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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3008887 times)
soy
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August 27, 2013, 03:59:19 AM
 #7241

yes IF the miner is designed for it.

What do you mean designed for it?  As far as the miner is concerned it is Ethernet.  Nothing special that it has to be designed for.  The miner has no idea (nor does it care) that downstream packets are traveling over a wireless link, a copper link, a sonar link, a tin can link, or smoke signal link.  It sends Ethernet (100BaseTX) packets and gets back Ethernet packets.  That is the whole point.
Hmm, after a momentary lapse of reason... I think you'r absolutely correct.. If it can navigate to the web on an RJ45 connection, it shouldn't care if there is a wireless connection downstream or not.
So, with that in mind, I think we'll need a wifi router on each side? The cable/internet provider gives you one with the service, which doesnt care what wifi device is connecting, but in our case, it will be another wifi router, hardwired to the miner, instead of a dongle or built in wifi...  
Am I on the same page now?

Cable provider gives a docsis modem.  Routers are privately purchased and/or from Vonage and are downstream of the docsis modem.  Routers don't always have 802.11 but might.  Routers have subnets, switches are modern versions of hubs but don't allow packet collisions.  Switches don't have upstream/downstream ports, any will do.  A typical home router will have one upstream port and one downstream port but that downstream port is internal and presents as a multi-port switch.  A router with 802.11 will have the multi-port downstream switches (RJ-45 connections) as well as the wireless on that downstream port.  One typically can't take two wireless routers and get them to "speak" to one another via wireless (without hacking the board firmware I suppose).  The AP router that the link in the earlier message went to apparently can.  So, if the device wakes up to DHCP to the AP which then gets an address assigned by the other wireless router then one can ssh, telnet or https in.  If it had a mini-pci port, one could fire it up with a Broadcom wireless modem in the mini-pci port like one finds internal on a laptop but allowing it to connect to the internet via RJ-45 cat5 cable; then ssh in, reconfigure and restart the networking so it addresses the Broadcom wireless modem one added, then unplug the RJ-45 cable and it would be safe from lightening to cable and doing all its communication via wireless.



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August 27, 2013, 04:03:33 AM
 #7242

Time for worry worts to re-check there ROI calculators for the price of BITCOIN has jumped to $126 on mt. gox
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August 27, 2013, 04:14:12 AM
 #7243

Time for worry worts to re-check there ROI calculators for the price of BITCOIN has jumped to $126 on mt. gox


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August 27, 2013, 04:17:17 AM
 #7244

If you want the best surge protector buy one of these.
If lightning strikes and the full power of it goes towards the surge protector.. nothing will save things but
it has been documented to stop the surge when the building has been hit and only a fraction of the voltage
hits it.

http://www.surgex.com/whyuse.html

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August 27, 2013, 04:18:37 AM
 #7245

an excellent reason to use wifi indeed, would stop a cablemodem, or dsl modem spike in its tracks.... but if I'm not mistaken, most wifi routers are already pre-configured as you say, with up-link on the RJ-45 side & down-link on the wi-fi side... or am I missing something?

Perhaps you are missing a spike on the AC line?

WiFi will not negate the lightning hazard thru the AC.

A smart miner will have a surge protector AT the miner.
Surge protectors with telco, coax, and ethernet ports are common.
A UPS would be even better so you can mine thru brown/black outs.
You would need a very big UPS to mine for more than a few minutes during a blackout though.

Everything in the chain needs lightning/surge protection!
Miners will come to a screeching halt if your upstream equipment goes poof.

Even though I posted a link to a WiFi solution I do not advocate WiFi for mining.
There are security/reliability issues.


A spike on the AC line could damage or destroy the power supply to the miner and the power supply to the bridge but is less likely to destroy the miner if it does not have a Cat5 ethernet connection.

The problem I described earlier, the grounds cut on the roadside telephone poles, increase the chances of a high potential riding in on cable, destroying the TV and anything on an ethernet from the cable modem via energy finding its way to ground through the wall 120vac.

Surge protection is fine.  I agree.

