Coronavirus Outbreak

[franky1]

As for losing a license and what-not, it's much more likely that a doctor or hospital will lose more than just an extra $12,000 per person if the do NOT help perpetuate the fraud that the CDC so desperately wants.

the hospital/doctor does not get an extra $12k
sorry. just no
hospitals get paid by medicare/medicaid for each treatment the patient needs. same as usual

hospitals dont get paid a bonus for switching toetags.

hospitals get paid per treatment. so if someone needs a ventilator. thats standard ventilator charge. if they need an xray. thats a standard xray charge.
its all standard income for the hospital
so for the fourth time today
hospital does not gain. .. only the insurance company behind recoups losses from government

have a nice day and i hope you have now woke up

[SaltySpitoon]

Oh, well you know them! That makes your argument completely not anecdotal and an appeal to authority right? You believe do you? Have you had your eyes welded shut the last 4 years? Have you not seen the insane lengths some of these districts will go to in order to try to fabricate some kind of scandal or disaster to throw at Trump to give themselves a chance in hell at being able to unseat him via hook or crook? Do you think they are above intentionally cratering the economy to depose him and to create the socialist UBI system they have been trying to push for years? I don't.

This isn't about claiming the virus isn't real or that people shouldn't take precautions. I notice any time anyone objects people love to claim that it is either you support all these totalitarian restrictions or you want to "do nothing". This is about these restrictions being used intentionally as a vector to crater the economy to force a very large portion of the US population into dependence on the government. What could go wrong depending on the government to feed and house you right?

Furthermore this IS breaking the supply chain. Do you think all these producers who are shutting down now because of these restrictions are going to be able to open back up? Of course not. You like to imagine that everything important is designated as essential and therefore everything is fine. That is not how it works in reality. Also you have no concept of how delicate the modern "just in time" supply chain is. These interruptions have dealt critical blows to our supply chain infrastructure, and the longer we let it bleed out the more our capacity to recover dwindles.

The results of the loss of this capacity is not just about profit, it is how all of us are fed, housed, and medically cared for. The number of people effected by this illness is a tiny fraction of the death and pain that will result from this loss of production capacity. Regarding these states begging for federal bail outs, just watch. They are using this situation to claim that is why they were in this position, not because of their own horrible mismanagement, but because of the virus. They will extend the lock downs as long as possible to create even more pressure to push federal bailouts. You watch as the cries for this grow louder.

Self centered? You know what is self centered? People like you who want to stay safe at home collecting "free money" while the people who feed you are losing everything because you think those in charge got it all figured out and would never steer us wrong. What does us being not the only nation dealing with this have to do with anything besides a pathetic appeal to emotion on your part? You know what else effects other nations? When food shortages start here in any scale, poor nations have FAMINE. Not shortages, millions die. Make some more appeals to emotion and tell me about being self centered again you twat.

Back to the self centered part, Canada, Italy, Spain, all of these enemy countries are also doing these same measures to prop up the fight in our country correct? It is in Germany's best interest to tank their economy to perpetuate this scam to crater our economy. Whether you are a republican, a democrat, or a lizard person, the effects this is having on the economy is effecting us the same, we're all in this together. Its absolute arrogance to think this is even slightly about the US, its a global problem. I don't think anyone needs to stage some elaborate global coup d'etat  to try to damage the reputation of the man telling us to inject disinfectant, if he gets the vote, he gets the vote. The dependence on the government you speak of is just listening to them saying its not financially worth for us to allow our people to get infected. While it is a crying shame that the meat processing factories that forced their employees to come to work and caused hundreds of millions of dollars of damage were shut down, lucky for us the Cheetos factory is still open after a 1 day shutdown.

The number of people effected by this illness is a tiny fraction of the death and pain that will result from this loss of production capacity so far! We've had 50,000 people die in a month with safety measures in place. Luckily, I know that you aren't a moron and understand how illness is spread, its a lot slower rolling when there are 100 cases versus 1 million cases, so I don't need to press on the point that every bit of data we can scrape together right now is showing the absolute minimum effect we could possibly have from the virus.

Again, as I mentioned all of the things you're talking about have already been weighed in the official government road map. Trying to factor it in twice isn't really helpful, all rocking the boat does at this point is cost us more money and lives from the virus, starvation, supply chain collapse, whatever. I'm not sure what free money you're talking about, but I'm a business owner and this hasn't been all that fantastic. The free money that I'm eternally grateful about that I haven't received and will maybe cover a week's expenses if I'm lucky is certainly worth it. Again, going back to work costs the country more resources than not going to work. Every person that gets sick prolongs this and costs the country more money. I don't really understand how this is a hard concept for people, I absolutely agree that it sucks that there is famine around the world, but disregarding safety increases the food problem, it doesn't decrease it. Most people don't give a shit about lives or the economy, they're just tired of being home. But nah, you're probably right. I've really enjoyed this time off while I wait to see how I'll pay my bills. I just sort of realize it'll be awfully tricky to pay them if I'm dead, so I'll just deal with it a little while longer and not bitch, because plenty of people have it worse than me.

[TwitchySeal]

People are going to die because of your smug self assured attitude. Thousands, possibly even millions. All because of a bunch of silly selfish cunts who would rather stay home and get "free money" then virtue signal about how they are doing the right thing, and condemning anyone who wants to be able to produce the shit they shovel into their mouths like fat cows. Nothing is free dipshit. You think you just bit into a nice juicy worm, wait until the hook digs in. You are going to pay. We are ALL going to pay.

You really need to lay off the conspiracy/psuedo-science blogs, tabloids and youtube channels.  

Listen directly and objectively to what the most qualified Doctors and Scientists say instead of letting a blog like zerohedge or some guy on youtube explain it to you.  You're smarter than that.

[TECSHARE]

People are going to die because of your smug self assured attitude. Thousands, possibly even millions. All because of a bunch of silly selfish cunts who would rather stay home and get "free money" then virtue signal about how they are doing the right thing, and condemning anyone who wants to be able to produce the shit they shovel into their mouths like fat cows. Nothing is free dipshit. You think you just bit into a nice juicy worm, wait until the hook digs in. You are going to pay. We are ALL going to pay.

You really need to lay off the conspiracy/psuedo-science blogs, tabloids and youtube channels.  

Listen directly and objectively to what the most qualified Doctors and Scientists say instead of letting a blog like zerohedge or some guy on youtube explain it to you.  You're smarter than that.

This isn't an argument.

Oh, well you know them! That makes your argument completely not anecdotal and an appeal to authority right? You believe do you? Have you had your eyes welded shut the last 4 years? Have you not seen the insane lengths some of these districts will go to in order to try to fabricate some kind of scandal or disaster to throw at Trump to give themselves a chance in hell at being able to unseat him via hook or crook? Do you think they are above intentionally cratering the economy to depose him and to create the socialist UBI system they have been trying to push for years? I don't.

This isn't about claiming the virus isn't real or that people shouldn't take precautions. I notice any time anyone objects people love to claim that it is either you support all these totalitarian restrictions or you want to "do nothing". This is about these restrictions being used intentionally as a vector to crater the economy to force a very large portion of the US population into dependence on the government. What could go wrong depending on the government to feed and house you right?

Furthermore this IS breaking the supply chain. Do you think all these producers who are shutting down now because of these restrictions are going to be able to open back up? Of course not. You like to imagine that everything important is designated as essential and therefore everything is fine. That is not how it works in reality. Also you have no concept of how delicate the modern "just in time" supply chain is. These interruptions have dealt critical blows to our supply chain infrastructure, and the longer we let it bleed out the more our capacity to recover dwindles.

