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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2028336 times)
justusranvier
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February 05, 2015, 02:59:25 PM
 #21021

By the way, part 2 will be out... soonish.
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February 05, 2015, 03:40:01 PM
 #21022


Great! I'm waiting for it eagerly.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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February 05, 2015, 05:11:24 PM
 #21023

I Lol,ed Check out @BankableInsight's Tweet: https://twitter.com/BankableInsight/status/540925405142999041?s=09

Could be Photoshop bit on second thought by comparison noob Bitcoin traders are not superstitious.

This is where fiat is heading.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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February 05, 2015, 05:24:51 PM
 #21024

Federated version of the Sidechains will be released in 1-2 months

http://insidebitcoins.com/news/gregory-maxwell-demo-sidechains-to-be-available-in-a-few-months/29531

Quote
Testing sidechains before the soft-fork

After explaining how this federated, demo version of sidechains would work, Maxwell went on to explain what happens after this version of sidechains has been tested in the wild:

“Beyond [federated sidechains], we have to see where it goes from there. It’ll take some time for the initial system to mature and for people to gain confidence enough to start saying, ‘OK. Well where can we start introducing the soft-forking, additional scrypt opcodes to make it so you can do it without the functionaries — without the federation.”

can't wait to see some of this in the wild. 

I like federated pegs, but every time I read confident statements like bold above I feel compelled to cash out a little early.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
rocks
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February 05, 2015, 05:55:16 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2015, 06:46:42 PM by rocks
 #21025

Federated version of the Sidechains will be released in 1-2 months

http://insidebitcoins.com/news/gregory-maxwell-demo-sidechains-to-be-available-in-a-few-months/29531

Quote
Testing sidechains before the soft-fork

After explaining how this federated, demo version of sidechains would work, Maxwell went on to explain what happens after this version of sidechains has been tested in the wild:

“Beyond [federated sidechains], we have to see where it goes from there. It’ll take some time for the initial system to mature and for people to gain confidence enough to start saying, ‘OK. Well where can we start introducing the soft-forking, additional scrypt opcodes to make it so you can do it without the functionaries — without the federation.”

can't wait to see some of this in the wild.  

I like federated pegs, but every time I read confident statements like bold above I feel compelled to cash out a little early.

I've come around to your concerns in that federated pegs in the long run may pull enough transactions off the main chain that it weakens the network. i.e. What happens if people only use various SCs and the main chain is only used to settle value between them? Does that generate enough fees?

Of course bitcoin has the same issue with centralized services. Take changetip as an example, all of their transactions happen off chain and do not contribute. They only interact with the main chain and provide fees when BTC is eventually withdrawn from the changetip service.

Over time Bitcoin could very easily turn into a collection of centralized services that all enable people to function off the main chain, and the main chain is only used for transferring value between these services. Maybe that is enough to protect the network, maybe not.

Federated pegs and side chains could actually improve this situation, but only if they are structured so that their transactions support the main chain as well. Merged mining is one possible solution, I'm sure there are others. The key is to structure them as child chains, not side chains. Essentially bitcoin needs to maintain its self-contained structure with no external dependencies, child chains that are dependent on the main chain and also contribute their economic value to the main chain (through merged mining) do that.
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February 05, 2015, 07:28:07 PM
 #21026

Quote
The Observer has learned that this would not be the first time that Wells Fargo has expressed deep concern about crypto, specifically singling out Mr. McCaleb for special scrutiny. Until the beginning of 2014, Wells Fargo had a whole task force at its highest level comprising 20 of its top executives and advisors, including Susan Athey, a Stanford economics professor who sits on Ripple Labs’ board. They were marching forward to be the first U.S. bank to dive into crypto. All of a sudden, in March, just after the February collapse of Mt. Gox, they did a complete 180, shutting down the entire program that had been exploring crypto.

http://observer.com/2015/02/the-race-to-replace-bitcoin

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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yes


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February 05, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
 #21027