The security issue is an element, true.  So is the slower connect rate.  However the time lost to a machine being down that costs thousands of dollars, is an issue.  Having seen melted copper of an RJ-45 connection personally, the loss of a KNC miner to lightening is worrisome.  I don't own a $2000 TV but if I did I think I'd look into only using something like WDTV via wifi and not having the cable to the box.  The greater threat is the potential between the cable and the AC power in neutral in the event of a lightening strike.  At least that's what I gather from having autopsied a lightening fried laptop.



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August 27, 2013, 04:19:34 AM
 #7246

Time for worry worts to re-check there ROI calculators for the price of BITCOIN has jumped to $126 on mt. gox

mtgox price of bitcoin is not reality due to not being a true 2 way market. People are trying to get their
money out of gox and failing so they have to buy bitcoin and transfer it out. Then sell for fiat.

so feel free to send 100 BTC to gox and sell it. good luck getting your USD into a bank account. it could
take months or never.

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August 27, 2013, 04:23:23 AM
 #7247

an excellent reason to use wifi indeed, would stop a cablemodem, or dsl modem spike in its tracks.... but if I'm not mistaken, most wifi routers are already pre-configured as you say, with up-link on the RJ-45 side & down-link on the wi-fi side... or am I missing something?


Perhaps you are missing a spike on the AC line?

WiFi will not negate the lightning hazard thru the AC.

A smart miner will have a surge protector AT the miner.
Surge protectors with telco, coax, and ethernet ports are common.
A UPS would be even better so you can mine thru brown/black outs.
You would need a very big UPS to mine for more than a few minutes during a blackout though.

Everything in the chain needs lightning/surge protection!
Miners will come to a screeching halt if your upstream equipment goes poof.

Even though I posted a link to a WiFi solution I do not advocate WiFi for mining.
There are security/reliability issues.

The origonal conversation stemmed from different utility companies sharing/not sharing grounds, so if your cable internet isn't sharing pole grounds on the way to your home, and gets hit by lightning instead of the POWER line, which IS grounded on every pole, it would indeed lessen the risk of lightning strike spike from the internet line, stopping at the wifi, instead of in your miner.

Since they travel feet apart on the poles, when lightening strikes I would bet it bounces between one and the other or stays on both.  That kind of argument is like the speed of light argument of a ball being bounced on a flatcar going the speed of light - the ball bouncing would have to go faster than light as it isn't traveling in a straight line.  The whole idea is a farce.  But yes, I'm glad you agree with me.  thanks.



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sbfree
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August 27, 2013, 04:44:47 AM
 #7248

Time for worry worts to re-check there ROI calculators for the price of BITCOIN has jumped to $126 on mt. gox

mtgox price of bitcoin is not reality due to not being a true 2 way market. People are trying to get their
money out of gox and failing so they have to buy bitcoin and transfer it out. Then sell for fiat.

so feel free to send 100 BTC to gox and sell it. good luck getting your USD into a bank account. it could
take months or never.

OK then, now $115 on BitStamp....not saying mt. gox is not the defacto market....just showing that price is "jumping" up, albeit a small jump.
Phoenix1969
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August 27, 2013, 04:49:01 AM
 #7249

an excellent reason to use wifi indeed, would stop a cablemodem, or dsl modem spike in its tracks.... but if I'm not mistaken, most wifi routers are already pre-configured as you say, with up-link on the RJ-45 side & down-link on the wi-fi side... or am I missing something?


Perhaps you are missing a spike on the AC line?

WiFi will not negate the lightning hazard thru the AC.

A smart miner will have a surge protector AT the miner.
Surge protectors with telco, coax, and ethernet ports are common.
A UPS would be even better so you can mine thru brown/black outs.
You would need a very big UPS to mine for more than a few minutes during a blackout though.

Everything in the chain needs lightning/surge protection!
Miners will come to a screeching halt if your upstream equipment goes poof.

Even though I posted a link to a WiFi solution I do not advocate WiFi for mining.
There are security/reliability issues.