The results of the loss of this capacity is not just about profit, it is how all of us are fed, housed, and medically cared for. The number of people effected by this illness is a tiny fraction of the death and pain that will result from this loss of production capacity. Regarding these states begging for federal bail outs, just watch. They are using this situation to claim that is why they were in this position, not because of their own horrible mismanagement, but because of the virus. They will extend the lock downs as long as possible to create even more pressure to push federal bailouts. You watch as the cries for this grow louder.

Self centered? You know what is self centered? People like you who want to stay safe at home collecting "free money" while the people who feed you are losing everything because you think those in charge got it all figured out and would never steer us wrong. What does us being not the only nation dealing with this have to do with anything besides a pathetic appeal to emotion on your part? You know what else effects other nations? When food shortages start here in any scale, poor nations have FAMINE. Not shortages, millions die. Make some more appeals to emotion and tell me about being self centered again you twat.

Back to the self centered part, Canada, Italy, Spain, all of these enemy countries are also doing these same measures to prop up the fight in our country correct? It is in Germany's best interest to tank their economy to perpetuate this scam to crater our economy. Whether you are a republican, a democrat, or a lizard person, the effects this is having on the economy is effecting us the same, we're all in this together. Its absolute arrogance to think this is even slightly about the US, its a global problem. I don't think anyone needs to stage some elaborate global coup d'etat  to try to damage the reputation of the man telling us to inject disinfectant, if he gets the vote, he gets the vote. The dependence on the government you speak of is just listening to them saying its not financially worth for us to allow our people to get infected. While it is a crying shame that the meat processing factories that forced their employees to come to work and caused hundreds of millions of dollars of damage were shut down, lucky for us the Cheetos factory is still open after a 1 day shutdown.

The number of people effected by this illness is a tiny fraction of the death and pain that will result from this loss of production capacity so far! We've had 50,000 people die in a month with safety measures in place. Luckily, I know that you aren't a moron and understand how illness is spread, its a lot slower rolling when there are 100 cases versus 1 million cases, so I don't need to press on the point that every bit of data we can scrape together right now is showing the absolute minimum effect we could possibly have from the virus.

Again, as I mentioned all of the things you're talking about have already been weighed in the official government road map. Trying to factor it in twice isn't really helpful, all rocking the boat does at this point is cost us more money and lives from the virus, starvation, supply chain collapse, whatever. I'm not sure what free money you're talking about, but I'm a business owner and this hasn't been all that fantastic. The free money that I'm eternally grateful about that I haven't received and will maybe cover a week's expenses if I'm lucky is certainly worth it. Again, going back to work costs the country more resources than not going to work. Every person that gets sick prolongs this and costs the country more money. I don't really understand how this is a hard concept for people, I absolutely agree that it sucks that there is famine around the world, but disregarding safety increases the food problem, it doesn't decrease it. Most people don't give a shit about lives or the economy, they're just tired of being home. But nah, you're probably right. I've really enjoyed this time off while I wait to see how I'll pay my bills. I just sort of realize it'll be awfully tricky to pay them if I'm dead, so I'll just deal with it a little while longer and not bitch, because plenty of people have it worse than me.

We don't have any control over the rest of the world, and how they decide to handle this situation is not our responsibility. It is also completely a non-sequitur relating to this discussion. You also assume that there is no one who would profit from burning down the world economy, and there you would be dead wrong. Not only is this a perfect scapegoat to collapse the global economy which has been showing cracks for many years, even when you look at it from China's perspective, they benefit from stalling out the rest of the globe giving them longer to dig their claws in and fight the world's resistance to the system of dependence they have created on them for their manufacturing capacity. It is essentially like China losing at a game of monopoly, rather than admitting defeat, they flip over the table hoping that they might have a chance to find a better position rather than deal with the assured fate of their loss.

Regarding Trump, that is cute how you threw in the recent meme level news you seem to rely on. He didn't tell anyone to do anything, he asked a question. Furthermore what does the word "disinfectant" mean? Lets break it down. Infectant = something that infects, dis = to negate or remove. Disinfectant = something that negates or removes an infectious agent. People desperate to confirm their bias and looking desperately for any "gotcha" moment, real or manufactured rush to this like a bitch in heat because it has great optics in spite of its total lack of substance. Certain entities have been working overtime for DECADES to strip this country of its freedoms, because if we remain free, we will always serve as an example for other nations to desire what we have, freedom. The USA is the last stumbling block in the path of creating a globalist dictatorship. In summary, yes they very much do have motives to do these things in spite of your tenacious clinging to the buttocks of normalcy bias.

As far as the "free money" thanks for pointing out it is ineffective at preventing the shut down of production capacity. No one is being "forced" to come to work. Last I checked slavery was still illegal here. People however are being forced into poverty, homelessness, starvation, and suicide because of state mandates prohibiting them from running their businesses and earning a living to support themselves and others. This isn't a 1 day shut down, this is months on end of shutdown. I am glad you are comfortable. Other people aren't, but that is a sacrifice you are willing to make isn't it? It is kind of hard to shelter in place if you are homeless is it not? Lets just ignore the fact that even if everything opened up tomorrow, nothing would stop you from just staying home to protect yourself now would it? Regarding deaths, you would rather pretend that the peak of effect in one month is not a bell curve but something that will continue month after month. You know damned well even if ZERO precautions were taken, that is not how diseases work. Far more people die from car accidents every year, if this is the logic we are using we should ban cars immediately. No one has a right to put other people's lives at risk driving around after all.

This isn't just about cost of life or cost in money. Your precious projections you claim that have been so carefully worked out have no way to measure the permanent loss of production capacity over time that will result as the after effect of this no matter how much you chant "the government is here to help!" You are right, people don't give a shit. They want to sit at home safe and collect checks for doing nothing like an extended paid vacation. Unfortunately those little slips of paper don't mean shit when the people who actually produce the products you need to survive are driven out of business never to return.

[SaltySpitoon]

We don't have any control over the rest of the world, and how they decide to handle this situation is not our responsibility. It is also completely a non-sequitur relating to this discussion. You also assume that there is no one who would profit from burning down the world economy, and there you would be dead wrong. Not only is this a perfect scapegoat to collapse the global economy which has been showing cracks for many years, even when you look at it from China's perspective, they benefit from stalling out the rest of the globe giving them longer to dig their claws in and fight the world's resistance to the system of dependence they have created on them for their manufacturing capacity. It is essentially like China losing at a game of monopoly, rather than admitting defeat, they flip over the table hoping that they might have a chance to find a better position rather than deal with the assured fate of their loss.

Regarding Trump, that is cute how you threw in the recent meme level news you seem to rely on. He didn't tell anyone to do anything, he asked a question. Furthermore what does the word "disinfectant" mean? Lets break it down. Infectant = something that infects, dis = to negate or remove. Disinfectant = something that negates or removes an infectious agent. People desperate to confirm their bias and looking desperately for any "gotcha" moment, real or manufactured rush to this like a bitch in heat because it has great optics in spite of its total lack of substance. Certain entities have been working overtime for DECADES to strip this country of its freedoms, because if we remain free, we will always serve as an example for other nations to desire what we have, freedom. The USA is the last stumbling block in the path of creating a globalist dictatorship. In summary, yes they very much do have motives to do these things in spite of your tenacious clinging to the buttocks of normalcy bias.

As far as the "free money" thanks for pointing out it is ineffective at preventing the shut down of production capacity. No one is being "forced" to come to work. Last I checked slavery was still illegal here. People however are being forced into poverty, homelessness, starvation, and suicide because of state mandates prohibiting them from running their businesses and earning a living to support themselves and others. This isn't a 1 day shut down, this is months on end of shutdown. I am glad you are comfortable. Other people aren't, but that is a sacrifice you are willing to make isn't it? It is kind of hard to shelter in place if you are homeless is it not? Lets just ignore the fact that even if everything opened up tomorrow, nothing would stop you from just staying home to protect yourself now would it? Regarding deaths, you would rather pretend that the peak of effect in one month is not a bell curve but something that will continue month after month. You know damned well even if ZERO precautions were taken, that is not how diseases work. Far more people die from car accidents every year, if this is the logic we are using we should ban cars immediately. No one has a right to put other people's lives at risk driving around after all.

