Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[cypherdoc]

nothing but trolling.

cypher, you have repeatedly admitted that this is thread is your stage to troll.  Unlike you, I'm not trolling.  I've never said that gold is superior to Bitcoin in every respect or vice versa.  

To say that Bitcoin is superior to gold in all respects is patently stupid.  To state the opposite is equally stupid.  You're either colossally ignorant or just like picking fights, not really sure which.

yeah i said that just to provoke guys like you.  but yet i fill this thread with real content and opinion that is intellectually sound, provocative, or at least logical.  how many ppl have come forward and graciously said that this is one of their favorite or even most favorite threads?  if i was trolling, do you think they would say shit like that?  would so many ppl be following this thread including yourself, thank you very much?  this is your problem, you continually focus on the negative.

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

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[iCEBREAKER]

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

Gold is fungible (no tainted ounces), durable (no electricity/internet required), universally recognized as sound money (not a newfangled Ponzi scheme), and not easy to counterfeit/easy to authenticate via density, color, acoustics, resistance, and ductility (can't be cloned or otherwise displaced by altcoins).

Gold can be made into jewelry like bangles and wedding rings, which are most helpful in finding a mate and storing wealth for a future family.

[worldinacoin]

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

Gold is fungible (no tainted ounces), durable (no electricity/internet required), universally recognized as sound money (not a newfangled Ponzi scheme), and not easy to counterfeit/easy to authenticate via density, color, acoustics, resistance, and ductility (can't be cloned or otherwise displaced by altcoins).

Gold can be made into jewelry like bangles and wedding rings, which are most helpful in finding a mate and storing wealth for a future family.

Storage will cost a bomb and security considerations will be even more costly.  Using Gold to find a mate, I doubt so, Bitcoin can be used for more and more dating sites, I guess that is easier and safely than to wear a ton of gold on yourself.  Storage of wealth, Bitcoin can do as good as gold I guess, also it can be liquidated far more easily.

[cypherdoc]

why don't you let him speak for himself?

i'll take some intellectual arguments for why gold is superior now.

Gold is fungible (no tainted ounces),

oh really?

http://www.goldcoinbalance.com/http:/www.goldcoinbalance.com/fake-tungsten-gold-coins

 durable (no electricity/internet required),

i seriously doubt we'll get a failure of the internet. 

universally recognized as sound money (not a newfangled Ponzi scheme),

who takes gold in real commerce?  and i don't mean one offs.  i mean on a regular basis like Overstock, Dell, Expedia, Newegg

and not easy to counterfeit/easy to authenticate via density, color, acoustics, resistance, and ductility (can't be cloned or otherwise displaced by altcoins).

it's actually difficult if you don't want to deface the coin or bar.  the counterfeit detectors aren't cheap.

Gold can be made into jewelry like bangles and wedding rings, which are most helpful in finding a mate and storing wealth for a future family.

gold can be easily confiscated if you have significant amounts.

[STT]

In your link

Up to this point, nobody has been able to use Tungsten to create a fake coin because it is too brittle to be stamped

There are 3 main issues that suggest it is a fake:
1. There are small bubbles or bumps on the  coin. These are very noticeable under a loop but I did not examine it that closely when I bought it.
2. Lady Liberty’s face does not display the detail that all my other American Gold Eagles do and almost looks to be sunken or skeletal.
3. The date looks too high off the coin when compared to other American Gold Eagles.

So the guy made a mistake, he failed to pull out a bog standard household magnifying glass when spending thousands of his cash.  It would have taken him 60 seconds to ascertain by the sounds of it.   The intricate designs they often put on those coins often are not purely for show but to demonstrate workmanship, a bit like the holograms on some paper money.
   Theres been some big antique faking scams also, the value was far higher then a coin.   Everything is subject to deception, mostly gold is the easiest to check I think

Seems he was talked into a bad deal, sad to hear but gold is hard to duplicate.  Confidence tricks happen often with all sorts of goods and most quality is harder to verify then gold.
  On top of that, watch this video for another tester kit that makes clear which gold coins are not minted purely to spec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB4yyS-fDk

[traderCJ]

why don't you let him speak for himself?

cypher, this topic has been beaten to death.  To suggest that gold has absolutely no edge over cryptocurrencies, under any circumstances, demonstrates how desperate and puerile your position has become.  You are becoming less reasonable and more evangelical by the day, and it only serves to embarrass you and your cohorts.  Hard assets have a few thousand years of history as stores of value and currency.  Cryptocurrencies, around 6 years now?  The arrogance.  You fail to understand that any cryptocurrency is simply a securely shared ledger.  Cryptocurrencies solve a host of problems.  Hard assets solve other problems.  If there were no assets but Bitcoin, what would Bitcoin be worth?

