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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3045502 times)
KS
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August 23, 2013, 04:04:46 PM
 #6941

While it is true that a B2B contract may not take away all of the consumer protection that would apply to a B2C contract, it does take away considerable portions of it, such as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which do not apply to B2B contracts. The Distance Selling Regulations would also not apply.
And, in general, when interpreting B2B contracts, courts will take the view that each side has received appropriate advice, and negotiated a contract that matches their wishes, while with a standard fixed B2C contract that the consumer does not have the opportunity to negotiate, they will recognise the imbalance of arms, and construe all terms in a way that favours the consumer.

While it is true that a B2B contract may not take away all of the consumer protection that would apply to a B2C contract, it does take away considerable portions of it, such as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which do not apply to B2B contracts. The Distance Selling Regulations would also not apply.
And, in general, when interpreting B2B contracts, courts will take the view that each side has received appropriate advice, and negotiated a contract that matches their wishes, while with a standard fixed B2C contract that the consumer does not have the opportunity to negotiate, they will recognise the imbalance of arms, and construe all terms in a way that favours the consumer.

Thank-you Murray.

Quote
Business to business sales, are consumer rights applicable? (Note: this is UK focused)

In short, yes, unless the company you are dealing with has specifically underwritten terms in their Terms and Conditions negating aspects of your consumer rights. This is known as an exclusion clause, and is yet another reason why Terms and Conditions should always be read and thoroughly discussed in your respective thread.

Quote
How do you know if the contract (business to business) takes away your statutory rights?

If the person who sold you the goods or services has taken away your statutory rights, there should be something in your contract about this. For example, it might say  the seller isn't responsible for goods that are unsatisfactory, don't match their description or aren't fit for purpose. Or it might say that the seller isn't responsible for any loss you've suffered because of their lack of care or skill. This type of content in a contract is called an exclusion clause.


http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm

In particular, sections 10 and 11 of the Distance Selling Regulations, which would otherwise have given an absolute right to cancel, will not apply to a pre-order written as a B2B contract rather than a B2C one. In the particular field of Bitcoin ASIC miner pre-orders, I think that is quite a significant loss!

Edit: If by repeating that quote, you intend to imply that there is no loss of protection, you are simply wrong.

From the Distance Selling Regulations:
Quote
consumer” means any natural person who, in contracts to which these Regulations apply, is acting for purposes which are outside his business;
[...]
Right to cancel
10.—(1) Subject to regulation 13, if within the cancellation period set out in regulations 11 and 12, the consumer gives a notice of cancellation to the supplier, or any other person previously notified by the supplier to the consumer as a person to whom notice of cancellation may be given, the notice of cancellation shall operate to cancel the contract.
(2) Except as otherwise provided by these Regulations, the effect of a notice of cancellation is that the contract shall be treated as if it had not been made.

This simply does not apply to businesses.

Similarly for the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations:
Quote
What terms are not covered?

Most standard terms are covered by the UTCCRs. The exceptions are those:

    that reflect provisions which by law have to be included in contracts
    that have been individually negotiated
    in contracts between businesses
    in contracts between private individuals
    in certain contracts that people do not make as consumers – for example, relating to employment or setting up a business
    in contracts entered into before 1995.

And, from the OFTs guidance on the UTCCR:
Quote
The fact that certain customers – even a majority – are not consumers does not justify exclusion of liability that could affect consumers. However, there is no objection under the Regulations to terms which cannot affect consumers, for example those which exclude liability for business losses, or losses to business customers.



You might want to read the rest/discuss it on the other thread, as it's more general that just KNCMINER, though it specifically applies here too.
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August 23, 2013, 04:10:50 PM
 #6942

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.
I don't have the resources of law enforcement. If I did, I think the process would be trivial.



Nor do they. Maybe in the case of some very large important criminal or terrorist they'd find the money to afford it, but as a routine everyday thing ...they can't afford to chase basic bank accounts and all the other places people hide money never mind bitcoins which they may not even have heard of and probably have very little knowledge of.

Life isn't hollywood full of super cops backed by goth girls who can perform technical miracles in five minutes...it's fat 9 to 5 cops who cant find the hoody who nicked your bike most of the time.




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Syke
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August 23, 2013, 04:16:08 PM
 #6943

Even mining from pools may not be 'clean coins', think about GPUMAX run by our friend Trendon. You can never really tell where all the coins come from.

The only clean coins to be found are those solo mined and that requires ridiculous hash rate for less variance a.k.a. large investment.

Some pools do provide clean coins. I know at least p2pool does, and I'm sure there are some other pools that also mine blocks that pay out directly to the miners. And to keep this on-topic, will KnC's pool give out clean coins?