This isn't just about cost of life or cost in money. Your precious projections you claim that have been so carefully worked out have no way to measure the permanent loss of production capacity over time that will result as the after effect of this no matter how much you chant "the government is here to help!" You are right, people don't give a shit. They want to sit at home safe and collect checks for doing nothing like an extended paid vacation. Unfortunately those little slips of paper don't mean shit when the people who actually produce the products you need to survive are driven out of business never to return.

I don't really care about Trump one way or another so I don't need to attack or defend him, I think the man is a moron personally, but I also respect people's right to vote for a moron if they so choose.

I would say your naivety is cute, but I know you are smarter than some of the others here, and you are deliberately leaving things out to make an argument to what you feel has more importance. My point about every other country in the world was to say that its ridiculous to think that this is an internal political game we're playing when nearly every other country in the world is dealing with the same problem and rallying together to deal with the problem rather than polarizing things even further. Everyone else in the world wants to laugh at our incompetence, but our health effects them as well so the laughing is a bit more stifled than it would be otherwise.

Globalism happens when transportation gets better. Staying as the good ole 1800s America protected by a sea gets tricky when we have airplanes that'll get us to Europe in 6 hours. If the global dictator's plan was to breed a country stupid enough to kill itself in order to stay out of their clutches, they're doing a fantastic job. We're tanking our own economy and killing our own people faster than they possibly could, so congratulations! We don't have time to play around with the spooky possibilities when we have an immediate threat. I actually agree with a lot of your thoughts at least to a degree in a regular situation, but its not the time to figure out what to have for dinner when you're inside of a burning building.

The no one is being forced to come to work thing is an absolute joke, you know just as well as I do the power employers hold over their employees. Look at the meat processing plants where they were told to come in sick otherwise they'd risk losing their jobs. We like to say idealistic things about how everyone has free will and slavery is illegal, but wage/debt slavery is a very real concept thats absolutely cemented as part of human nature. Why did we ever allow ourselves to be serfs, why did we ever allow ourselves to be slaves, I certainly would never have been a slave, yet these things keep repeating. As soon as the government says we're ready to open up, whether thats ill advised or not, every company where the decisionmaking body isn't right on the front line with the minimum wage slaves will be opening up. In states that open too soon, unemployment benefits dry up for those that know that they should not return back to work. Just a reminder, unemployment is something they take out of your paycheck and hold onto, it is your money, its not the government giving you a handout. I'm not sure why you think I'm comfortable, I pretty explicitly said that I was not, and my situation isn't all that great, but it beats being dead! Again, I repeat, going against "the plan" makes things worse. We've all got a shitty situation and we can deal with it, or we can make it worse.

I'm actually pretty glad you brought up risk analysis. In New York right now, Corona virus is on track to kill more people than every single cause of death.
in 2017 155,000 people died in New York of all causes. Old age, heart disease, cancer, etc. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2017/#mort
in 2016 154,000 people died in New York of all causes. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2016/table31a.htm
in 2015 154,000 people as well https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2015/table31a.htm

Yeah yeah I know the risk isn't the same for population dense areas versus rural Montana, but you'll see similar results for all of the states that have been hit hard, and again we're just at the beginning of this.

I'm floored by your statement about, staying at home and collecting checks. I'd rather earn 10x more money working and not have to worry about how I'll be able to square the debts I'm incurring now. What I do agree with is simple math and risk analysis, insurance companies have been doing it successfully forever, so I'm fairly confident that the US government has the ability to weigh the risks. Follow me here cameraman, we reopen everything back up, and the statisticians predict that every 1 in X people will end up hospitalized as the result, we estimate how many people it'll spread to from them and their risk of hospitalization, we then figure out how many people total will likely end up hospitalized/dead. Add in the effect of people missing 2-3 weeks of work home sick, etc. We tally up all of the bills versus all of the economic benefit of them going back to work, and if we tally it all up and its negative, they tell us to stay home or we'll make things worse. We've got a baseline of lives lost, short term/long term economic damage. Measures are in place to minimize all of that. Losing a job for 2 months due to a natural disaster sucks, losing it for 40 years because it kills the person working there is worse.

If I was making $10/hr checking tickets at the movie theater, I'd like to say I'd be in a position to weigh the chances of me incurring $140k worth of medical debt versus the value of my paycheck, but a rumbling stomach makes that decision for you sometimes. Or, we can listen to the medical professionals that are collaborating with the government and their statisticians to follow a responsible reopening plan that minimizes economic impact and fatalities. Or we can throw temper tantrums and starve and infect more people than the absolute minimum.

[BADecker]

^^^ Actually, there are two basic forms of Coronavirus:
1. The family of viruses that fit the CV group;
2. The popular Coronavirus which isn't a literal virus at all, but is just a bunch of words.

The pandemic is part of #2. It's a bloating of the information about deaths regarding Coronavirus virus. You can easily see this in the fact that deaths from CV/Covid-19 have gone way up, while deaths from all other cause have gone way down. They haven't, of course. But that's the reports, simply to make CV look way more dangerous than it is.

On top of that, in the USA, we are finding out that way more millions of people have CV, and are healthy because their bodies have developed a natural immunity.

So, the pandemic is a political/money pandemic, existing just to scare people into becoming subservient to government via their own fears.

[TECSHARE]

I don't really care about Trump one way or another so I don't need to attack or defend him, I think the man is a moron personally, but I also respect people's right to vote for a moron if they so choose.

I would say your naivety is cute, but I know you are smarter than some of the others here, and you are deliberately leaving things out to make an argument to what you feel has more importance. My point about every other country in the world was to say that its ridiculous to think that this is an internal political game we're playing when nearly every other country in the world is dealing with the same problem and rallying together to deal with the problem rather than polarizing things even further. Everyone else in the world wants to laugh at our incompetence, but our health effects them as well so the laughing is a bit more stifled than it would be otherwise.

Globalism happens when transportation gets better. Staying as the good ole 1800s America protected by a sea gets tricky when we have airplanes that'll get us to Europe in 6 hours. If the global dictator's plan was to breed a country stupid enough to kill itself in order to stay out of their clutches, they're doing a fantastic job. We're tanking our own economy and killing our own people faster than they possibly could, so congratulations! We don't have time to play around with the spooky possibilities when we have an immediate threat. I actually agree with a lot of your thoughts at least to a degree in a regular situation, but its not the time to figure out what to have for dinner when you're inside of a burning building.

The no one is being forced to come to work thing is an absolute joke, you know just as well as I do the power employers hold over their employees. Look at the meat processing plants where they were told to come in sick otherwise they'd risk losing their jobs. We like to say idealistic things about how everyone has free will and slavery is illegal, but wage/debt slavery is a very real concept thats absolutely cemented as part of human nature. Why did we ever allow ourselves to be serfs, why did we ever allow ourselves to be slaves, I certainly would never have been a slave, yet these things keep repeating. As soon as the government says we're ready to open up, whether thats ill advised or not, every company where the decisionmaking body isn't right on the front line with the minimum wage slaves will be opening up. In states that open too soon, unemployment benefits dry up for those that know that they should not return back to work. Just a reminder, unemployment is something they take out of your paycheck and hold onto, it is your money, its not the government giving you a handout. I'm not sure why you think I'm comfortable, I pretty explicitly said that I was not, and my situation isn't all that great, but it beats being dead! Again, I repeat, going against "the plan" makes things worse. We've all got a shitty situation and we can deal with it, or we can make it worse.