Your arguments are analogous to saying that because information can be transmitted via the internet, there is no longer any need for physical objects to be transmitted from person to person.  Hell, even lumber has more "value" than Bitcoins in certain circumstances.  Get your head out of your ass.

[zeetubes]

"i'm expecting some bank trouble again so i've spread them out in multiple bank accounts trying to keep them close to the $250,000 limit."

Cypher, I'm pretty sure the $250K insurance is a limit and is aggregated across all fdic bank accounts. That needs verification but someone else may know for sure.

[iCEBREAKER]

[gleeful trolling of gold bugs]

The US Marshals easily confiscated DPR's significant amounts of BTC.  If he buried some gold in the mountains, they'll never know about it.

An Ultrasound Gold Bullion Tester sells for $350 on eBay.  An old fashioned acid test kit is under $20.  If that's not "cheap" you aren't in the target demographic for gold ownership.  

Gold is legal tender in Utah, Missouri, and Arizona.  Central banks give and take gold in real commerce.  Remember when Dr Paul made Bernanke look like even more of a foolish chump than ever before (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NJnL10vZ1Y)?

Retail gold investment trade flourishes in the BRICs and PIIGS.  The jewelery industry alone dwarfs Bitcoin's entire market cap by an order of magnitude.

http://www.gold.org/jewellery

Demand for gold jewellery added US$70 billion to the global economy in 2012, and accounted for nearly half of global demand for gold.

Rooted deeply in a diverse tapestry of cultural traditions the aspiration to own and give gold in the form of jewellery transcends generations and national boundaries. The three largest markets for gold jewellery, China, India, and the US, each accord it a unique cultural significance. Acquiring jewellery is connected to celebrations, relationships, self-expression, and hopes for the future in these countries.  

Air Force ejection seat survival kits have gold coins, not paper wallets or fiat, for good reasons.  When you need to bribe your way past a JBT to get to safety, he's not going to go on blockchain.info and wait for confirmations.  

The internet doesn't need to go down everywhere to make crypto cash illiquid.  It only needs to fail where you happen to be (see Murphy's Law).

Tungsten-tainted coins don't make gold less fungible, as they explicitly do not meet the 'identical' requirement.  I think you'd be better off arguing 'but but conflict metals' on that point.  

Cheers Doc!  

PS There are billions of people in Vietnam, Thailand, India, Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, etc. who have successfully used gold to attract mates via display of financial capacity, and provide for ensuing families, for thousands of years.  It was the same in the Occident, until the banksters took over fairly recently.  We still prefer gold wedding bands, and our language continues to teem with examples of gold being used as a metaphor for value.

[cypherdoc]

this is interesting. you even have to watch out for the validity of the testing methods.  note how the Fisch would've missed the fakes in the video.  the maker of the video even says xray methods only test superficially:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P1h6uXDACY

http://www.thefisch.com/

[cypherdoc]

"i'm expecting some bank trouble again so i've spread them out in multiple bank accounts trying to keep them close to the $250,000 limit."

Cypher, I'm pretty sure the $250K insurance is a limit and is aggregated across all fdic bank accounts. That needs verification but someone else may know for sure.

no, it's per account.

[notme]

Good point.  Increasing productivity has been known to cause deflation since at least Adam Smith (1776).  I still don't see how collapse of debt (which reduces the demand for money because now that debt isn't going to be repaid) causes deflation.  If you have to make debt payments, you will try make sure you have enough dollars to pay them.  This is why debt increases demand for dollars.  Again, yes initial issuance is short term inflationary, but I don't see how you can claim it is inflationary overall.

you're over thinking this.

money supply = monetary base + mostly credit/debt.  in the run up into the 2008 high in housing and stocks, ppl leveraged up to buy both assets.  when the bubble burst, margin calls went out to stock holders and home owners found they could no longer make mortgage payments.  what do you do in that situation?  panic sell at lower prices to limit your losses.  the whole process began to snowball with stocks and home values plunging as a result along with widespread debt defaults.  oil dropped to $30. gold hit its 9 yr cycle low. all that leverage started coming out of the system (deflation) and there was a worldwide scramble for USD's to pay off that liquidated debt as well as a run to safety into UST's which only exacerbates the deflation associated with Fed policy to manipulate rates downwards during normal times.

of course you can never rule it out.  but i really don't think so.