Buy & Hold
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August 23, 2013, 04:27:58 PM
 #6944

Nor do they. Maybe in the case of some very large important criminal or terrorist they'd find the money to afford it, but as a routine everyday thing ...they can't afford to chase basic bank accounts and all the other places people hide money never mind bitcoins which they may not even have heard of and probably have very little knowledge of.

Life isn't hollywood full of super cops backed by goth girls who can perform technical miracles in five minutes...it's fat 9 to 5 cops who cant find the hoody who nicked your bike most of the time.

But we were discussing money laundering, and the scale that I was talking about was $250000, which I think would maybe be enough to mobilize some significant resources.

My point being, if you are doing something on the scale that you consider it "money laundering", then I think buying mining hardware is not going to help you any.
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August 23, 2013, 04:33:59 PM
 #6945

I think you're wrong, but I hope you're right...it would be a great excuse to interfere massively should something huge come to light. We don't need that.




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.SUPER FAST
].
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CONTRACT

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August 23, 2013, 04:38:11 PM
 #6946

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.
I don't have the resources of law enforcement. If I did, I think the process would be trivial.
Nor do they. Maybe in the case of some very large important criminal or terrorist they'd find the money to afford it, but as a routine everyday thing ...they can't afford to chase basic bank accounts and all the other places people hide money never mind bitcoins which they may not even have heard of and probably have very little knowledge of.

Life isn't hollywood full of super cops backed by goth girls who can perform technical miracles in five minutes...it's fat 9 to 5 cops who cant find the hoody who nicked your bike most of the time.

The problem here is bitcoin's no longer obscure.  
It's been thrust into the spotlight by idiot children picking fights:  "I'm an anarchist/tax dodger/money launderer/drug dealer, come at me, brah!"
Once you've baited that 9-5 cop who can't find ur bike, start watching ur ass, 'cos fat cops do not forgive and do not forget Smiley
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August 23, 2013, 05:22:51 PM
 #6947

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.
I don't have the resources of law enforcement. If I did, I think the process would be trivial.
Nor do they. Maybe in the case of some very large important criminal or terrorist they'd find the money to afford it, but as a routine everyday thing ...they can't afford to chase basic bank accounts and all the other places people hide money never mind bitcoins which they may not even have heard of and probably have very little knowledge of.

Life isn't hollywood full of super cops backed by goth girls who can perform technical miracles in five minutes...it's fat 9 to 5 cops who cant find the hoody who nicked your bike most of the time.

The problem here is bitcoin's no longer obscure.  
It's been thrust into the spotlight by idiot children picking fights:  "I'm an anarchist/tax dodger/money launderer/drug dealer, come at me, brah!"
Once you've baited that 9-5 cop who can't find ur bike, start watching ur ass, 'cos fat cops do not forgive and do not forget Smiley


To be fair it's been thrust into the limelight due to irresponsible banksters and the corrupt European Central Bank stealing from Cypriot citizen's bank accounts, with savvy citizens transferring wealth into BTC as a monetary vehicle to avoid the money grab creating a media furore.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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August 23, 2013, 05:59:28 PM
 #6948

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.
I don't have the resources of law enforcement. If I did, I think the process would be trivial.
Nor do they. Maybe in the case of some very large important criminal or terrorist they'd find the money to afford it, but as a routine everyday thing ...they can't afford to chase basic bank accounts and all the other places people hide money never mind bitcoins which they may not even have heard of and probably have very little knowledge of.

Life isn't hollywood full of super cops backed by goth girls who can perform technical miracles in five minutes...it's fat 9 to 5 cops who cant find the hoody who nicked your bike most of the time.

The problem here is bitcoin's no longer obscure.  
It's been thrust into the spotlight by idiot children picking fights:  "I'm an anarchist/tax dodger/money launderer/drug dealer, come at me, brah!"
Once you've baited that 9-5 cop who can't find ur bike, start watching ur ass, 'cos fat cops do not forgive and do not forget Smiley


To be fair it's been thrust into the limelight due to irresponsible banksters and the corrupt European Central Bank stealing from Cypriot citizen's bank accounts, with savvy citizens transferring wealth into BTC as a monetary vehicle to avoid the money grab creating a media furore.

So the bubble was caused by the people wising up to Cyprus financial crisis?  The fact that the price has more than halved since then should suggest, inversely, that people have regained their faith in fiat?  If you must divine causation from loose correlation, at least be consistent. 

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August 23, 2013, 06:02:08 PM
 #6949

What about this meth dealer buying a shitload of mining rigs, then setting up a lovely cloudhashing sideline? The fees would be clean money from clients. He could also BE his own fake clients or at least mine for himself. He could also set it up somewhere safe from interference in a country where the agencies likely to be on his case have no powers.

