Bitcoin Forum
October 20, 2017, 11:13:37 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 [1051] 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1996448 times)
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 07:34:58 PM
 #21001

...
Yes Bitcoin provides a superior SoV function, but it has a superior Payment-Function to fiat and that is what will slowly win over individuals. Essentially Bitcoin provides all the benefits of fiat ledger money with the benefits of direct control/interaction (no middlemen), this combined with personal computing creates a vastly superior Payment-Function, which is what will drive adoption.
...

Bitcoin has a superior payment function *right now*. In theory, there's nothing preventing a cheap, global, fiat payment system except rent-seeking and politics. Granted those are strong forces, but in the face of enough competitive pressure from Bitcoin, the legacy system will be spurred to improve. That may already be happening as a direct result of Bitcoin, if you read between the lines of the Fed's recent payment-system-improvement paper.

So I think we need to expect that the legacy payment system is going to get a lot better quickly. Bitcoin will still have many broader payment-sys advantages (eg, no international friction, immunity to capital controls, etc), but the day-to-day "save 3% on CCs", or "don't wait 3 days for an EFT" arguments are going to be moot at some point in the not too distant future. Best to be conscious of that now in order to focus efforts where BTC has the longrun advantage.

Good points, fully agree.

The challenge for the FED though is even if they fully see Bitcoin for the threat it is and take an "all hands on deck" approach to completely revamp the current dollar system to better compete with Bitcoin, what will hinder them are the mountains of regulations they and their banking partners have created (ironically to entrench their position).

Sure the FED could create a Bitcoin style direct access for the dollar, but will anybody be able to directly access it? Or will the next changetip be required to go through mountains of regulatory approval requiring millions in startup funding that does not go directly to product development?

The other challenge for the FED is cross boarder transactions, which are critical in our multi-national world today. The FED can only create a US centric dollar, while Bitcoin is global. Humanity wants a single unit of money. The FED can only address this by assuming the dollar is the global unit of account, which it is today but many countries want off.

What Bitcoin has going for it is that it is censorship resistant and governments know they cannot control it. If it was in any possible to control Bitcoin the US government would have already shut it down the same as other attempts such as the Liberty Dollar.

Your point though is Bitcoin will start to see real competition, which is a good thing. That competition is why I think Bitcoin needs the ability to improve functionality over time through market based approaches (not centralized developers). This is why I think some form of SCs could be useful (if properly/carefully implemented, not Blockstream's approach), a good version of SCs could enable Bitcoin to extend it's functionality in a market based fashion, and compete with an aggressive FED. I've come around somewhat to Adrian's and cypherdoc's view though that the current Blockstream approach is at best not fully understood and more likely a threat to bitcoin.
1508541217
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508541217

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508541217
Reply with quote  #2

1508541217
Report to moderator
1508541217
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508541217

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508541217
Reply with quote  #2

1508541217
Report to moderator
1508541217
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508541217

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508541217
Reply with quote  #2

1508541217
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 07:41:30 PM
 #21002

What is heartbreaking to read in this history, is instead of learning from their mistakes and return to a decentralized and market based system that worked, FDR doubled down and created regulations in the place of market forces and banned individual ownership of money, and he was cheered for it. This is the moment America choose security over freedom and when the experiment failed IMHO.

"If a problem seems intractable, enlarge it"

This is a commonplace government solution method, and it is often how we get bigger governments.

The point to this long winded post is paper backed gold can (and did) work, it's just that it requires a decentralized system that can withstand individual failures and uses market forces to keep honesty. Sound familiar?

More recently, the Liberty Dollar.  A gold and silver backed ledger using warehouse receipts, audited monthly.  All the audits were perfect and showed zero leverage.  The US federal government could not believe that someone would actually do this (because they don't) and so accused it of fraud and counterfeiting and conspiracy.  As it turned out there wasn't any fraud, and after fighting the case for the last 6 years, the government is finally returning the gold and silver.

Isn't there a saying along the lines of to a thief everyone looks like a criminal?

Haven't followed the Liberty Dollar case closely. Were they convicted of anything? If not, are the courts going to let them operate again, or return their property but still ban them from operating "just because"?

"If a problem seems intractable, enlarge it"

It was also the approach used in 2008 to a debt problem, create 100% more debt to fix it despite the fact the private market clearly wanted no more.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
February 04, 2015, 08:00:11 PM
 #21003

Finex bouncing
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 08:02:27 PM
 #21004

Bitcoin coming to NASCAR. More advertising, more infrastructure in place.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/bitpay-coming-to-nascar-on-justin-bostons-kbm-truck-at-daytona/
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
February 04, 2015, 08:07:56 PM
 #21005

http://www.storyleak.com/email-confirms-bank-americas-social-media-trolling-spy-team/

brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 08:32:05 PM
 #21006

Bitcoin coming to NASCAR. More advertising, more infrastructure in place.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/bitpay-coming-to-nascar-on-justin-bostons-kbm-truck-at-daytona/

Waste of money imo.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
February 04, 2015, 08:50:15 PM
 #21007

ECB Pulls The Trigger: Blocks Funding To Greece - Full Statement

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-04/ecb-pulls-trigger-blocks-funding-greece
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 09:33:48 PM
 #21008


It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors...
Chalkbot
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 892



View Profile
February 04, 2015, 09:39:21 PM
 #21009


It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors...

