Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[klee]

Miner protection offered by KnC would be a huge plus. I bet all you posting against HF's one would applaud the exactly same proposal from KnC lol

Plus if as a customer you really need to be sure the company you bet does the best it can to deliver you should pray HF delivers late October so KnC is more pressed to deliver ASAP. But your greed...

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[Ytterbium]

KNC shills = OC + 12mo warranty  + no thermal control = trouble

What are you talking about?  No one is talking about overclocking these things and keeping the warranty. KnC has basically said they don't support it.

And anyway, HashFast has only a ten day warranty, unless they changed already (they were talking about taking it up to 30 days)

There's also no evidence that it doesn't at least have a temperature sensor.  That's a pretty obvious thing to include, I would assume it's in there and that the software can be coded to cut power or slow the chip down if it gets to hot.

[Xenoph0bia]

^^ all time troll feeder ^^

Meh, he came looking for it, and it's clear they don't want a third party holding them accountable to any dates. They removed any chance of being liable for their customers having any real protection on purpose.

They won't be ready in October, that's a pipe dream... they didn't even tape out yet. By the time they ship their miners, KNC should have shipped their September and October orders. It is fairly probable that they will eventually deliver, but by then KNC should have cheaper hardware and the proud owners of BabyJets will probably feel that their units are more Baby than Jets .

It is supported by BFL experience, but maybe KNC is different

[Ytterbium]

Where is the miner protection program?

If Hashfast could produce the product and ship as suggested in the example on their page by the 23rd October 2013, they would know for sure by now, baring complications once chips are in hand, whether they could be made.
...

It's very unlikely that October 20-30th is achievable, and Hashfast would already know now for sure if it is, otherwise using an 'anticipated delivery of 20th-30th October', knowing full well you can't deliver by then, would be incredibly deceitful, especially if one raises funds under the guise it's almost certainly achievable.

I wonder if they're planning on doing what BFL is openly saying they'll do with the Monarch: Get a few sample from a 'bullet run', and ship those in October, then ship the rest when a larger normal-speed wafer run is completed a few months later.

[jelin1984]

I think that  bitcoin mining is more business from the factory's knc Avalon bfl labs So that they do.begging take money from customers from pre order programm because does not have enough money to make chips and then have the delay delay delay .

[Xialla]

Where is the miner protection program?

omfg really? because everybody knows, that you are paid shill representing other hw manufacturer on this board, can't believe, that you are so stupid to post questions like this one. please, stop it.

[klee]

Where is the miner protection program?

omfg really? because everybody knows, that you are paid shill representing other hw manufacturer on this board, can't believe, that you are so stupid to post questions like this one. please, stop it.

Try to focus on the question and not on the interests of you and cypher's...
Cheers.

[Ytterbium]

Where is the miner protection program?

omfg really? because everybody knows, that you are paid shill representing other hw manufacturer on this board, can't believe, that you are so stupid to post questions like this one. please, stop it.

Try to focus on the question and not on the interests of you and cypher's...
Cheers.

What question?  "Where is the miner protection plan?"  There is no miner protection plan.  It's a b.s. trolling question he already knows the answer too. 

He's not asking because he wants to know, he's asking to try to make KnC look bad - or like there are things they haven't worked out yet.

If you're not happy with the hashrate before your box is delivered you can cancel your order.

[jmevz]

Where is the miner protection program?

omfg really? because everybody knows, that you are paid shill representing other hw manufacturer on this board, can't believe, that you are so stupid to post questions like this one. please, stop it.

Try to focus on the question and not on the interests of you and cypher's...
Cheers.

What question?  "Where is the miner protection plan?"  There is no miner protection plan.  It's a b.s. trolling question he already knows the answer too. 

He's not asking because he wants to know, he's asking to try to make KnC look bad - or like there are things they haven't worked out yet.

If you're not happy with the hashrate before your box is delivered you can cancel your order.

What exactly is their refund policy? Going to have a read...

[jlsminingcorp]

They won't be ready in October, that's a pipe dream... they didn't even tape out yet. By the time they ship their miners, KNC should have shipped their September and October orders. It is fairly probable that they will eventually deliver, but by then KNC should have cheaper hardware and the proud owners of BabyJets will probably feel that their units are more Baby than Jets .

Sorry, but I just can't help thinking of nappy (diaper for our US cousins) changes when I hear the name BabyJet. I'm sure that the image that I have in my mind when I think of a "baby jet" is not what HashFash had in mind when naming their miner - unless it's all a big joke and they are laughing at us!

[adworker]

What exactly is their refund policy? Going to have a read...

No refunds if they delliver in promised time.

Seems fair to me.

[Bitcoinorama]

What exactly is their refund policy? Going to have a read...

No refunds if they delliver in promised time.

Seems fair to me.

Let's be clear as to whose refund.

KnC has one. They aim to deliver on time.