As for tracing BTC, go on then..someone tell me how much I have in my wallets or where it/they are? I doubt that will be easy.
I don't have the resources of law enforcement. If I did, I think the process would be trivial.
Nor do they. Maybe in the case of some very large important criminal or terrorist they'd find the money to afford it, but as a routine everyday thing ...they can't afford to chase basic bank accounts and all the other places people hide money never mind bitcoins which they may not even have heard of and probably have very little knowledge of.

Life isn't hollywood full of super cops backed by goth girls who can perform technical miracles in five minutes...it's fat 9 to 5 cops who cant find the hoody who nicked your bike most of the time.

The problem here is bitcoin's no longer obscure.  
It's been thrust into the spotlight by idiot children picking fights:  "I'm an anarchist/tax dodger/money launderer/drug dealer, come at me, brah!"
Once you've baited that 9-5 cop who can't find ur bike, start watching ur ass, 'cos fat cops do not forgive and do not forget Smiley


To be fair it's been thrust into the limelight due to irresponsible banksters and the corrupt European Central Bank stealing from Cypriot citizen's bank accounts, with savvy citizens transferring wealth into BTC as a monetary vehicle to avoid the money grab creating a media furore.

The ECB is not stealing from Cypriot citizens, it's stealing from everyone who has net savings in euros (and from anyone trying to save to buy a home) in favour of the banks. The other theft, the deposit confiscation (also in favour of the banks), was the cypriot government.

Personally I wouldn't know about Bitcoin if it wasn't for my forced awareness of the massive moral deficit in the present monetary system. I do believe there is a correlation but the Cyprus effect is totally overblown.

Guys, please move this conversation to another thread/forum?


 


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August 23, 2013, 06:03:44 PM
 #6950

whoa, lets bring this thread back to KNC stuff
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August 23, 2013, 06:40:03 PM
 #6951

Glad one part of my two answers got some good debate going.

The laundering was a throw in to first point of buying miners with credit cards since bitcoins via cc's is pretty much null.

also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes


~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~Play Boardgames for Bitcoins!!~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~ Something I say help? Donate BTC! 1KN1K1xStzsgfYxdArSX4PEjFfcLEuYhid
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August 23, 2013, 06:59:47 PM
 #6952


also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes


What cash back? What intro's?

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August 23, 2013, 07:10:21 PM
 #6953


also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes


What cash back? What intro's?



From your credit card company with my card I get 1% back on all transactions. 3% on gas.
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August 23, 2013, 07:40:03 PM
 #6954


also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes


What cash back? What intro's?



From your credit card company with my card I get 1% back on all transactions. 3% on gas.

yes and the intro is a year of 0% on all purchases

~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~Play Boardgames for Bitcoins!!~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~ Something I say help? Donate BTC! 1KN1K1xStzsgfYxdArSX4PEjFfcLEuYhid
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August 23, 2013, 09:57:22 PM
 #6955

Glad one part of my two answers got some good debate going.

The laundering was a throw in to first point of buying miners with credit cards since bitcoins via cc's is pretty much null.

also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes



USA based?
DPoS
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August 23, 2013, 10:31:11 PM
 #6956

Glad one part of my two answers got some good debate going.

The laundering was a throw in to first point of buying miners with credit cards since bitcoins via cc's is pretty much null.

also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes



USA based?

yup

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CYPER
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August 23, 2013, 10:35:41 PM
 #6957

Glad one part of my two answers got some good debate going.

The laundering was a throw in to first point of buying miners with credit cards since bitcoins via cc's is pretty much null.

also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes



USA based?

yup

Just curious - I assume you pay VAT. What about any other import duties or taxes?
Basically for a $6999 Jupiter how much will the final costs be including delivery and all taxes + VAT?
Bitcoinorama
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August 23, 2013, 10:46:40 PM
 #6958

Glad one part of my two answers got some good debate going.

The laundering was a throw in to first point of buying miners with credit cards since bitcoins via cc's is pretty much null.

also, with 0% intro's and 1% cash back I already have ~$150 ROI on my two Saturns>Jupiters upgrades   Roll Eyes



USA based?

yup

Just curious - I assume you pay VAT. What about any other import duties or taxes?
Basically for a $6999 Jupiter how much will the final costs be including delivery and all taxes + VAT?


They don't have VAT in the U.S.

They do have a sales tax in most States, although it's not consistent.

That generally bounces between 5% and 10%.

There maybe an import duty of some kind?

According to this, I guess if it's classed as computer hardware, it's duty free, with a $25 merchandising fee;

http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/

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August 23, 2013, 10:48:47 PM
 #6959

I've been told to expect UPS to collect some import duties when they deliver the machines.  Don't know how much....
Bitcoinorama
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August 23, 2013, 10:51:22 PM
 #6960

I've been told to expect UPS to collect some import duties when they deliver the machines.  Don't know how much....

Sorry I edited above, but this may help;

http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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