Let's not forget NASCAR probably gets some viewers WAY out of their usual demographic. See the Dogecar madness for reference.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 09:56:37 PM
 #21010


It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors...

And I care even less about a few hundred small independent businesses dumping BTC for fiat.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 11:23:52 PM
 #21011


It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors...

And I care even less about a few hundred small independent businesses dumping BTC for fiat.

Guess I don't see that as a pathway to BTC dumping, I see this type of adoption as increasing the velocity of Bitcoin. Increased velocity in turn increases the economic value of held bitcoins.

A hundred thousand bitcoiners acting as Smaug lording over their BTC in cold storage will never increase it's value. I spend my BTC under a buy-and-replace mode, I'm sure some of that translates into increased holdings by others (both overstock and newegg keep some for example).

Bitpay's customers are merchant businesses, their advertising is designed to get more merchants to offer bitcoin as a payment option. This is great advertising for Bitcoin because each converted merchant becomes a Bitcoin promoter themselves by offering bitcoin as a payment option.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 11:36:53 PM
 #21012

Updated draft on Benny's BitLicense

http://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/regulations/revised_vc_regulation.pdf

Quote
Section 200.10 Material change to business

(a) Each Licensee must obtain the superintendent’s prior written approval for any plan or proposal to introduce or offer a new product, service, or activity, or to make a material change to an existing product, service, or activity, involving New York or New York Residents.
(b) A “material change” may occur where:
(1) a change is proposed to an existing product, service, or activity that may cause such product, service, or activity to be materially different from that previously listed on the application for licensing by the superintendent;
(2) the proposed change may raise a legal or regulatory issue about the permissibility of the product, service, or activity; or
(3) the proposed change may raise safety and soundness or operational concerns.
(c) The Licensee shall submit a written plan describing the proposed new product, service, or activity, or the proposed material change, including a detailed description of the business operations, compliance policies, and the impact on the overall business of the Licensee, as well as such other information as requested by the superintendent. If a Licensee has any questions about the materiality of any proposed change, the Licensee may seek clarification from the Department prior to making that change

"May raise safety and soundness or operational concerns", this captures everything.

I heard that when the movie industry first started, one of the main reasons it left NY and the east coast in general to setup camp in an empty desert in CA, was due to regulatory burdens. CA was still the wild west in the very early 1900s.

History repeating itself
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 11:42:04 PM
 #21013


It is a segment with small government and anti-FED sentiment, that is also non-technical. That is a good segment to target. If bitpay can use this to get a few hundred more small independent businesses to accept bitcoin that's a win in my book. Don't really care about the ROI to bitpay's investors...

And I care even less about a few hundred small independent businesses dumping BTC for fiat.

Guess I don't see that as a pathway to BTC dumping, I see this type of adoption as increasing the velocity of Bitcoin. Increased velocity in turn increases the economic value of held bitcoins.

A hundred thousand bitcoiners acting as Smaug lording over their BTC in cold storage will never increase it's value. I spend my BTC under a buy-and-replace mode, I'm sure some of that translates into increased holdings by others (both overstock and newegg keep some for example).

Bitpay's customers are merchant businesses, their advertising is designed to get more merchants to offer bitcoin as a payment option. This is great advertising for Bitcoin because each converted merchant becomes a Bitcoin promoter themselves by offering bitcoin as a payment option.

"See how awesome Bitcoin is, we'll help you get rid of them right here!"

The "buy-and-replace" is not really something everyone can afford.

"Anytime BTC is transfered to recipient not interested in holding our objectives are being diminished"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAnBm0WweDw

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1568



View Profile
February 04, 2015, 11:43:18 PM
 #21014

"Anytime BTC is transfered to recipient not interested in holding our objectives are being diminished"

Sounds like nonsense. If the recipient doesn't hold then he transfers to someone who does.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 04, 2015, 11:51:33 PM
 #21015

The "buy-and-replace" is not really something everyone can afford.

Sorry brg, but I don't get this.

If someone wants to buy something for $50 on website A, they can:
1) Pay $50 directly, or
2) Pay $50 worth of held BTC, then purchase $50 of BTC at the same moment.

The results are exactly the same in both cases, the person pays $50 and ends up with the exact same amount of BTC. "buy-and-replace" is a wash and perfectly affordable by anyone.

"Anytime BTC is transfered to recipient not interested in holding our objectives are being diminished"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAnBm0WweDw

Again, I don't get this.

Take the 1) and 2) example above. In both cases the held BTC by the original purchaser are identical. There is an additional chance that some BTC on the merchant side is held. This means that the action of #2 increases BTC ownership, while the action of #1 does not.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
February 05, 2015, 12:02:25 AM
 #21016

The "buy-and-replace" is not really something everyone can afford.

