Bitcoin Forum
December 06, 2016, 02:05:36 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 [571] 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805066 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 30, 2014, 08:38:32 PM
 #11401



I do not disagree that deflation is a real risk (or that it is happening now), i disagree only that it is the expanding money supply in the form of debt that is the reason for it.

It is the reason. The higher the Debt/GDP ratio (that caused inflation) - the nearer the tipping point that leads to a reversal. Debt can't be created fast enough anymore at a debt level of 4 x GDP.

What he's missing is that the ever expanding debt is preferentially being extended to the Treasury market, ie gvt, versus the private sector by speculators looking for risk free return and leading to severe misallocations of capital and even suppression of free markets. This is deflationary.

Misallocation of capital should decrease productivity, which should drive prices higher.

So there must be something else, or, an indirect causality creating the deflation.



i think this is what you're looking for.  net shadow liabilities in the system have been dropping since 2007-8 despite new record national debt levels trying to compensate ---> deflation:

http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/epr/2013/0713adri.pdf



I agree on most of what you say in this thread. That chart does not indicate that debt is contracting yet, and including other countries, I think debt is still increasing greatly, contributing to the inflation (higher prices), as seen in consumer prices including housing, energy and capital prices which is also part of the equation. Still the equation is not exact, because the market expectations are a great part of it.

The deflation scare put forward by politicians is a tool to manipulate the hordes to accept the current money regime.


who knows for sure? 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-16/fed-fabricating-loan-data
1481033136
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481033136

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481033136
Reply with quote  #2

1481033136
Report to moderator
1481033136
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481033136

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481033136
Reply with quote  #2

1481033136
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 12:07:07 AM
 #11402

The Greater Depression

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/j--bradford-delong-argues-that-it-is-time-to-call-what-is-happening-in-europe-and-the-us-by-its-true-name?utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Project+Syndicate's+Economics+Update&utm_campaign=20140827_m121884278_Project+Syndicate's+Economics+Update&utm_term=The+Greater+Depression
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 12:49:19 AM
 #11403

Bitcoin is holding just fine as far as i'm concerned.
traderCJ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 12:49:29 AM
 #11404


If you think gold will suffer under this scenario, you're kidding yourself.  Whether Bitcoin will outperform gold is another matter.
traderCJ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 12:51:22 AM
 #11405

Bitcoin is holding just fine as far as i'm concerned.

If Bitcoin dropped to $10 tomorrow and stayed there for a year, you'd be saying the same thing.  On a long enough time line, anything can look like a good investment.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 12:51:52 AM
 #11406


Bitcoin has been outperforming gold and silver for 3 yrs now.  when are you going to learn?
traderCJ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 01:04:55 AM
 #11407


As usual, you completely missed the point (and conveniently neglect to mention Bitcoin's lousy performance this calendar year).  Who do you think you're fooling by twisting the data?
worldinacoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658



View Profile WWW
August 31, 2014, 01:09:05 AM
 #11408

I see both Gold and Bitcoin rushing up next week as Ukraine news crowd the headlines, Bitcoin and Gold will be increasingly correlated to each other and not the other way round.   Hopefully it can take the place of Gold in some areas as a safe haven currency.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
 #11409


As usual, you completely missed the point (and conveniently neglect to mention Bitcoin's lousy performance this calendar year).  Who do you think you're fooling by twisting the data?

ya know, when you first popped up here maybe 6 mo ago, you asked me to give an argument as to why Bitcoin was superior to gold.  at the time, i just ignored your trolling.  but since then, in dozens of posts not directed at you, i have in fact given numerous logical, coherent arguments as to why Bitcoin is in fact superior to gold. 

what have we all gotten from you in terms of an intellectual argument as to why gold is better than Bitcoin?  answer:  nothing.

nothing but trolling.
traderCJ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 01:14:16 AM
 #11410

I see both Gold and Bitcoin rushing up next week as Ukraine news crowd the headlines, Bitcoin and Gold will be increasingly correlated to each other and not the other way round.   Hopefully it can take the place of Gold in some areas as a safe haven currency.