Good stuff: http://www.safehaven.com/article/36601/how-will-hackers-help-build-a-libertarian-21st-century

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DeepOnion
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ANN  Whitepaper  Facebook  Twitter  Telegram  Discord 





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LewiesMan
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February 05, 2015, 07:42:40 PM
 #21028


Hackers = Bad for bitcoin.
Adrian-x
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February 05, 2015, 08:07:27 PM
 #21029

Federated version of the Sidechains will be released in 1-2 months

http://insidebitcoins.com/news/gregory-maxwell-demo-sidechains-to-be-available-in-a-few-months/29531

Quote
Testing sidechains before the soft-fork

After explaining how this federated, demo version of sidechains would work, Maxwell went on to explain what happens after this version of sidechains has been tested in the wild:

“Beyond [federated sidechains], we have to see where it goes from there. It’ll take some time for the initial system to mature and for people to gain confidence enough to start saying, ‘OK. Well where can we start introducing the soft-forking, additional scrypt opcodes to make it so you can do it without the functionaries — without the federation.”

can't wait to see some of this in the wild.  

I like federated pegs, but every time I read confident statements like bold above I feel compelled to cash out a little early.

I've come around to your concerns in that federated pegs in the long run may pull enough transactions off the main chain that it weakens the network. i.e. What happens if people only use various SCs and the main chain is only used to settle value between them? Does that generate enough fees?

Of course bitcoin has the same issue with centralized services. Take changetip as an example, all of their transactions happen off chain and do not contribute. They only interact with the main chain and provide fees when BTC is eventually withdrawn from the changetip service.

Over time Bitcoin could very easily turn into a collection of centralized services that all enable people to function off the main chain, and the main chain is only used for transferring value between these services. Maybe that is enough to protect the network, maybe not.

Federated pegs and side chains could actually improve this situation, but only if they are structured so that their transactions support the main chain as well. Merged mining is one possible solution, I'm sure there are others. The key is to structure them as child chains, not side chains. Essentially bitcoin needs to maintain its self-contained structure with no external dependencies, child chains that are dependent on the main chain and also contribute their economic value to the main chain (through merged mining) do that.

Centralized services should use things like federated pegs (without SPV proofs) and OT Servers, that have a central controller, one then needs to trust the service, and there in lies the risk that makes the market system work. Ultimately we need to trust the people we give our money too to deliver and we need to trust the money, making a trust less system like SideChains for those to manage out money does very little to improve the trust in the goods and services, it allows for more complexity like the FED hides inflation. Bitcoin solves the trust in money, SideChains in part propose to solve the trust how the money is managed, but does nothing to solve the trust in actors and there goods and services, trusting in the goods and services is an inherent risk in business, trust is earned by being a good actor, not by using a SideChain.

yes SideChains can make new types of products viable but those are fringe, not the function of over 95% of human labor and consumer products the bulk of what the economy needs to function, those are best served with nothing more than trust in money, heaven forbid a Sidechain ever becomes a Bitcoin money substitute.  

I'm not concerned with centralized services, like ChangeTip, they will have a balancing act to follow managing PR, Value, overheads and the underlying infrastructure they depend on there will come a time for disruption when they become top heavy and start making mistakes.

SideChains don't make a service like ChangeTip better, (federated pegs or OT type services could) OT for example would aloe me to trust ChaingeTip more than say r/bitcointip who appear to have destroyed a lot of bitcoin, but a SideChain with SPV proofs merge mined by Bitcoin miners or worse managed by a PoS could turn it into a Bitcoin cancer at the protocol level.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
silverfuture
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central banking = outdated protocol


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February 05, 2015, 08:20:08 PM
 #21030


You didn't read the article, did you?