first off, both Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe did not have functioning bond markets.  Germany was just coming off the war and really had no infrastructure so the only way they could get money out to its citizens and to pay off war reparations was to print.  the massive potential for all the US debt build to deflate thru defaults is likely to win in the medium to long term. after a big washout, maybe hyperinflation is possible.  but not until then.  also, the monetary velocity chart is going nowhere but down right now along with interest rates.  that's deflation.  if ppl were dumping their cash as fast as possible, it would be going up instead.  what ppl are doing is saving like crazy.  banking deposits are way up and ppl are clinging to what cash they have.  i know this from my own accounts.  i've pulled out of the stock mkt and my deposit accounts are brimming.  i'm expecting some bank trouble again so i've spread them out in multiple bank accounts trying to keep them close to the $250,000 limit.  also saving in Bitcoin obviously.  as long as the USD remains the petrocurrency and our military remains strong the USD is likely to go up in a deflationary event as it did in 2008.  the good news for most Americans is that our price of goods and services has not gone up significantly.  sure, in some areas it has, like student tuitions and healthcare premiums.  but even $4 gas hasn't been too bad and food is relatively inexpensive.  in short, i don't see the USD plummeting just yet and the charts i've been putting up indicate we may be starting a major rally.

for the same reasons i argue that Bitcoin will win the altcoin space as ppl gravitate to one currency for efficiency reasons and the network effect, i think that Bitcoin wins over gold.  as long as Bitcoin can remain secure, there is every reason to like it better than gold.  definitive fixed supply, portable, divisible, transportable, room for growth, intangible, not encumbered by a paper market (yet), unreachable by gvt, etc.  so no, i don't think they will go up together.  for the last 3 yrs, we've already seen them go in opposite directions.  gold has failed in its historical role as an enforcer to UST's.

Emphasis mine.  This has been my point all along.  Deflation does cause defaults, and defaults cascade due to rehypothecation, but when it all is said and done, the end result is inflationary.  When the debt is not defaulted on and ends up being paid back, then overall it has a deflationary effect, which continues until someone can't afford their debt.

[cypherdoc]

why don't you let him speak for himself?

cypher, this topic has been beaten to death.  To suggest that gold has absolutely no edge over cryptocurrencies, under any circumstances, demonstrates how desperate and puerile your position has become.  You are becoming less reasonable and more evangelical by the day, and it only serves to embarrass you and your cohorts.  Hard assets have a few thousand years of history as stores of value and currency.  Cryptocurrencies, around 6 years now?  The arrogance.  You fail to understand that any cryptocurrency is simply a securely shared ledger.  Cryptocurrencies solve a host of problems.  Hard assets solve other problems.  If there were no assets but Bitcoin, what would Bitcoin be worth?

Your arguments are analogous to saying that because information can be transmitted via the internet, there is no longer any need for physical objects to be transmitted from person to person.  Hell, even lumber has more "value" than Bitcoins in certain circumstances.  Get your head out of your ass.

actually, the Bitcoin > gold argument has been making tremendous strides, if you hadn't noticed.  and the inverse price action since gold's top in Sept 2011 has caught everyone's attention, rightfully so.  more and more of the gold evangelists have started migrating over to Bitcoin and even accepting Bitcoin for gold.  gold mining stocks have been obliterated with GDXJ at it's all time low.  no wonder given how destructive a ledger technology it really has been shown to be:

http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/



silver has been literally obliterated by Bitcoin.  as i said further up the thread, gold is failing miserably at its long time historical regulator of loose interest rate policy.  if it can't act as a check on the fiat CB system and UST's, what good is it, especially when it can't even hold its price?

i've never argued gold has no value.  it has industrial value of around $250/oz.  but it's crap as money.  get your head out of your ass.

[tvbcof]

cypher, this topic has been beaten to death.  To suggest that gold has absolutely no edge over cryptocurrencies, under any circumstances, demonstrates how desperate and puerile your position has become.  You are becoming less reasonable and more evangelical by the day, and it only serves to embarrass you and your cohorts...

...Get your head out of your ass.

Don't stay up nights waiting for this.

[traderCJ]

cypher, this topic has been beaten to death.  To suggest that gold has absolutely no edge over cryptocurrencies, under any circumstances, demonstrates how desperate and puerile your position has become.  You are becoming less reasonable and more evangelical by the day, and it only serves to embarrass you and your cohorts...

...Get your head out of your ass.

Don't stay up nights waiting for this.

Indeed.

[cypherdoc]

cypher, this topic has been beaten to death.  To suggest that gold has absolutely no edge over cryptocurrencies, under any circumstances, demonstrates how desperate and puerile your position has become.  You are becoming less reasonable and more evangelical by the day, and it only serves to embarrass you and your cohorts...

...Get your head out of your ass.

Don't stay up nights waiting for this.