The origonal conversation stemmed from different utility companies sharing/not sharing grounds, so if your cable internet isn't sharing pole grounds on the way to your home, and gets hit by lightning instead of the POWER line, which IS grounded on every pole, it would indeed lessen the risk of lightning strike spike from the internet line, stopping at the wifi, instead of in your miner.

Since they travel feet apart on the poles, when lightening strikes I would bet it bounces between one and the other or stays on both.  That kind of argument is like the speed of light argument of a ball being bounced on a flatcar going the speed of light - the ball bouncing would have to go faster than light as it isn't traveling in a straight line.  The whole idea is a farce.  But yes, I'm glad you agree with me.  thanks.
The point was the electrical lines would have grounds at every pole, but a utility line would not. Sorry if I didn't explain it well, I'm running around doing other things...   Wink
BTW, I'm also not an advocate of wireless mining, just looking at options category.
My actual tentative plan is the locally offered Generic 49.99 7Mb/s Dsl buisness connection, connecting the miners via the RJ45 connection on the Ethernet router provided by the service provider, but to get multiple machines on it, I plan on a simple miner, to ethernt hub, to router setup, and still be able to access the system via wifi laptop when I'm there (The service provider confirmed their "free wi-fi router" would be capable of connecting to a hub via RJ45 with multiple machines on it)


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sbfree
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August 27, 2013, 05:31:08 AM
 #7250

bitcoin just crossed $130 on mt. gox.....come on KNC!
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August 27, 2013, 05:32:46 AM
 #7251

bitcoin just crossed $130 on mt. gox.....come on KNC!

High of $140 AUD, I'm hearing you, hurry up KnC!

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August 27, 2013, 05:34:52 AM
 #7252

time to put some more miners to work while I wait for my KNC Dream Machine....
jmevz
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August 27, 2013, 05:36:06 AM
 #7253

time to put some more miners to work while I wait for my KNC Dream Machine....

I don't have any current miners Sad

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August 27, 2013, 05:36:48 AM
 #7254

You don't know that, you have no idea what the BTC price will be at the end of September, nobody does.
The BTC price doesn't matter very much. It only affects the price of electricity in Bitcoins. Otherwise, everything else stays the same. You do the ROI calculation in Bitcoins you compare buying a miner to buying Bitcoins directly.

Only if you want to distort the calculation, KCNminer price their products in $USD not BTC therefore the ROI must also be calculated in USD.
KNCminder's choice of pricing models doesn't dictate my ROI calculations. What dictates my ROI calculations is what else I could do with the money, which is buy Bitcoins. Any idiot can buy Bitcoins -- if buying a miner is worse than buying Bitcoins, then only an idiot would buy a miner. If it's better than buying Bitcoins, then people who would otherwise buy Bitcoins should consider buying miners. From a realistic standpoint, your choices are to buy a miner, buy Bitcoins, or do something else.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
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the-skeptic
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August 27, 2013, 05:45:03 AM
 #7255

Ok, newbie here. I have a Jupiter and a Saturn on order, with non specific shipping dates. I am hoping that KNC clarifies or changes their policy regarding November price drops. Are these prices good for everyone or only customers like myself that have tied up over $10000 (some people have given far more than that) in capital for several months all in good faith?  I believe they need to set a moratorium on all shipping for a set period of time before they ship the reduced price units, or offer the reduced price rigs to pre-sale buyers at an earlier date. This would prevent the guy who gets the last $8000 Jupiter from getting steamrolled by the guy with a $5000 rig that is only a few days younger.

In reality, KNC's biggest customers are going to be us, those who make the biggest returns the earliest with their 1st gen rigs. We are the most likely to re-invest our mined BTC into more hardware. They need to make sure they treat us right.

Right now people are laughing at Cointerra for offering a 2Ths machine for $15750. Honestly, if my 600 Ghs has mined anywhere close to that by early next year, I see spending that kind of money on more hashing power as viable. The roughly $11200 I have tied up now is a long term investment. If I were in this for the quick buck, I'd have invested in something else, but instead I plan on re-investing in my infrastructure, and hopefully in the future the BTC mining income will be steady and predictable as the difficulty skyrockets then levels off.

