexities of all the covid related stuff.

but hey. it is funny to try and see some people ignore real problems and instead try to push things to extremes of conspiracy narratives to agree with idiots that think covid is fake

meanwhile. ill continue to research and find source info and double check things and actually point out REAL failures

[TECSHARE]

"Former AIDS Scientist Exposes Dr. Fauci’s Medical Corruption"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgnBldI7KPY

Very important and relevant interview.

[squatz1]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

[TECSHARE]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

Like I said, 98% pork.



More related:

"Democrats And Media Are EXPLOITING The Crisis For Political Power, Media PRAISES China Censorship"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlOrYl-MJoU

[TwitchySeal]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

And then Trump and Mnuchin acted surprised and offended that rich people would dare take as much free federal money as the rules allowed.

That's going to be funny scene in a movie one day.

[Spendulus]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

Like I said, 98% pork.

.....

Likely that 98% never left DC.

[squatz1]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

And then Trump and Mnuchin acted surprised and offended that rich people would dare take as much free federal money as the rules allowed.

That's going to be funny scene in a movie one day.

Oh that part is the part that's annoying me. It's also on the members of congress who wrote this bill and passed it, as they're also complicit in this happening as well. Everyone in Congress (and Trumps office) knows that you could've set stricter limits on this program but they didn't do it on purpose. Sigh.

Hopefully people that truly do need it get this money, instead of some huge companies that really are just trying to starve out the competition (smaller businesses) of funds that they needed yesterday.

[tvbcof]

Been reading a good amount about the massive $2.2 trillion stimulus package. People are praising Congress for getting it done so quickly, as it is pretty crazy they were able to agree on something like this so swiftly. The issue is in what really matters, which is the execution of the bill itself.

The big part of the stimulus package was the Paycheck Protection Loan (PPL) which has been under fire recentley for giving too much freedom to the banks to not be equal in their processing of applications. In simple terms, banks were processing the applications of their wealthier clients first. There's also the issue of big companies receiving the PPL, when small businesses were heavily left behind.

Real shit show.

And then Trump and Mnuchin acted surprised and offended that rich people would dare take as much free federal money as the rules allowed.

That's going to be funny scene in a movie one day.

It would go well against the scene where U.S. military troops are taught how to make their own masks out of tee-shirts while the Trump administration sends 1,000,000 N95 masks to the Israeli IDF.

Not that the IDF probably ever received all of the masks.  Likely a lot of them ended up with guys like this.

[PrimeNumber7]

With regards to risk analysis, its a game of balancing the risk and reward. The convenience of motor vehicles is something we've agreed is worth taking the risk of dying in a car crash, but we wear seat belts and strive for higher safety engineering.

The cost of wearing a seat belt is something close to zero. The cost of closing the economy is far above zero and is costing lives (and livelihoods), and it may not even be effective. The lockdowns were not intended to prevent the majority of coronavirus deaths, they were intended to spread out coronavirus deaths, and to prevent deaths resulting from an overwhelmed healthcare system. The healthcare system is currently vastly underwhelmed.

You brought up an interesting point about the asymptomatic thing. On one hand, we may consider ourselves lucky that Covid doesn't have the 35% mortality rate of MERS. On the other hand, when you catch the flu, you know within a day or two and are then on your couch eating soup until you're feeling better. With Covid, you're running around feeling fine exposing other people who may or may not end up feeling fine. You could go out for a jog and then go chat with Grandma or little Timmy, and then they've croaked. The death statistics are important, but the hospitalization rate is also incredibly important. Assuming medical care is available, its not cheap. The things that put you in the high risk category for Covid aren't just rare lung diseases or being 97 years old. They're things like obesity, asthma, high blood pressure, and diabetes, things that effect more than 50% of Americans. There are essentially four outcomes with Covid, either you are asymptomatic and don't get sick at all, you get a really shitty but not life threatening two week illness, you end up in the hospital with a mountain of medical bills, or you die (and still wrack up medical bills). Three out of four of those are bad options, and option #1 isn't fantastic either for the sake of spread of contagion.

As discussed above, the lockdowns are not intended to prevent everyone from getting the coronavirus, only delay people from getting it. Most people have had health insurance, but less so today because millions have lost their jobs that typically provide health insurance benefits. In 2018, the percentage of Americans without health insurance was about 7.75% (assuming a population of 360mm), but this probably went down in 2019/early 2020 due to job and wage gains.

Every decision we will ever make is based on predictions. We predicted and are still predicting the effects of Covid, time will tell how things end up, but its typically better to contain the problem rather than try to deal with it later if its possible to at all.

This depends on the costs. Trying to contain the problem is going to cost lives over the long run.

I'd have to look at a lot of data before making a statement about empty hospitals, that hasn't been my experience, but I'm also looking at the mid Atlantic to northeast corridor, not the country as a whole in depth. We've got fancy statistics here on hospital capacity, death demographics and all sorts of other interesting things if you'd like to take a look. https://coronavirus.maryland.gov/

In Maryland, there are about 1,600 people in the hospital for with coronavirus. This is out of about 9,400 hospital beds in MD, and is below the surge capacity of the hospitals themselves without state or federal government assistance.

Ah, quick final thought, its a prediction that having covid right now will leave you immune next month.

Recovering from a virus will leave you immune for at least a period of time. As previously discussed, the lockdowns are intended to slow the spread, not stop it. Once between 60-70% or so of the population is immune to a disease(due to vaccination or otherwise), its transmission will stop due to herd immunity. Under a very poor case scenario, if immunity from recovering from the virus lasts less than the time it takes for 60% of the population to get and recover from the virus, the population will never get herd immunity without a vaccine that is not guaranteed to come.