Indeed.

this is actually a good sign for Bitcoin (Gold 2.0) advocates.  the gold resistance continues to be strong, angry, and defiant despite the wipeout.  

it's early innings.

[cypherdoc]

i don't really see a problem, do you?

[traderCJ]

actually, the Bitcoin > gold argument has been making tremendous strides, if you hadn't noticed.

Based on what, the exchange rate between gold and Bitcoin?  I could argue that the DJIA index > gold or Bitcoin just based over the past 12 months.  Or is your argument that because some people are converting gold to Bitcoin, Bitcoin > gold?  Does that mean that computer components > Bitcoin if people use Bitcoin at Newegg?  It's a currency, of course people will convert between it and other assets.  That's the whole point.

Dollars make better currency than real estate, but does that mean that "dollars > real estate"?

silver has been literally obliterated by Bitcoin.  as i said further up the thread, gold is failing miserably at its long time historical regulator of loose interest rate policy.  if it can't act as a check on the fiat CB system and UST's, what good is it, especially when it can't even hold its price?

Again, based on exchange rate?  If something outperforms Bitcoin over a period of time (gold, DJIA, whatever), does that mean it has "obliterated" Bitcoin?  Silver and Bitcoin solve different problems.  You're stating that gold cannot "hold it's price", but what about Bitcoin?  Your language is deliberately vague to mislead.

i've never argued gold has no value.  it has industrial value of around $250/oz.  but it's crap as money.  get your head out of your ass.

Hard assets have been lousy currencies ever since bankers realized they could exchange notes of credit instead of those assets.  But that's not the point.  Gold doesn't need to be a currency to have value.  What "industrial value" does a home have?  Or a sports car?  Or a hockey team?

[traderCJ]

this is actually a good sign for Bitcoin (Gold 2.0) advocates.  the gold resistance continues to be strong, angry, and defiant despite the wipeout.  

it's early innings.

You're basing all of this on the "wipeout"?  In other words, you're saying that gold is inferior because if you bought at X date and sold at Y date, you would have taken it in the pants?  Gold pot, meet Bitcoin kettle.  You're certifiably nuts ..

i don't really see a problem, do you?

Ah the old "past performance predicts future performance" racket.

[cypherdoc]

actually, the Bitcoin > gold argument has been making tremendous strides, if you hadn't noticed.

Based on what, the exchange rate between gold and Bitcoin?

yes. we're all investors here after all.

I could argue that the DJIA index > gold or Bitcoin just based over the past 12 months.

huh?  1 yr ago Bitcoin was 125 or 4x what it is now.  the Dow hasn't performed even close to that

Or is your argument that because some people are converting gold to Bitcoin, Bitcoin > gold?  Does that mean that computer components > Bitcoin if people use Bitcoin at Newegg?  It's a currency, of course people will convert between it and other assets.  That's the whole point.

Dollars make better currency than real estate, but does that mean that "dollars > real estate"?

more and more ppl are converting their gold to Bitcoin.  the exchange rates indicate that along with the charts.  one can also feel the sentiment shifting if you're well enough read.

silver has been literally obliterated by Bitcoin.  as i said further up the thread, gold is failing miserably at its long time historical regulator of loose interest rate policy.  if it can't act as a check on the fiat CB system and UST's, what good is it, especially when it can't even hold its price?

Again, based on exchange rate?  If something outperforms Bitcoin over a period of time (gold, DJIA, whatever), does that mean it has "obliterated" Bitcoin?  Silver and Bitcoin solve different problems.  You're stating that gold cannot "hold it's price", but what about Bitcoin?  Your language is deliberately vague to mislead.

right.  i'm trying to mislead ppl here.  look, i've lived my spoken words literally since April 2011 when i started liquidating my silver so clearly i believe in what i'm saying.

i've never argued gold has no value.  it has industrial value of around $250/oz.  but it's crap as money.  get your head out of your ass.

Hard assets have been lousy currencies ever since bankers realized they could exchange notes of credit instead of those assets.  But that's not the point.  Gold doesn't need to be a currency to have value.  What "industrial value" does a home have?  Or a sports car?  Or a hockey team?

it is a major point in a long list of points as to why Bitcoin is superior, both as a store of value, and as a currency.  it's this multifunctionality that is resonating with investors and consumers.  many of us have been able to sit on BTC obtained since 2011 and watch our monthly expenses for services plunge in BTC terms as the price rose.  try that with gold.

[zeetubes]

ZH: "It's Settled: Central Banks Trade S&P500 Futures"

if it is indeed settled then it wouldn't be a huge shock. Your government dollars at work.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-30/its-settled-central-banks-trade-sp500-futures#comment-5163811