Sorry brg, but I don't get this.

If someone wants to buy something for $50 on website A, they can:
1) Pay $50 directly, or
2) Pay $50 worth of held BTC, then purchase $50 of BTC at the same moment.

The results are exactly the same in both cases, the person pays $50 and ends up with the exact same amount of BTC. "buy-and-replace" is a wash and perfectly affordable by anyone.

Option 2) implies that an additional portion of that someone's money is available and can be allocated to what can be considered a risky/volatile investment

If I spend 50$ of my BTC today I may not have an additional 50$ in liquidity to allocate to BTC. It's only a wash if we pretend that the $50 remains stable in value

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
February 05, 2015, 12:47:55 AM
 #21017

The "buy-and-replace" is not really something everyone can afford.

Sorry brg, but I don't get this.

If someone wants to buy something for $50 on website A, they can:
1) Pay $50 directly, or
2) Pay $50 worth of held BTC, then purchase $50 of BTC at the same moment.

The results are exactly the same in both cases, the person pays $50 and ends up with the exact same amount of BTC. "buy-and-replace" is a wash and perfectly affordable by anyone.

Option 2) implies that an additional portion of that someone's money is available and can be allocated to what can be considered a risky/volatile investment

If I spend 50$ of my BTC today I may not have an additional 50$ in liquidity to allocate to BTC. It's only a wash if we pretend that the $50 remains stable in value

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Buy-and-replace by definition assumes the person starts with both BTC and dollars.

Starting assumption in this example. Person holds the following and wants to buy shoes:
- 1 BTC (and plans to keep holding 1 BTC)
- $50

Option 1) Pay $50 directly - Here the person keeps the 1 BTC and transfers $50 directly to the merchant. Ends up with 1 BTC, shoes and no dollars.

Option 2) Pay with Bitcoin through buy-and-replace - Here the person transfers 0.25 BTC (assume $200/BTC) directly to the merchant, they also buy 0.25 BTC for $50. Ends up with 1 BTC, shoes and no dollars.

Both cases work out the exact same. There is no change in the amount of BTC they hold or dollars they needed to spend. In both cases the person ends up with:
- 1 BTC (their original amount they planned to hold)
- Shoes

The only difference is now that merchant has 0.25 BTC instead of $50. Maybe the merchant immediately sells for dollars, but in some cases they hold a percentage. This means that Option 2 slowly increases bitcoin ownership. This is velocity.
sidhujag
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610


View Profile
February 05, 2015, 03:23:26 AM
 #21018

M2 velocity is all that matters the rest is implied. Doesnt matter where it goes

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
Zangelbert Bingledack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036


View Profile
February 05, 2015, 04:28:16 AM
 #21019

The only difference is now that merchant has 0.25 BTC instead of $50. Maybe the merchant immediately sells for dollars, but in some cases they hold a percentage. This means that Option 2 slowly increases bitcoin ownership. This is velocity.

More to the point, you bought 0.25 BTC, bidding up the price. If the merchant immediately sells the BTC, it's a wash as far as bidding the price of BTC up or down (but the merchant sees greater value in BTC, incentivizing them toward holding in the future). If the merchant doesn't immediately sell, for the duration that they do hold - whether just a day or a month or long term - there are fewer bitcoins available on the market, pushing the price up.

So a purchase made through buy-and-replace is at worst slightly positive for the BTC price, and at best substantially positive.

Simpler way to think about it: The more bitcoins "in the pipeline" of transaction processing, the less available on the market, hence the higher the price. Like if you had a bunch of buckets of water with hoses running between them. The more hoses and the more full they are, the less water will be in the buckets at any given time. Less water available means water is scarcer, dearer, more expensive.

What about people just spending their coins? Insofar as this is understood (consciously or unconsciously), any spending that happens will merely be in lieu of selling, by holders who are looking to unload some in order to rebalance their Bitcoin-to-fiat portfolio. In that case the same applies: at worst slightly positive, at best substantially positive.

But what about the case of an impulse buy where a holder acts temporarily against their own portfolio balancing target and spends their coins even though they are already low on BTC? Well there is no obvious reason to think there wouldn't be an equal number of holders who temporarily act against their portfolio target in the opposite direction. It's a wash.

Overall, then, merchant adoption is at worst slightly positive for the price, just in terms of the economics, not even taking into account the positive publicity effects and the increased value in the eyes of merchants who are now getting a revenue stream via Bitcoin.

All that said, I don't think merchant adoption is the main thing that will drive the price higher for the next few years. The main thing is good old fashioned hoarding.

Conclusion: Don't worry about merchant adoption. If it happens, good, it will just add a little extra boost to the exponential growth. If it doesn't it's nothing to worry about. Investors are the ones that will drive the lion's share of growth for the foreseeable future.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
February 05, 2015, 04:32:56 AM
 #21020

This is a really cool service:

https://mailchuck.com/
Pages: « 1 ... 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 [1051] 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!