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February 05, 2015, 10:13:04 PM
 #21031

Quote
The Observer has learned that this would not be the first time that Wells Fargo has expressed deep concern about crypto, specifically singling out Mr. McCaleb for special scrutiny. Until the beginning of 2014, Wells Fargo had a whole task force at its highest level comprising 20 of its top executives and advisors, including Susan Athey, a Stanford economics professor who sits on Ripple Labs’ board. They were marching forward to be the first U.S. bank to dive into crypto. All of a sudden, in March, just after the February collapse of Mt. Gox, they did a complete 180, shutting down the entire program that had been exploring crypto.

http://observer.com/2015/02/the-race-to-replace-bitcoin


Ah, the joys of heavily pre-mined alts

Quote
Meanwhile, after nearly a year off the grid, Mr. McCaleb had another idea for a company. This one was going to be a distributed consensus-based cryptocurrency, just like Ripple Labs—so much so that it was going to use all of Ripple Labs’ code, which was open source and available to anyone. But Mr. McCaleb had two aces up his sleeve that he hoped could allow his new company to soar above the one he just left. First, he still had the door open on the squashed Stripe deal. Second, he still held those 9 billion XRPs—a nice nest egg to turn into cash. And if dumping them hurt his former partners and company—a company he founded and on whose board he still remained, despite never showing up for board meetings—well, all the better.

On May 22, 2014, Mr. McCaleb announced via a posting on Ripple Labs’ message board, “I plan to start selling all of my remaining XRP beginning in two weeks.  …. So just fyi…. xrp sales incoming.” The announcement by a founder that he intended to dump 9 billion units of the currency he helped create was perceived as a threat by all who cared about Ripple Labs or held XRPs. It would be hard to imagine a founder and board member of a public company announcing he was going to flood the market by selling his stock; that would be an obvious and illegal attempt at market manipulation, not to mention ridiculously juvenile.

It gets into some pretty ugly personal life / bad father stuff from there.

The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.
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February 05, 2015, 10:58:17 PM
 #21032

Federated version of the Sidechains will be released in 1-2 months

http://insidebitcoins.com/news/gregory-maxwell-demo-sidechains-to-be-available-in-a-few-months/29531

Quote
Testing sidechains before the soft-fork

After explaining how this federated, demo version of sidechains would work, Maxwell went on to explain what happens after this version of sidechains has been tested in the wild:

“Beyond [federated sidechains], we have to see where it goes from there. It’ll take some time for the initial system to mature and for people to gain confidence enough to start saying, ‘OK. Well where can we start introducing the soft-forking, additional scrypt opcodes to make it so you can do it without the functionaries — without the federation.”

can't wait to see some of this in the wild.  

I like federated pegs, but every time I read confident statements like bold above I feel compelled to cash out a little early.

I've come around to your concerns in that federated pegs in the long run may pull enough transactions off the main chain that it weakens the network. i.e. What happens if people only use various SCs and the main chain is only used to settle value between them? Does that generate enough fees?

Of course bitcoin has the same issue with centralized services. Take changetip as an example, all of their transactions happen off chain and do not contribute. They only interact with the main chain and provide fees when BTC is eventually withdrawn from the changetip service.

Over time Bitcoin could very easily turn into a collection of centralized services that all enable people to function off the main chain, and the main chain is only used for transferring value between these services. Maybe that is enough to protect the network, maybe not.

Federated pegs and side chains could actually improve this situation, but only if they are structured so that their transactions support the main chain as well. Merged mining is one possible solution, I'm sure there are others. The key is to structure them as child chains, not side chains. Essentially bitcoin needs to maintain its self-contained structure with no external dependencies, child chains that are dependent on the main chain and also contribute their economic value to the main chain (through merged mining) do that.

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized
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February 05, 2015, 11:39:17 PM
 #21033


The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.



it's about sending a message.

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February 06, 2015, 01:11:14 AM
 #21034

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.
2) in concept they are dependent children but even you have illustrated how the family tree can be severed, and with enough economic energy they could grow up and eclipse Bitcoin in value.
3) no evidence to support this false statement, in fact miners don't care about the blockchain size, there only related concern is how fast blocks propagate. Nodes on the other hand may have a legitimate concern but they don't have to be miners and there contribution is born of there own expense and benefits the network as a whole, it is regulated by the Bitcoin Incentive structure there contribution needs to be motivated by the success of the network as a whole.