I'm actually pretty glad you brought up risk analysis. In New York right now, Corona virus is on track to kill more people than every single cause of death.
in 2017 155,000 people died in New York of all causes. Old age, heart disease, cancer, etc. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2017/#mort
in 2016 154,000 people died in New York of all causes. https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2016/table31a.htm
in 2015 154,000 people as well https://www.health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2015/table31a.htm

Yeah yeah I know the risk isn't the same for population dense areas versus rural Montana, but you'll see similar results for all of the states that have been hit hard, and again we're just at the beginning of this.

I'm floored by your statement about, staying at home and collecting checks. I'd rather earn 10x more money working and not have to worry about how I'll be able to square the debts I'm incurring now. What I do agree with is simple math and risk analysis, insurance companies have been doing it successfully forever, so I'm fairly confident that the US government has the ability to weigh the risks. Follow me here cameraman, we reopen everything back up, and the statisticians predict that every 1 in X people will end up hospitalized as the result, we estimate how many people it'll spread to from them and their risk of hospitalization, we then figure out how many people total will likely end up hospitalized/dead. Add in the effect of people missing 2-3 weeks of work home sick, etc. We tally up all of the bills versus all of the economic benefit of them going back to work, and if we tally it all up and its negative, they tell us to stay home or we'll make things worse. We've got a baseline of lives lost, short term/long term economic damage. Measures are in place to minimize all of that. Losing a job for 2 months due to a natural disaster sucks, losing it for 40 years because it kills the person working there is worse.

If I was making $10/hr checking tickets at the movie theater, I'd like to say I'd be in a position to weigh the chances of me incurring $140k worth of medical debt versus the value of my paycheck, but a rumbling stomach makes that decision for you sometimes. Or, we can listen to the medical professionals that are collaborating with the government and their statisticians to follow a responsible reopening plan that minimizes economic impact and fatalities. Or we can throw temper tantrums and starve and infect more people than the absolute minimum.

No need to attack or defend him! [proceeds to attack him] This is why I have no respect for you in spite of being intelligent, you talk out of both sides of your face. I am not leaving anything out, you are 100% projecting. I am specifically pointing out the facts you wish to ignore. Me pointing out the things you would rather gloss over is not leaving anything out, it is me saying your premise does not outweigh what I am presenting. That is called presenting an argument.

It is both an internal and an international game. The USA is still the most powerful nation in the world, and as a result international forces have a stake in what happens here. To pretend this is not the case is asinine. The world wants to laugh at us because it is fucking trendy, and it gives them the opportunity to ignore and deflect from their own domestic issues. The rest of the world doesn't get to decide which rights and freedoms we have, sorry.

I like your false choice fallacy here insinuating that resisting globalism is equivalent to going back to the 1800's. Yes, we are tanking our own economy. That was exactly my premise, thanks for reinforcing it. Fear and panic is being used to con people like you into supporting this suicidal economic policy. You keep talking about all kinds of hypothetical situations of what could occur, I am telling you what IS occurring, right now, and what will continue to occur even if this policy is reversed immediately. It is not theoretical, it is factual. These lock downs are destroying our economy and that will result in MILLIONS of lost lives, homelessness, and poverty which hasn't been seen in generations.

No, no one is forced to go to work. They still have a choice. Just because it is a hard choice doesn't make it force. A state mandate however is literally force, as in if you disobey it men with guns come and force you comply. This isn't idealism, this is a fact. No, actually it isn't my money or anyone's money. It is created out of thin air, and is debt on the future. Not only is this irresponsible to future generations, that has been the case for generations, it is so over the top it is driving us to hyperinflation at warp speed. It is destroying any of what was left of price signalling and making our heavily inflated currency create totally irrational markets. Irrational markets means that the system fails. The system failing means the supply chain, which is a very complex system breaks down. That means the products we need to survive simply are not being produced. I could sleep on a bed of $100 bills, it means nothing if there is no food to buy. What you don't get is what you are advocating for IS making it worse, and your irrational fear is blinding you to that.

Interesting... since you brought up the numbers (which again ignore the bell curve but lets leave that aside for a moment). Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls57z3RXcOc

Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death. Dying of cancer and in hospice, but test positive for COVID? Another COVID death. Even if your stats were 100% accurate, the impact that this will have on the economy DWARFS those death rates. It is impossible to make accurate projections with flawed base statistics.

You are ignoring the resulting poverty, suicides, homelessness, and deaths from people not being able to scheduled regular medical treatments, not because of resources being maxed out, but as a matter of policy. You keep making appeals to authority that they already accounted for all of this, but it simply doesn't wash even under moderate scrutiny.

Good for you, such a noble soul you are. Are you really telling me you think most people would prefer to work rather than sit home and earn MORE than they were paid to work? Now you are just being disingenuous. This is not just about the individual people suffering economic hardship, this is about the totality of the organs of the economy dying, and this is not something you just easily replace. This is the economic equivalent of organ failure. We depend on those organs to survive. Command economies kill those organs faster than anything.

"We are from the government, we are here to help!"

"Do not run, we are your friends!"

"...listen to the medical professionals that are collaborating with the government and their statisticians to follow a responsible reopening plan that minimizes economic impact and fatalities."

Famous last words.

You are a fucking fool if you believe this. Again, you appeal to authority and then proceed to project upon me the results your own favored policy will cause. I don't care how many experts you have. The economy can not be managed this way. If you know anything about economics you know the repeating theme of it throughout history is that it is too complicated to be effectively centrally managed, and that is exactly what you are advocating for. There is a difference between BELIEVING they accounted for all the variables, and actually accounting for all the variables. What you have here is a religion based on your faith in authority, not a factually based premise no matter how much you kick and scream about it.

More related:

"UV Light Flu Treatment"

https://youtu.be/ugRLoikr_-4



"Twitter Suspends Account Of Biotech Company Testing UV Light To Treat Coronavirus"

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/twitter-suspends-account-biotech-company-testing-uv-light-treat-coronavirus



"Maryland Joins Push To End Lockdowns"

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/maryland-joins-push-end-lockdowns-china-claims-coronavirus-has-been-eradicated-wuhan



"Coronavirus: France bans online sales of nicotine products"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52415793



"American Farms Cull Millions Of Chickens Amid Virus-Related Staff Shortages At Processing Plants"

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/farms-across-delmarva-cull-millions-chickens-amid-virus-related-staff-shortages-processing



"At Least 10 Meatpacking Plants Close In Weeks Across America Stoking Food Shortage Fears"

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/tyson-close-its-largest-pork-plant-over-coronavirus-fears



"Dr. Birx Slams "Slicey & Dicey" Mainstream Media For Fixation On Trump's 'Sunlight' Comments"

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/dr-birx-slams-slicey-dicey-cnn-media-fixation-trumps-sunlight-comments



"The COVID-19 Crisis Is Driving the EU to the Brink"

https://mises.org/wire/covid-19-crisis-driving-eu-brink



"Ending the Lockdowns Isn't about Saving Money. It's about Saving Lives. "

https://mises.org/wire/ending-lockdowns-isnt-about-saving-money-its-about-saving-lives



"How Shutdowns Will Keep Killing the Economy, Even When They're Over"

https://mises.org/wire/how-shutdowns-will-keep-killing-economy-even-when-theyre-over

[SaltySpitoon]

Yes, any opinion you have on someone is an attack. If you disagree or think someone is a moron, its an attack. Keep playing the victim card, its a pretty strong tool to gather sympathy for shallow arguments. The USA is not powerful, its one of the most fragile nations in the world because our citizens outright hate each other. We've got a government thats accountable to no one and makes us look like fools, while starting fires all over the world. Travel outside of your bubble and see how much people despise us, its sort of a bummer having to claim to be Canadian when you travel to Europe at the risk of your safety, or having suppliers in China/India/Pakistan not want to do business with you because they don't like Americans.