On the topic of vaccines, if the world continues to be on lockdown, there will be intense pressure for drug companies to present their proposed vaccine as safe and effective, and governments will be under great pressure to approve vaccines. This could result in vaccines being approved after some corners are cut, which could result in not good outcomes.

[TECSHARE]

"Dr Buttar Accuses Fauci, Gates & The Media For Using COVID-19 To Drive Hidden Agenda"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbf9wccdxE

[TwitchySeal]

With regards to risk analysis, its a game of balancing the risk and reward. The convenience of motor vehicles is something we've agreed is worth taking the risk of dying in a car crash, but we wear seat belts and strive for higher safety engineering.

The cost of wearing a seat belt is something close to zero. The cost of closing the economy is far above zero and is costing lives (and livelihoods), and it may not even be effective. The lockdowns were not intended to prevent the majority of coronavirus deaths, they were intended to spread out coronavirus deaths, and to prevent deaths resulting from an overwhelmed healthcare system. The healthcare system is currently vastly underwhelmed.

You brought up an interesting point about the asymptomatic thing. On one hand, we may consider ourselves lucky that Covid doesn't have the 35% mortality rate of MERS. On the other hand, when you catch the flu, you know within a day or two and are then on your couch eating soup until you're feeling better. With Covid, you're running around feeling fine exposing other people who may or may not end up feeling fine. You could go out for a jog and then go chat with Grandma or little Timmy, and then they've croaked. The death statistics are important, but the hospitalization rate is also incredibly important. Assuming medical care is available, its not cheap. The things that put you in the high risk category for Covid aren't just rare lung diseases or being 97 years old. They're things like obesity, asthma, high blood pressure, and diabetes, things that effect more than 50% of Americans. There are essentially four outcomes with Covid, either you are asymptomatic and don't get sick at all, you get a really shitty but not life threatening two week illness, you end up in the hospital with a mountain of medical bills, or you die (and still wrack up medical bills). Three out of four of those are bad options, and option #1 isn't fantastic either for the sake of spread of contagion.

As discussed above, the lockdowns are not intended to prevent everyone from getting the coronavirus, only delay people from getting it. Most people have had health insurance, but less so today because millions have lost their jobs that typically provide health insurance benefits. In 2018, the percentage of Americans without health insurance was about 7.75% (assuming a population of 360mm), but this probably went down in 2019/early 2020 due to job and wage gains.

Every decision we will ever make is based on predictions. We predicted and are still predicting the effects of Covid, time will tell how things end up, but its typically better to contain the problem rather than try to deal with it later if its possible to at all.

This depends on the costs. Trying to contain the problem is going to cost lives over the long run.

I'd have to look at a lot of data before making a statement about empty hospitals, that hasn't been my experience, but I'm also looking at the mid Atlantic to northeast corridor, not the country as a whole in depth. We've got fancy statistics here on hospital capacity, death demographics and all sorts of other interesting things if you'd like to take a look. https://coronavirus.maryland.gov/

In Maryland, there are about 1,600 people in the hospital for with coronavirus. This is out of about 9,400 hospital beds in MD, and is below the surge capacity of the hospitals themselves without state or federal government assistance.

Ah, quick final thought, its a prediction that having covid right now will leave you immune next month.

Recovering from a virus will leave you immune for at least a period of time. As previously discussed, the lockdowns are intended to slow the spread, not stop it. Once between 60-70% or so of the population is immune to a disease(due to vaccination or otherwise), its transmission will stop due to herd immunity. Under a very poor case scenario, if immunity from recovering from the virus lasts less than the time it takes for 60% of the population to get and recover from the virus, the population will never get herd immunity without a vaccine that is not guaranteed to come.

On the topic of vaccines, if the world continues to be on lockdown, there will be intense pressure for drug companies to present their proposed vaccine as safe and effective, and governments will be under great pressure to approve vaccines. This could result in vaccines being approved after some corners are cut, which could result in not good outcomes.

I think there's a misconception that the reason the world is locking down is to save lives because it's sad when people die.  In reality it really is all about the economy.  When the death rate increases exponentially long enough from a mystery virus that has no cure or vaccine, it's bad for the economy.  The reason the economy is shut down right now, is not simply to save lives - it's to protect the economy.  

If we do too little, and the virus ends up being near the worst case scenario, it takes decades to recover economically, or maybe we just don't - especially if other countries do enough.

Pretty much every single argument I've heard that was against the lock down just ignores the worst case scenario and just focuses on how small of a population is actually dying or at risk of dying.  

[TECSHARE]

I think there's a misconception that the reason the world is locking down is to save lives because it's sad when people die.  In reality it really is all about the economy.  When the death rate increases exponentially long enough from a mystery virus that has no cure or vaccine, it's bad for the economy.  The reason the economy is shut down right now, is not simply to save lives - it's to protect the economy.  

If we do too little, and the virus ends up being near the worst case scenario, it takes decades to recover economically, or maybe we just don't - especially if other countries do enough.

Pretty much every single argument I've heard that was against the lock down just ignores the worst case scenario and just focuses on how small of a population is actually dying or at risk of dying. 

Your brain must be as twisted as a funnel cake with all the mental gymnastics you manage to do.

[tvbcof]

The 'new normal'  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjYc20I2T1Y