Agreed.  Too many people here see this as Bitcoin vs gold, and it is counterproductive.  This will not be a binary outcome.  Prudent investors will still insist on having both tangible, inflexible assets (real estate, gold, etc) as well as intangible, flexible assets (fiat, cryptocurrency, etc).
traderCJ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 01:19:53 AM
 #11411

nothing but trolling.

cypher, you have repeatedly admitted that this is thread is your stage to troll.  Unlike you, I'm not trolling.  I've never said that gold is superior to Bitcoin in every respect or vice versa.  

To say that Bitcoin is superior to gold in all respects is patently stupid.  To state the opposite is equally stupid.  You're either colossally ignorant or just like picking fights, not really sure which.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 01:25:45 AM
 #11412

nothing but trolling.

cypher, you have repeatedly admitted that this is thread is your stage to troll.  Unlike you, I'm not trolling.  I've never said that gold is superior to Bitcoin in every respect or vice versa.  

To say that Bitcoin is superior to gold in all respects is patently stupid.  To state the opposite is equally stupid.  You're either colossally ignorant or just like picking fights, not really sure which.

yeah i said that just to provoke guys like you.  but yet i fill this thread with real content and opinion that is intellectually sound, provocative, or at least logical.  how many ppl have come forward and graciously said that this is one of their favorite or even most favorite threads?  if i was trolling, do you think they would say shit like that?  would so many ppl be following this thread including yourself, thank you very much?  this is your problem, you continually focus on the negative.

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
August 31, 2014, 01:45:15 AM
 #11413

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

Gold is fungible (no tainted ounces), durable (no electricity/internet required), universally recognized as sound money (not a newfangled Ponzi scheme), and not easy to counterfeit/easy to authenticate via density, color, acoustics, resistance, and ductility (can't be cloned or otherwise displaced by altcoins).

Gold can be made into jewelry like bangles and wedding rings, which are most helpful in finding a mate and storing wealth for a future family.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
worldinacoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658



View Profile WWW
August 31, 2014, 01:48:46 AM
 #11414

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

Gold is fungible (no tainted ounces), durable (no electricity/internet required), universally recognized as sound money (not a newfangled Ponzi scheme), and not easy to counterfeit/easy to authenticate via density, color, acoustics, resistance, and ductility (can't be cloned or otherwise displaced by altcoins).

Gold can be made into jewelry like bangles and wedding rings, which are most helpful in finding a mate and storing wealth for a future family.

Storage will cost a bomb and security considerations will be even more costly.  Using Gold to find a mate, I doubt so, Bitcoin can be used for more and more dating sites, I guess that is easier and safely than to wear a ton of gold on yourself.  Storage of wealth, Bitcoin can do as good as gold I guess, also it can be liquidated far more easily.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 01:56:09 AM
 #11415

why don't you let him speak for himself?

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

Gold is fungible (no tainted ounces),

oh really?

http://www.goldcoinbalance.com/http:/www.goldcoinbalance.com/fake-tungsten-gold-coins
Quote

 durable (no electricity/internet required),
i seriously doubt we'll get a failure of the internet.  Roll Eyes

Quote


universally recognized as sound money (not a newfangled Ponzi scheme),
who takes gold in real commerce?  and i don't mean one offs.  i mean on a regular basis like Overstock, Dell, Expedia, Newegg
Quote


and not easy to counterfeit/easy to authenticate via density, color, acoustics, resistance, and ductility (can't be cloned or otherwise displaced by altcoins).

it's actually difficult if you don't want to deface the coin or bar.  the counterfeit detectors aren't cheap.
Quote

Gold can be made into jewelry like bangles and wedding rings, which are most helpful in finding a mate and storing wealth for a future family.

gold can be easily confiscated if you have significant amounts.
STT
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1190



View Profile WWW
August 31, 2014, 02:15:49 AM
 #11416

In your link
Quote
Up to this point, nobody has been able to use Tungsten to create a fake coin because it is too brittle to be stamped

Quote
There are 3 main issues that suggest it is a fake:
1. There are small bubbles or bumps on the  coin. These are very noticeable under a loop but I did not examine it that closely when I bought it.
2. Lady Liberty’s face does not display the detail that all my other American Gold Eagles do and almost looks to be sunken or skeletal.
3. The date looks too high off the coin when compared to other American Gold Eagles.