You are outright lying about caring about other people and all of your bullshit about covid statistics, no one of sound mind is buying it. You obviously have no idea what medical oversight boards and hospital standards are. Your statements about causes of death are demonstrably false. Again, in case I haven't made it abundantly clear, the economic impact has already been factored in. I doubt you need a simple math lesson, but when opening a business that creates $100k per year in wealth costs the country $280k, that is bad.  Remember the middle school economics example where there is a graph of supply and demand for a CD at different price points, and they find that intersection where demand and price is maximized to create the most profit? The thousands of medical professionals, business leaders, and statisticians all worked together to do one of those fancy graphs on when it makes sense to reopen the government. When the expected cost of reopening becomes lower than the cost of staying closed, and the conditions that we'll need to see for that to be the case. Opening too early causes more homelessness, poverty, and all of that other stuff you are pretending to care about for the sake of your half assed argument. Lets put the flames out with gasoline is not a valid game plan, it sucks that the world is dealing with a global crisis, but its embarrassing that we are the only country with any significant amount of nut jobs protesting while nurses desperately try to keep them alive. If you want to get sick, chances are you'll just be ill for a couple of weeks but be fine. Don't expose others, and don't go to the hospital and take the resources that should be devoted to people who aren't rushing to their own deaths because they can't trust the big bad gubmint. For literally once in our lifetimes, the government plan aligns with our own interest, but we're so used to getting boned by them that we've got to express ourselves against them like some rebellious goth teenager that wants a nose ring. Theres wisdom in questioning and selectively fighting battles. You're just a brat if you're fighting for the sake of fighting.

I'm not saying who gives a shit about the economy, I'm saying we can deal with it in the near future. Its hard to come together and fix a problem if we're at each other's throats because your decisions have negative impacts on society as a whole. Even harder if we aren't alive to fix the problem. Again, if you want to be a realists, we can even toss out the whole emotional aspect of people dying and just talk about the chances you run of racking up a life time of medical debt. This isn't the sniffles, something that holds a significant percent chance of hospitalization is a big deal. How many people will go bankrupt and become homeless because they can't pay their ICU bills? We've actually got those statistics, and they aren't very happy.

Look at you bowing to authority is not an argument, the authority is telling us not to die and we're telling them, you can't tell us what to do! They've got a vested interest in not tanking the economy, in keeping you alive to continue paying your taxes, but nah, lets not listen to them because we are the authority now. Why is no one protesting bridges? Why do you trust engineers that think they are the authority on what can keep a building from falling down or a bridge from collapsing? Do your own electrical work, put out your own house fires, do your own architecture work, and manage the treatment of your own water, otherwise you are a authority bowing stooge the same way I am.  Sadly we don't live long enough lives to become experts on all subjects, so we rely on other people to figure some things out for us. Don't get onto an airplane or into a car until you know for certain they aren't designed to kill us. When the government doesn't have a reason to screw us over, what they have is the resources to gather real data and pay teams of people that can put millions of man hours into solving a problem.

This isn't a safe time to throw your tinfoil hat on and think about all the ways the man is trying to get you. If you want to theorize about the moon landing or 9/11 you aren't actively endangering anyone. Think and do whatever you want as long as you aren't a burden on others. If trusting thousands of professionals that are collaborating with thousands of other professionals in other fields, with the gathered resources of a government entity, and in general collaboration with independent teams of other professionals/business leaders rather than listening to Jim the pissed off tattoo artist makes me a fool, I'm good with being a fool.


*edit*

"Maryland Joins Push To End Lockdowns"

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/maryland-joins-push-end-lockdowns-china-claims-coronavirus-has-been-eradicated-wuhan

Just thought I'd add, I'm in Maryland and am incredibly pleased with how the response has been. Governor Hogan is a republican governor in a blue state that has been exceedingly popular because hes willing to put aside infighting to deal with whatever the issue is. He said from the onset that he's got a staff hes confident with and is following the advise of the world's leading medical facilities here in the state. He was treated by Johns Hopkins for cancer so he knows just how incredibly competent they are. Hes put out his road map for opening back up the state which I'm assuming you are approving of since you posted a link about it. I too approve of it because its responsibly crafted and appears to have a good measure of safety and realism factored in. I'm not saying we should keep everything shut down forever, but we should be listening to the teams of competent people we put in charge because they're competent, rather than refusing to follow their orders because we can't comply or we'll be government toadies.

Remember friends, the government says that drinking and driving and smoking cigarettes is bad for you. They also say you should eat fruit and vegetables, and take it easy on the fats and sugars, but if you agree with any of that, you're a government stooge. If you aren't smoking crack and eating slim jims, you're part of the problem.

[TECSHARE]

Yes, any opinion you have on someone is an attack. If you disagree or think someone is a moron, its an attack. Keep playing the victim card, its a pretty strong tool to gather sympathy for shallow arguments. The USA is not powerful, its one of the most fragile nations in the world because our citizens outright hate each other. We've got a government thats accountable to no one and makes us look like fools, while starting fires all over the world. Travel outside of your bubble and see how much people despise us, its sort of a bummer having to claim to be Canadian when you travel to Europe at the risk of your safety, or having suppliers in China/India/Pakistan not want to do business with you because they don't like Americans.

You are outright lying about caring about other people and all of your bullshit about covid statistics, no one of sound mind is buying it. You obviously have no idea what medical oversight boards and hospital standards are. Your statements about causes of death are demonstrably false. Again, in case I haven't made it abundantly clear, the economic impact has already been factored in. I doubt you need a simple math lesson, but when opening a business that creates $100k per year in wealth costs the country $280k, that is bad.  Remember the middle school economics example where there is a graph of supply and demand for a CD at different price points, and they find that intersection where demand and price is maximized to create the most profit? The thousands of medical professionals, business leaders, and statisticians all worked together to do one of those fancy graphs on when it makes sense to reopen the government. When the expected cost of reopening becomes lower than the cost of staying closed, and the conditions that we'll need to see for that to be the case. Opening too early causes more homelessness, poverty, and all of that other stuff you are pretending to care about for the sake of your half assed argument. Lets put the flames out with gasoline is not a valid game plan, it sucks that the world is dealing with a global crisis, but its embarrassing that we are the only country with any significant amount of nut jobs protesting while nurses desperately try to keep them alive. If you want to get sick, chances are you'll just be ill for a couple of weeks but be fine. Don't expose others, and don't go to the hospital and take the resources that should be devoted to people who aren't rushing to their own deaths because they can't trust the big bad gubmint. For literally once in our lifetimes, the government plan aligns with our own interest, but we're so used to getting boned by them that we've got to express ourselves against them like some rebellious goth teenager that wants a nose ring. Theres wisdom in questioning and selectively fighting battles. You're just a brat if you're fighting for the sake of fighting.

I'm not saying who gives a shit about the economy, I'm saying we can deal with it in the near future. Its hard to come together and fix a problem if we're at each other's throats because your decisions have negative impacts on society as a whole. Even harder if we aren't alive to fix the problem. Again, if you want to be a realists, we can even toss out the whole emotional aspect of people dying and just talk about the chances you run of racking up a life time of medical debt. This isn't the sniffles, something that holds a significant percent chance of hospitalization is a big deal. How many people will go bankrupt and become homeless because they can't pay their ICU bills? We've actually got those statistics, and they aren't very happy.