The way I see it, as difficulty approaches the 1.5 - 2 Billion mark,  it will become very difficult to enter the market as a miner or as a hardware vendor. It's always going to cost several million dollars to develop an ASIC, but the BTC pie is finite and new miners won't be able to justify spending $thousands on a machine that might not pay for itself for several years. That means the pool of possible customers will shrink as mining becomes less profitable. Less customers means higher priced hardware and the guarantee of more dreaded pre-sales.

At 2 billion difficulty 2Ths mines about 14Btc a month. By today's standard, that 2Ths of mining power should only cost 20btc. Not gonna happen. Atleast not in the arguable future. I see the playing field becoming dominated by large ASIC farms populated by 2 or 3 major manufacturers. People expecting to turn on a magic money machine and start collecting a paycheck are delusional. Mining is going to become an arms race, and anyone who isn't dumping the vast majority of their BTC back into hardware until difficulty plateaus is going to lose out in the end, or have a very short run of profitability.

Alright that was more of a Unabomber manifesto than a proper first post, but I have been thinking of this since I heard about the November price drop. Anyone have any clue what the second gen KNC machines are going to be like? Prices, performance? I would rather stay with KNC, but if I have the money to spend and a different manufacturer is offering a better deal (and actually delivering product during December, January and February) I might have to change allegiances.

Seriously, I don't want to have to deal with stuff like Bitfury, where everything is cobbled together, held together with fishing line and drinking straws,  and programmed by my old Gameboy.
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August 27, 2013, 05:51:38 AM
 #7256

I took the above KNC quote to mean they don't plan on releasing product during Dec/Jan/Feb to help keep the skyrocketing hashrate down and thereby help customer's ROI UNLESS their competitors release large quantities during those months. Which is almost guaranteed to happen. Am I off base?
That's not my read, no. Under no circumstance will they be selling products in dec/jan/feb.

Haha! What part of "IF" in the following sentence you don't understand?

"We would like to state that ****IF***** any of our competitors continues to add large amounts of hashing power to the network during December, January or February. We will continue to release our devices as competitively priced as we can to protect our customers share of the network.ThanksKnCMiner Team "

So they WILL if competitors add large amounts of hashing power in those months. Nothing to debate.
A. They don't have full command of English so you have to do a bit of interpretation.
B. The statement isn't that clear in the first place.

It's obvious given the full context of all the communication KNC has given us so far that they intend not to ship product in dec/jan/fed and the statement that if competitors ship new products is intended to be connected to the price of their Nov products and has nothing to do with shipping products after in that three month period.

Shipping then doesn't help anyone.

And they plan to use that time to build their gen 2 device for shipping in march.

So, if competitors ship tons of hardware, they'll simply lower the price of their miner in Nov and possibly even Oct so that you'll be able to ROI. It has literally nothing to do with whether they'll ship product in Dec-feb.

Trust me, this is the correct understanding. Don't even take my word for it, just wait and watch it happen.

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 27, 2013, 05:57:40 AM
 #7257

 
Ok, newbie here. I have a Jupiter and a Saturn on order, with non specific shipping dates. I am hoping that KNC clarifies or changes their policy regarding November price drops. Are these prices good for everyone or only customers like myself that have tied up over $10000 (some people have given far more than that) in capital for several months all in good faith?  I believe they need to set a moratorium on all shipping for a set period of time before they ship the reduced price units, or offer the reduced price rigs to pre-sale buyers at an earlier date. This would prevent the guy who gets the last $8000 Jupiter from getting steamrolled by the guy with a $5000 rig that is only a few days younger.

In reality, KNC's biggest customers are going to be us, those who make the biggest returns the earliest with their 1st gen rigs. We are the most likely to re-invest our mined BTC into more hardware. They need to make sure they treat us right.