Hashfast is refusing one. To compensate they offer a 'miner protection program' where upon you are given another chip and a short period to scramble to get it made into something usable as compensation for any delays, because they will be unable to honour refunds.

Question is, does Hashfast already know if they will be late or not? Of course they do, they know if TSMC has any rocket runs available within only two months, as does TSMC. They've already made their customer sign NDAs, so they could always choose to be straight up with those customers if they wanted to. Instead they push a marketing gimmick. Oldest trick in the book, favoured by magicians and salesmen everywhere;

'The art of misdirection', don't look at what I'm doing with this hand, look at his one instead;

- No third party protected consumer protection via secured payment methods, Paypal's 45 day refund would take you now to October, in which Hashfast could guarantee you know for sure whether they will deliver on time, Hashfast know this, so they have refused Paypal.

- Refusing all refunds until January with no third party covering, means minimal accountability by Hashfast and monies almost certainly spent 3 months after 'anticipated delivery'.

- Altering the option for refund to now only two weeks on January in their terms, after customers have already purchased.

- Altering wording in their sales garb from expected delivery 20th-30th Oct, to 'anticipated delivery 20th-30th Oct', after customers have already purchased.

- Altering warranty after customers have already purchased. Bearing in mind they are not operating with margins upon margins themselves, but focusing on running their chip extremely hot as stock and requiring extreme cooling as standard to cope. Liquid cooling is not embraced by most data-centres, there is nothing stopping you from doing the same to a KnC chip, or an Avalon, or a BFL, if you are happy to waive warranty, which is why Hashfast want to limit their own warranty from the get go.

- Altering refund and warranty details after customer have already purchased and choosing not to inform them of any alterations, only vigilant members of this forum spotted the changes. They also did this with their privacy policy, although they stated they had made a mistake there, yet this appears to be a continued tactic to alter terms once one party has agreed.

- There is no need for Miner Protection Plans if they deliver on time, and they already know if they can, or not. I think most, if not all would rather they drop their price significantly if they deliver excessively late, as opposed to being given a raw chip they them have to suddenly assemble at further cost and inconvenience.

All signs point to Hashfast's lack of confidence in (now anticipated) delivery date. No MPP will protect you from potential profits lost from a significant delay on a competitor whose had weeks head start with the same 28nm tech. Logical.

[klee]

Where is the miner protection program?

omfg really? because everybody knows, that you are paid shill representing other hw manufacturer on this board, can't believe, that you are so stupid to post questions like this one. please, stop it.

Try to focus on the question and not on the interests of you and cypher's...
Cheers.

What question?  "Where is the miner protection plan?"  There is no miner protection plan.  It's a b.s. trolling question he already knows the answer too. 

He's not asking because he wants to know, he's asking to try to make KnC look bad - or like there are things they haven't worked out yet.

If you're not happy with the hashrate before your box is delivered you can cancel your order.

If KnC offers you the chance for more chips, provided they delivered on time but unfortunately difficulty skyrocketed so much you won't ROI, you don't want them?!?
I would like to get them! Better than nothing.

As a customer the best deal from me would be credit card refund option + MPP!

[klee]

What exactly is their refund policy? Going to have a read...

No refunds if they delliver in promised time.

Seems fair to me.

Let's be clear as to whose refund.

KnC has one. They aim to deliver on time.

Hashfast is refusing one. To compensate they offer a 'miner protection program' where upon you are given another chip and a short period to scramble to get it made into something usable as compensation for any delays, because they will be unable to honour refunds.

Question is, does Hashfast already know if they will be late or not? Of course they do, they know if TSMC has any rocket runs available within only two months, as does TSMC. They've already made their customer sign NDAs, so they could always choose to be straight up with those customers if they wanted to. Instead they push a marketing gimmick. Oldest trick in the book, favoured by magicians and salesmen everywhere;

'The art of misdirection', don't look at what I'm doing with this hand, look at his one instead;

- No third party protected consumer protection via secured payment methods, Paypal's 45 day refund would take you now to October, in which Hashfast could guarantee you know for sure whether they will deliver on time, Hashfast know this, so they have refused Paypal.

- Refusing all refunds until January with no third party covering, means minimal accountability by Hashfast and monies almost certainly spent 3 months after 'anticipated delivery'.

- Altering the option for refund to now only two weeks on January in their terms, after customers have already purchased.

- Altering wording in their sales garb from expected delivery 20th-30th Oct, to 'anticipated delivery 20th-30th Oct', after customers have already purchased.

- Altering warranty after customers have already purchased. Bearing in mind they are not operating with margins upon margins themselves, but focusing on running their chip extremely hot as stock and requiring extreme cooling as standard to cope. Liquid cooling is not embraced by most data-centres, there is nothing stopping you from doing the same to a KnC chip, or an Avalon, or a BFL, if you are happy to waive warranty, which is why Hashfast want to limit their own warranty from the get go.