Look at you bowing to authority is not an argument, the authority is telling us not to die and we're telling them, you can't tell us what to do! They've got a vested interest in not tanking the economy, in keeping you alive to continue paying your taxes, but nah, lets not listen to them because we are the authority now. Why is no one protesting bridges? Why do you trust engineers that think they are the authority on what can keep a building from falling down or a bridge from collapsing? Do your own electrical work, put out your own house fires, do your own architecture work, and manage the treatment of your own water, otherwise you are a authority bowing stooge the same way I am.  Sadly we don't live long enough lives to become experts on all subjects, so we rely on other people to figure some things out for us. Don't get onto an airplane or into a car until you know for certain they aren't designed to kill us. When the government doesn't have a reason to screw us over, what they have is the resources to gather real data and pay teams of people that can put millions of man hours into solving a problem.

This isn't a safe time to throw your tinfoil hat on and think about all the ways the man is trying to get you. If you want to theorize about the moon landing or 9/11 you aren't actively endangering anyone. Think and do whatever you want as long as you aren't a burden on others. If trusting thousands of professionals that are collaborating with thousands of other professionals in other fields, with the gathered resources of a government entity, and in general collaboration with independent teams of other professionals/business leaders rather than listening to Jim the pissed off tattoo artist makes me a fool, I'm good with being a fool.


*edit*

"Maryland Joins Push To End Lockdowns"

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/maryland-joins-push-end-lockdowns-china-claims-coronavirus-has-been-eradicated-wuhan

Just thought I'd add, I'm in Maryland and am incredibly pleased with how the response has been. Governor Hogan is a republican governor in a blue state that has been exceedingly popular because hes willing to put aside infighting to deal with whatever the issue is. He said from the onset that he's got a staff hes confident with and is following the advise of the world's leading medical facilities here in the state. He was treated by Johns Hopkins for cancer so he knows just how incredibly competent they are. Hes put out his road map for opening back up the state which I'm assuming you are approving of since you posted a link about it. I too approve of it because its responsibly crafted and appears to have a good measure of safety and realism factored in. I'm not saying we should keep everything shut down forever, but we should be listening to the teams of competent people we put in charge because they're competent, rather than refusing to follow their orders because we can't comply or we'll be government toadies.

Remember friends, the government says that drinking and driving and smoking cigarettes is bad for you. They also say you should eat fruit and vegetables, and take it easy on the fats and sugars, but if you agree with any of that, you're a government stooge. If you aren't smoking crack and eating slim jims, you're part of the problem.

It has nothing to do with "playing a victim card". It is a demonstration of how you make a lofty claim from a position of self declared superiority, then claim such a debate is irrelevant as you then immediately engage in an ad hominem attack. This is your hypocrisy on showcase, not any sense of victim-hood. Tell me more about shallow arguments as you spout off character attacks and then chastise me for engaging in such a debate out of the other side of your mouth.

I see, now you are psychic as well? You know my inner thoughts and intents do you? You haven't made anything abundantly clear except your claim that your statement is true. That is not evidence, that is a statement of your belief. You might as well tell me Jesus told you so. Lets look at the standards set out by the CDC:




"It  is  important  to  remember  that  death  certificate  reporting  may  not  meet  mandatory  reporting  requirements  for  reportable  diseases;  contact  the  local  health  department regarding regulations specific to the jurisdiction.In  cases  where  a  definite  diagnosis  of  COVID–19  cannot  be  made,  but  it  is  suspected  or  likely  (e.g.,  the  circumstances  are  compelling  within  a  reasonable  degree  of  certainty),  it  is  acceptable  to  report  COVID–19  on  a  death  certificate  as  “probable” or “presumed.”"

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm



How about this public statement from the Illinois Department of Health Director:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls57z3RXcOc




What am I lying about exactly?

Once again, this is not just about a 1 dimensional cost benefit analysis. The claim that these analyses factor in long term macro economic factors is not only asinine, but is factually impossible. There is NO WAY such a complex system of inter-dependencies were factored into this equation, because the market effects on a macro scale are not quantifiable in any reliable sense. This is the whole point of price signalling as a core principal of economics, because there is no reliable way to dictate from a centralized top down position the most efficient priority and cost. Furthermore, even if you want to desperately cling to such an argument, there is no way they could have done a complete analysis of such effect in such a short period of time no matter how many experts you cram into a room. These are assumptions and projections AT BEST. And of course the totality of this argument relies completely on valid reporting of base statistics, which itself is clearly under dispute as referenced above. You crap out all the hyperbole you like, it changes none of this.

Your rights end when they infringe on the rights of others. No one has a right to be free from being exposed to infection by stripping the rights of others, sorry. You have a right to take precautions yourself. You do not have a right to create a litany of unconstitutional and destructive mandates to preserve your perception of safety. Sick people should stay home, people should take precautions. The state has no authority to impose these mandates. Period. Guidelines are acceptable. Mandates are not. Lowering the base level of freedoms to the lowest common denominator is not freedom at all but penalizing the entire population for the lack of response of a minority. Make some more character attacks, maybe I will go boo hoo and go away and not hold you to making a valid logical debate instead of this tripe you are vomiting. Worth a try right? Once again, you claim to know my internal thoughts and intents.

I am saying the destruction resulting from these mandates as it is at this current time will have impacts many years into the future, and the first effects are manifesting in the present. The economy is on fire, your claims we can just put it out later is not an argument. This is a time sensitive issue, and your poo pooing of the negative consequences as being something we can deal with later is not an argument. There we are again, demonstrating how much you are desperately struggling for any kind of argument, you cap it off with another long string of ad hominem attacks.

This is sad Salty. Deal with your cognitive dissonance like a man instead of lashing out like an angry child that got told he is too big for his binky. This is just pathetically weak.



More related:


'Whisteblowing ER Docs Urge "Open Up Society Now" Because "Lockdowns Are Weakening Our Immune Systems"'

https://www.aier.org/article/open-up-society-now-say-dr-dan-erickson-and-dr-artin-massihi/



"Recession & Depression"

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/recession-and-depression/



"Small Businesses In Catch-22 Begin Revolt: 'Defy State's Stay-At-Home Order Or Face Collections'"

https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/defy-states-stay-home-order-or-face-collections-small-businesses-life-or-death-catch-22

[SaltySpitoon]

As to the self declared superiority claim, I'm claiming that the thousands of people who's job it is to do the analysis are superior to both of us at the task of advising on what our best course of action is. I'm just curious how many millions of hours you've spent sifting through the raw data, talking to individual business owners to see what losses they're experiencing, and where you've gathered your data that you're drawing all of your conclusions from? Unfortunately, I don't have the resources, ability, or personnel to do that personally, so I rely on others to do that for me, and hope that discrepancies found between Team USA and Team Canada for example would help to clear up any errors along the way.  

I apologize for the ad hominem comments, stupid people don't frustrate me, smart people that act stupid do. I feel it absolutely unnecessary to explain why your claims about probable corona virus deaths and reporting is an outright lie because again, I don't believe that you believe what you are saying. You know as well as I do how pathologists do post mortem reports, they don't spin the wheel to decide what to write down as a cause of death. If you come into a hospital with a stab wound, cancer, seasonal allergies, and a cavity and you bleed out from your stab wound, your cause of death is not listed as seasonal allergies. Please look again at what your own CDC link says about the separation between probable and confirmed corona virus cases, as well as the part about data lagging up to a week and being constantly amended. If you die of pneumonia from the flu and it gets listed as probable corona virus death, what happens next week when you test negative? Ah, the number gets amended, fantastic.

That is absolutely reasonable, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, and you call it a duck only later to find out it was a quacking waddling chicken, the record gets changed when you find out its a chicken. Hospitals have oversight committees, its a group of jackasses that represent the hospital and watch for lawsuit risks. If Coroner A is doing something that could get them sued, they cut that out.