So the guy made a mistake, he failed to pull out a bog standard household magnifying glass when spending thousands of his cash.  It would have taken him 60 seconds to ascertain by the sounds of it.   The intricate designs they often put on those coins often are not purely for show but to demonstrate workmanship, a bit like the holograms on some paper money.
   Theres been some big antique faking scams also, the value was far higher then a coin.   Everything is subject to deception, mostly gold is the easiest to check I think

Seems he was talked into a bad deal, sad to hear but gold is hard to duplicate.  Confidence tricks happen often with all sorts of goods and most quality is harder to verify then gold.
  On top of that, watch this video for another tester kit that makes clear which gold coins are not minted purely to spec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB4yyS-fDk

traderCJ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 02:31:55 AM
 #11417

why don't you let him speak for himself?

cypher, this topic has been beaten to death.  To suggest that gold has absolutely no edge over cryptocurrencies, under any circumstances, demonstrates how desperate and puerile your position has become.  You are becoming less reasonable and more evangelical by the day, and it only serves to embarrass you and your cohorts.  Hard assets have a few thousand years of history as stores of value and currency.  Cryptocurrencies, around 6 years now?  The arrogance.  You fail to understand that any cryptocurrency is simply a securely shared ledger.  Cryptocurrencies solve a host of problems.  Hard assets solve other problems.  If there were no assets but Bitcoin, what would Bitcoin be worth?

Your arguments are analogous to saying that because information can be transmitted via the internet, there is no longer any need for physical objects to be transmitted from person to person.  Hell, even lumber has more "value" than Bitcoins in certain circumstances.  Get your head out of your ass.
zeetubes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 371


View Profile
August 31, 2014, 02:33:19 AM
 #11418

"i'm expecting some bank trouble again so i've spread them out in multiple bank accounts trying to keep them close to the $250,000 limit."

Cypher, I'm pretty sure the $250K insurance is a limit and is aggregated across all fdic bank accounts. That needs verification but someone else may know for sure.
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
August 31, 2014, 02:33:39 AM
 #11419

[gleeful trolling of gold bugs]

The US Marshals easily confiscated DPR's significant amounts of BTC.  If he buried some gold in the mountains, they'll never know about it.

An Ultrasound Gold Bullion Tester sells for $350 on eBay.  An old fashioned acid test kit is under $20.  If that's not "cheap" you aren't in the target demographic for gold ownership.   Cheesy

Gold is legal tender in Utah, Missouri, and Arizona.  Central banks give and take gold in real commerce.  Remember when Dr Paul made Bernanke look like even more of a foolish chump than ever before (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NJnL10vZ1Y)?

Retail gold investment trade flourishes in the BRICs and PIIGS.  The jewelery industry alone dwarfs Bitcoin's entire market cap by an order of magnitude.

Quote
http://www.gold.org/jewellery

Demand for gold jewellery added US$70 billion to the global economy in 2012, and accounted for nearly half of global demand for gold.

Rooted deeply in a diverse tapestry of cultural traditions the aspiration to own and give gold in the form of jewellery transcends generations and national boundaries. The three largest markets for gold jewellery, China, India, and the US, each accord it a unique cultural significance. Acquiring jewellery is connected to celebrations, relationships, self-expression, and hopes for the future in these countries.  

Air Force ejection seat survival kits have gold coins, not paper wallets or fiat, for good reasons.  When you need to bribe your way past a JBT to get to safety, he's not going to go on blockchain.info and wait for confirmations.   Tongue

The internet doesn't need to go down everywhere to make crypto cash illiquid.  It only needs to fail where you happen to be (see Murphy's Law).

Tungsten-tainted coins don't make gold less fungible, as they explicitly do not meet the 'identical' requirement.  I think you'd be better off arguing 'but but conflict metals' on that point.   Wink

Cheers Doc!   Smiley

PS There are billions of people in Vietnam, Thailand, India, Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, etc. who have successfully used gold to attract mates via display of financial capacity, and provide for ensuing families, for thousands of years.  It was the same in the Occident, until the banksters took over fairly recently.  We still prefer gold wedding bands, and our language continues to teem with examples of gold being used as a metaphor for value.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 31, 2014, 02:36:19 AM
 #11420

this is interesting. you even have to watch out for the validity of the testing methods.  note how the Fisch would've missed the fakes in the video.  the maker of the video even says xray methods only test superficially:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P1h6uXDACY

http://www.thefisch.com/
Pages: « 1 ... 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 [571] 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!