Blockstream proposed soft fork is wrestling power away form the nodes who govern the protocol into the hands of the miners, and central planers or those who seek to control them.  
 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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February 06, 2015, 02:15:39 AM
 #21035


The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.



it's about sending a message.


I would love to see all of satoshi's coins burned to an unspendable output in a single transaction. It'd be an incredible statement. ...though the market would insta dump for a minute or two when BDD shows a spike to ~2,000,000,000. Smiley

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: https://onchainfx.com
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February 06, 2015, 03:17:51 AM
 #21036


The one thing we know about Satoshi at this point is he wasn't in this to make a fast buck or gain personal glory. He seems to have genuinely been interested in establishing an automated rules based system and then to step out of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years his initial mining coins are still sitting untouched.



it's about sending a message.

Are you saying that the Joker was good? Or that we are evil?

Or are you simply saying its time to burn the system down.
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February 06, 2015, 03:28:51 AM
 #21037

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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February 06, 2015, 04:00:22 AM
 #21038

1. Bitcoins are only created on main chain (bitcoin blockchain)
2. Side chains are child chains.
3. The smaller bitcoin blockchain is (smaller block) the more miners will mine it and MC will be more decentralized

1) that's not the concern, you can earn a Bitcoin equivalent on the protocol level by mining a SideChain, that's the issue.

absolutely false
How so?

What mechanism would SC use to secure there chain?

Would transaction fees not be an option?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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February 06, 2015, 04:08:52 AM
 #21039

D&T with a treatise on why the blocksize must be raised: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0

Hopefully between that and https://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2015/01/21/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-1-scarcity/ this stupid argument is over.

Great job. Here's the Spanish version: http://elbitcoin.org/bloques-el-tamano-si-importa/

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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February 06, 2015, 12:59:05 PM
Last edit: February 06, 2015, 01:13:05 PM by Erdogan
 #21040

Low oil prices, or deflation generally, explained with the age of the capital.
(The time from investment to finished consumer goods)

All investment comes from savings, that is the consumer consumes less than the producer produces, (and the consumer and the producer is really the same person).

We have short time investments, like the chairs in the hairdressers saloon, or the food in the restaurant, or the wares in a sport shop. The investment returns in a short time.

Then we have the long time investments. The oil that we consume now, comes from platforms and wells that were made dozens of years ago. The same goes for hydro power and iron ore mines. The oil wells we invest in now, will give us oil to consume in twenty years.

In between are investments of varying time to consumable products.

The price signals govern what the capitalists invest in. For long time capital investments, it was oil and iron. What is invested now, likewise is governed by the price signals. Some think that electric cars, and self driving cars are the thing of the future, therefore the megafactory.

There is a balance between saving and the different categories of investments. If the consumers save more, in aggregate, than they used to, more capital is available, bidding down the interest (and bidding down current consumer prices). This signals to investors: forget short time investments, go long term!

Opposite, if consumers save less, they bid up current consumer goods and less capital is available. Both signals to the investor: Forget long term, invest in goods and services for the immediate future. And the balance is restored.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED?

Central banks, not the savers, made money available, bidding down the interest rate. Since the financial crisis, but really, long before that, all the way back to the eighties.

This signalled to investors: Go long term! AND to the consumers: Consume now!
This is the reason for the epic imbalance in the capital structure. We have had bidding up of consumer goods and at the same time heavy investing in long term investments. Now, after these investments begin to materialize into consumer goods, we have exhausted consumers (lending), and a surplus of goods from long time investments (oil, iron, buildings, infrastructure). Too many oil wells, mines, railways, car factories hotels, offices and houses. (If you haven't seen surplus in all that, you will soon). Errors in deployment of scarce capital means lower productivity and lower standard of living for all. It is a world problem.

The problem will persist as long as the interest rate is manipulated by central banks, and years after.









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