Once again, this is not just about a 1 dimensional cost benefit analysis. The claim that these analyses factor in long term macro economic factors is not only asinine, but is factually impossible. There is NO WAY such a complex system of inter-dependencies were factored into this equation, because the market effects on a macro scale are not quantifiable in any reliable sense.

 

This is literally a job people do every single day when they make forecasts on the economy. Calculus and computers make magic! My only point that I've now brought up literally four times now in this thread, is that while it might be asinine for me to claim that I've done all of these calculations personally, its business as usual for the people who's job it is to map out the correlation between how often people change their underwear and how well the economy is doing. Do you know how much more complicated predicting the weather is than this?

Your rights end when they infringe on the rights of others.

I could not agree with you more. Your right to enjoy a nice bowling game does not outweigh the life of the guy handling the ball after you. Everyone is dealing with this together, grow up, deal with it like an adult and not an angry kid that can't deal with being told what to do. We can all stay home for a month, or half of the population can stay home for a year while the other half disregards the order and takes up precious resources that they don't deserve.

Just keep in mind that if you have a pet dog and you're eating a chocolate bar and refusing to give any to the dog, from the dog's point of view, you're just an asshole who doesn't want to share.

[BADecker]

^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.

[TwitchySeal]

^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.

Proof that he is an avid reader of conspiracy/pseudo science blogs.  Right up your alley.

 

[SaltySpitoon]

^^^ TECSHARE showed you the proof links. But you are so set in your ways that the proof could jump right up and bite you in the eyeball, and it wouldn't phase you in the least.

https://www.theonion.com/u-s-blowjobless-rate-at-all-time-high-1819567963

Proof:

Fine, how about the best middle ground reasonable compromise that I can think of because we really aren't going to change each others minds and we're just going to frustrate each other. Don't listen to me or any official reports or media be it what I'd consider credible media or what you consider credible media. Talk to someone directly involved in this that you 100% absolutely trust, be it your personal doctor/nurse that I hope you've built up a long relationship with, or a trusted family friend/neighbor that happens to be a first responder, just someone from an involved field.

No egghead statisticians, TV producers, incomprehensible evil scientists or government lackeys, just someone you personally know with firsthand experience. If they tell you its all a bunch of nonsense then go with it.

[sirazimuth]

....instead of lashing out like an angry child that got told he is too big for his binky. This is just pathetically weak.

My irony meter just pegged and broke.

You know what dude? Everytime I read your rebuttals and I hit this type of shit , you just lose all credibility in my eyes.
Why do you always have to be a prick when putting forth your argument?

[franky1]

A state mandate however is literally force, as in if you disobey it men with guns come and force you comply.
.......
Yes, those precious stats you have so much confidence in are flawed. That is right. Some one who was a car accident, but tested positive for COVID, then later died of the trauma injuries is counted as a COVID death.

1. state mandate is not the same as marshal law
no michigans go shot by cops during protests

2. no, someone involved in a road traffic accident will not be classed as a covid death if the only covid symptom is a cough and they die due to injurys from road accident.
you have been watching the same crap as badecker and i debunked his ignorance many times
here is the summary
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5240262.msg54301190#msg54301190

3. no one is forcing you to stay home. you can actually adapt your 'business' to tender to people during this event

[PrimeNumber7]

The no one is being forced to come to work thing is an absolute joke, you know just as well as I do the power employers hold over their employees. Look at the meat processing plants where they were told to come in sick otherwise they'd risk losing their jobs.

I would point out that if the economy were to reopen today, those who choose not to return to work would be in the same situation they are in today -- without a way to earn an income or support their family. They would still receive unemployment benefits (even though they are technically ineligible due to declining work, but I doubt states are checking/care).

If the economy were to open up, people would have the choice to either continue staying home or return to work.

The initial argument to close the economy was not to prevent people from getting infected, it was to cause infections to spread over a longer period of time so the healthcare system can operate at under 100% capacity, and provide care for everyone who might be saved from receiving care. In most of the country, hospitals are sitting empty, and many medical professionals are being furloughed.

The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

[TwitchySeal]

The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.

When you're trying to figure out when something that's growing exponentially is going to end, being off by a factor of 10 isn't as big of a miss as it sounds.  From March 15 till the first week of April the number of Cases and Deaths increased by ~100x, they were about to run out of hospital rooms , doctors, nurses and PPE, shutting down public transportation is not an option and nobody knewhow many of the 9 million residents were still in the city.  There were a shitload of unknowns.
Preparing for the worst case scenario isn't wrong just because it didn't happen - the whole narrative of making him out to be 'wrong' is purely political.

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths.

I'm sure there are some people that tested positive and then got hit by a bus or ODed or something, but in NY (and I think NJ), they stopped testing dead bodies found in their home.  They were estimating 150-200 a day likely Covid deaths were not reported when NY was on that stretch of 700-800 deaths every day for a while.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

I don't think people congregating in public negate effects of keeping non essential businesses closed.

Most will hang out with the same people, close to their home.

If you just open everything up there will be tons more interactions among strangers coming from far and wide.  Best case is everything just kind of works out - and that's possible.  Worst case is the economy takes even more damage and takes many times longer to recover than if we just did things slowly and methodically.

[franky1]

im starting to think these ignorant people dont want business to open up for economic growth. thy instead are just immature and sad that they cant go to disneyworld this summer

[SaltySpitoon]

....instead of lashing out like an angry child that got told he is too big for his binky. This is just pathetically weak.

My irony meter just pegged and broke.

You know what dude? Everytime I read your rebuttals and I hit this type of shit , you just lose all credibility in my eyes.
Why do you always have to be a prick when putting forth your argument?

I'm fine with Tecshare being a prick, what gets to me is how you act like a prick, someone responds in kind, and then you pull the victim card and can immediately discredit anything anyone says because they had the audacity to criticize you (or others apparently). You would disagree with someone reading you the dictionary if they prefaced it with an insult.

I would point out that if the economy were to reopen today, those who choose not to return to work would be in the same situation they are in today -- without a way to earn an income or support their family. They would still receive unemployment benefits (even though they are technically ineligible due to declining work, but I doubt states are checking/care).

If the economy were to open up, people would have the choice to either continue staying home or return to work.

The initial argument to close the economy was not to prevent people from getting infected, it was to cause infections to spread over a longer period of time so the healthcare system can operate at under 100% capacity, and provide care for everyone who might be saved from receiving care. In most of the country, hospitals are sitting empty, and many medical professionals are being furloughed.

The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

Your statement regarding unemployment in parentheses is correct. The conditions for getting unemployment were changed due to corona virus. When you legally can work whether every doctor (and the federal government) is saying DO NOT, your unemployment stops getting paid to you. The legal protections in place now keeping the utility companies from turning off service and all of the other related emergency measures dry up when the emergency measures end. So, while you in theory have a choice whether you go back to work or not, your real choice is go back to work or have your lights turned off. I quickly digress that unemployment is not welfare because someone will bring it up if I dont. A portion of your paycheck is withheld from you to pay you in case you end up needing it. No one is sitting on their asses collecting checks, they're just getting their own money back without interest. Its as much a gift from the government as your tax refund when they overcharge you the rest of the year.