- Altering refund and warranty details after customer have already purchased and choosing not to inform them of any alterations, only vigilant members of this forum spotted the changes. They also did this with their privacy policy, although they stated they had made a mistake there, yet this appears to be a continued tactic to alter terms once one party has agreed.

- There is no need for Miner Protection Plans if they deliver on time, and they already know if they can, or not. I think most, if not all would rather they drop their price significantly if they deliver excessively late, as opposed to being given a raw chip they them have to suddenly assemble at further cost and inconvenience.

Logical.

Is their MPP valid only if they won't deliver on time?

[plasmoske]

I would love to type up a big post explaining HF's MPP but in bed now and sleeping so can't. Plus anyway, this is a KNC thread not HF. There's actually a HF MPP thread where everyone here who's interested can go there to discuss.

 

[Ytterbium]

If KnC offers you the chance for more chips, provided they delivered on time but unfortunately difficulty skyrocketed so much you won't ROI, you don't want them?!?
I would like to get them! Better than nothing.

What if the difficulty doesn't go up that much and I still make a profit.  Wouldn't you still want free chips?  Obviously, people like free chips. So, a deal where you buy the unit and you get guaranteed free chips within X amount of time would be even better then an MPP.

However, if you go with KnC you'll likely get your unit much sooner and you can ask for a refund if the difficulty looks like it's going up too much. That's much better then an MPP.

Also, the IceDRILL thing doesn't get the MPP.  Apparently they were going to charge money for it originally, and would have with icedrill:

Will IceDrill be covered under the miner protection program that was recently announced?

Sorry, needed a bit of time to compare our notes from the offering then with the current public (Baby Jet) MPP.

1. The premium on the "insurance" was substantial, and was only presented as an option at the highest level of bulk buy, which was well beyond what we calculated the IPO fundraising could achieve in the current competitive, highly-saturated mining investment market.
2. While it makes sense for a smaller mining operation to "buy into" the MPP deal by ordering from batch 1, we believe our scale implementation will mitigate the risk of not achieving an acceptable ROI better. These risk mitigation factors include:
   a) Economy of scale build-out: ensuring a lower bottom line and thus extended profitably.
   b) The MPP is a once-off deal. Our costs see a relative decrease as we add more future capacity according to the 25% re-investment clause. IOW We'd much rather spend the premium that would otherwise go toward insurance on buying extra hashing power for lower prices in the future. Remember, a 25% reinvestment will probably result in more than 25% capacity increase (otherwise we probably won't do it).

A lesser issue:
Clause 9 of the MPP offered to us: Any capacity due will be sent via a common shipper (Fedex, UPS or similar), as chips only, and to the same address as the original machines were sent. In the absence of an open reference design for the PCB, taking receipt of only the chips at our scale didn't really make sense. This is not to say that the reference design won't be made public in the 3 months leading up to the MPP trigger event, just that it was an unquantifiable unknown at the time. That said, the Baby Jet MPP offering alludes to the probability that Hashfast will open-source their PCB design or definitely make it possible to license it out to other manufacturers, which is great.

Reading the final version which appeared @ hashfast.com a few hours ago I can say that the MPP has evolved really well from the community feedback Hashfast has received in the last few weeks. It's a great addition to the retail Baby Jet 1st batch offering. It pretty much cancels delivery date risk and is a huge huge deal. It's refreshing to see an ASIC company present something like this to sweeten the pre-order deal, listen to community feedback and adjust accordingly. It means they're doing their homework and we applaud them for it.

[eve]

By next week is the End of August 2013, they supposed to have the chips produced by next week, if No They Will be Delay !! and we need to know where the heck is the Chips.

Should we All Cancel our Orders and get our Refunds?

[timmmers]

By next week is the End of August 2013, they supposed to have the chips produced by next week, if No They Will be Delay !! and we need to know where the heck is the Chips.

Should we All Cancel our Orders and get our Refunds?

What? They said they will deliver in September, that's a month , 4 weeks. So five weeks give or take a day from now. If you missed the Sept delivery orders it's October.
No-one from KnC said a thing about chips in the 1st week of Sept. but people assume things based on delivery times.

Feel free to cancel your order if you need someone's permission to do so or if you're arse is twitching like a rabbit's nose. "We all" ? Some of us knew the risks and accepted them and feel it's acceptable that we're where we are now. We may be wrong for sure, but there's no reason to think that yet.

KnC aren't responsible for the increase in difficulty, nor can they or anyone else control or accurately predict it...why should they have anymore reason to compensate us for that if it hurts us all? They already promised to modify prices quoting the increases as the reason.

I really think a lot of people would be far happier just buying BTC, the days of massive returns are gone now. It's a risky game, too risky for many perhaps.

[btc_uzr]

is this just a funny coincidence?
read first definition...

http://www.webdictionary.co.uk/definition.php?query=Eve

[DPoS]

Why do so many here keep taking the trolls seriously?