Right now people are laughing at Cointerra for offering a 2Ths machine for $15750. Honestly, if my 600 Ghs has mined anywhere close to that by early next year, I see spending that kind of money on more hashing power as viable. The roughly $11200 I have tied up now is a long term investment. If I were in this for the quick buck, I'd have invested in something else, but instead I plan on re-investing in my infrastructure, and hopefully in the future the BTC mining income will be steady and predictable as the difficulty skyrockets then levels off.

The way I see it, as difficulty approaches the 1.5 - 2 Billion mark,  it will become very difficult to enter the market as a miner or as a hardware vendor. It's always going to cost several million dollars to develop an ASIC, but the BTC pie is finite and new miners won't be able to justify spending $thousands on a machine that might not pay for itself for several years. That means the pool of possible customers will shrink as mining becomes less profitable. Less customers means higher priced hardware and the guarantee of more dreaded pre-sales.

At 2 billion difficulty 2Ths mines about 14Btc a month. By today's standard, that 2Ths of mining power should only cost 20btc. Not gonna happen. Atleast not in the arguable future. I see the playing field becoming dominated by large ASIC farms populated by 2 or 3 major manufacturers. People expecting to turn on a magic money machine and start collecting a paycheck are delusional. Mining is going to become an arms race, and anyone who isn't dumping the vast majority of their BTC back into hardware until difficulty plateaus is going to lose out in the end, or have a very short run of profitability.

Alright that was more of a Unabomber manifesto than a proper first post, but I have been thinking of this since I heard about the November price drop. Anyone have any clue what the second gen KNC machines are going to be like? Prices, performance? I would rather stay with KNC, but if I have the money to spend and a different manufacturer is offering a better deal (and actually delivering product during December, January and February) I might have to change allegiances.

Seriously, I don't want to have to deal with stuff like Bitfury, where everything is cobbled together, held together with fishing line and drinking straws,  and programmed by my old Gameboy.
I'd say a simple coupon code for say, a 10% additional discount for prior customers would be nice...
who knows on Gen 2, I'm betting Marcus & gang have a few tricks left in the bag yet tho


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Anenome5
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August 27, 2013, 06:11:50 AM
 #7258

Couple big 'yes' bets after the latest interview with Sam Smiley

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/

Anyone else want to bet 'no' some more and donate to the rest of us?

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 27, 2013, 06:16:51 AM
 #7259

What they have said is that they want to protect their customers' investment, correct? The way I see it, lowering their prices is protecting their market share, not protecting the customers who put out a ton of money ahead of time, gambling that KNC would perform on time. Why should I care if some guy who waited to see if they "actually ship" ROIs, when I have had my money tied up for 2 months already? I agree that possibily a tiered discount structure for pre-order customers might work. Say they give you a 10% discount for every Jupiter you ordered plus 5% for each mercury and saturn. Sort of like their vendor program. For the saturn and jupiter I have on order, I would get an additional 15% off the November pricing. That would be protecting "customers", not just cultivating new ones.

I hammered them with emails for a while and then backed off, so I didn't look like a pest, but this had a bad smell to me. I will start pestering them again.
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August 27, 2013, 06:21:59 AM
 #7260

You don't know that, you have no idea what the BTC price will be at the end of September, nobody does.
The BTC price doesn't matter very much. It only affects the price of electricity in Bitcoins. Otherwise, everything else stays the same. You do the ROI calculation in Bitcoins you compare buying a miner to buying Bitcoins directly.

Only if you want to distort the calculation, KCNminer price their products in $USD not BTC therefore the ROI must also be calculated in USD.
Not so. You translate the cost of your miner in USD to what it would've cost you to buy the same BTC amount the day you paid for it. When I bought my jupiter the price of BTC was $130, so I paid a lot less than some of you because the miner is priced in dollars, and that wednesday the price crashed from 130 to <$100. Faster ROI for me.

You actually should be viewing all profit and ROI in BTC terms to know if you would've been better off just holding BTC. So far, the numbers say that isn't true. You're making a BTC profit owning a Jupiter, and it's not yet quite tight.

All these other manufacturers, however, are in for a rude awakening after KNC ships.

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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