A unified plan keeps people from being tossed out on the street until the conditions are met to safely reopen. The thing that kills me about the predictions being called unreliable is how linear regression works. You get a bunch of statisticians in a room that ask for raw data on how infection travels from people who specialize in the spread of viruses. Check out the yearly flu prediction competitions and you'll see that these same people often end up off by a few thousand cases world wide. What people are finding fault in isn't the models, its that the models cannot predict parameters that aren't given to it. They couldn't predict mandatory social distancing measures before the idea of mandatory social distancing measures were considered. Just imagine how many people would get the flu if we went through these lengths? You'd likely see the ~45 million yearly cases become substantially less, though we don't need to because the real risk is mitigated by the vaccine. The predictions decreasing from the worst case scenario means that we're doing something right. When the predictions go in the opposite direction, that means we're likely doing something wrong.

Keeping the patient load under hospital capacity is incredibly important as you mentioned. I don't know where the hospitals are empty, but I'm glad they aren't having corona issues at this time and I hope it remains that way. I obviously understand that New York is going to be hit harder than Montana, so it absolutely makes sense to have Montana open up on a different date than New York. I'm advocating that we all follow the same federal guidelines regarding conditions for opening and not letting Jim the plumber decide when hes ready to go back to work. It should make sense that Montana being impacted less so than New York would also reach those conditions sooner. I'm in Maryland and we've been hit fairly hard because of interstate travel. A lot of people here travel for work, lots of government employees and such, and thats why we're disproportionately effected despite aggressive measures to slow it down. Maryland and Virginia are working on our states situations jointly because both governors understand that if you lift restrictions in border states, people will travel from one to another and if both aren't ready, we get a few more months of lockdown instead of steady cautious reopening. Georgia for example has a vested interest in also monitoring whats going on in Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, and Tennessee. The goal is that nice steady reopening, not going "Oh shit, we opened a week early, quick we need to contain" mode."    

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus.

Dr.Birx is part of the corona virus task force, she does not have the authority to set any standards for the CDC to follow. The CDC reported statistics are by their own standards as others have posted in this thread. Each state, the CDC, the media, etc has their own method of reporting. For the sake of consistency, I've used the CDC's report when talking about any numbers as they are the most universally trustworthy source we can go for. There are absolutely errors in the numbers, the people who are getting tested are those deemed necessary of getting tested. I got tested and had my results back within 24 hours, other people are just told, yeah sounds like you've got covid, stay home (they aren't counted). On the other hand, there are a lot of unexplained deaths that may or may not be covid related. New York had significantly more people found dead at home than normal (I want to say it was 8x greater than normal but I'll update with the number after finding a reputable source) , we don't know what portion of them died due to the flu, covid, etc. I'll just say its likely that we are under reporting deaths, and under reporting the number of cases. I don't know about the nursing home thing, I'll just say thats awfully shitty.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

And your final point that I was excited to get to. While your conclusion is slightly different than mine, this is the whole point I've been trying to get across. A good solid brief period of lockdown would help out immensely. Every time people ignore the recommendations and get themselves or others sick, they extend the lockdown for everyone. Our choices are a shorter and effective unified effort, or a surprisingly small number of jerks can extend this out for months for us. If we could trust everyone to take personal responsibility, we'd have recommendations, not orders. So now we have to put up with orders instead of recommendations, and the clock starts going again. The goal is to move away from orders and back to recommendations. If we don't move forward with this, we get more strict orders. In Europe they actually enforced stay at home orders, here they're nicely telling us to stay at home unless your travel is essential. It'd be awfully nice if we could avoid that.

*edit* Heres what should be an acceptable source for the NY dying at home thing I mentioned. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829506542/after-deaths-at-home-in-nyc-officials-plan-to-count-many-as-covid-19

[PrimeNumber7]

The prediction models for deaths and needed capacity for hospitals have proven themselves to be unreliable. There appears to be a bias towards making flashy predictions that make headlines. New York state asked for something like 30,000 ventilators based on these models, was given a small fraction of their request, and ended up having more than needed. Cities and States shut down their economies based on these models, but demand for healthcare has not come close to what the models predicted, even after predictions were revised downward by 90%.

When you're dealing with something figure out when something that's growing exponentially is going to end, being off by a factor of 10 isn't some huge miss.  From March 15 till the first week of April the number of Cases and Deaths increased by ~100x, they had run out of hospital rooms , doctors, nurses and PPE, shutting down public transportation is not an option and nobody knows how many of the 9 million residents were still in the city.

Preparing for the worst case scenario isn't wrong just because it didn't happen.  

States were not preparing for worst-case scenarios, they were implementing policies assuming the worst-case scenarios were a reality. Before a hurricane, you can buy up bags of sand, and other supplies, and if the hurricane ends up being a minor storm, you can use those supplies later. Not a huge deal.

With coronavirus, people are being put out of work, and are having their rights stripped. Many people also have increased anxiety due to fear of not being able to provide for their families, and for catching coronavirus. This increased anxiety is going to cause an increase in heart attacks. On the topic of heart attacks, hospital admissions for heart attacks are way down; this is likely a result of people choosing to not go to the hospital. This will inevitably lead to more heart attack deaths. This is a small sample of the real costs of doing too much.

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths.

I'm sure there are some people that tested positive and then got hit by a bus or ODed or something, but in NY (and I think NJ), they stopped testing dead bodies found in their home.  They were estimating 150-200 a day likely Covid deaths were not reported when NY was on that stretch of 700-800 deaths every day for a while.

ODs will probably also go up, as will addictions.

To respond to your comment, there are a lot of people that die every year. Based on a life expectancy of 78.5, about 12k people die every day in the US. Health officials are giving priority to people who are more likely to die (vulnerable groups) for testing, so they are probably catching a higher percentage of people who will soon die who have coronavirus than the population as a whole.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

I don't think people congregating in public negate effects of keeping non essential businesses closed.

Most will hang out with the same people, close to their home.

If you just open everything up there will be tons more interactions among strangers coming from far and wide.  Best case is everything just kind of works out - and that's possible.  Worst case is the economy takes even more damage and takes many times longer to recover than if we just did things slowly and methodically.

Beaches in CA have been very crowded recently, and there are reports that FL beaches were packed with people.

There also doesn't appear to be a link between when lockdowns were put into effect and death rates measured by population.

Based on various antibody studies, it appears likely that most people who have coronavirus will not even know they have it. Around 70% of the population or so need to either be vaccinated or have recovered from the virus in order for it to stop spreading. If we can predict who will be seriously ill with reasonable certainty, people not in these categories should go about their business, and return to work. Some of these people may still die, however, if we don't open up our economy, these people will be more likely to die from the side effects of the lockdown, and if they survive the lockdown, they will likely contract the virus anyway...

edit:
<adding response to SaltySpitoon>

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus. This is driving up the reported number of deaths. The number of deaths in nursing homes is being increased by an executive order from Cuomo that forces nursing homes to admit patients regardless of their status of having coronavirus. People in nursing homes are the most vulnerable to die if they get coronavirus, and Governor Cuomo is forcing nursing homes to receive patients with coronavirus, and prohibiting nursing homes from even asking if a patient has been tested for coronavirus.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

Your statement regarding unemployment in parentheses is correct. The conditions for getting unemployment were changed due to corona virus. When you legally can work whether every doctor (and the federal government) is saying DO NOT, your unemployment stops getting paid to you. The legal protections in place now keeping the utility companies from turning off service and all of the other related emergency measures dry up when the emergency measures end. So, while you in theory have a choice whether you go back to work or not, your real choice is go back to work or have your lights turned off. I quickly digress that unemployment is not welfare because someone will bring it up if I dont. A portion of your paycheck is withheld from you to pay you in case you end up needing it. No one is sitting on their asses collecting checks, they're just getting their own money back without interest. Its as much a gift from the government as your tax refund when they overcharge you the rest of the year.

I am not sure what any of this has to do with people having a choice if they want to return to work. (btw, it is impossible to remove all risks from your life. If you eat, there is a chance you will die from choking on your food, but you would not give up eating because of this).

. The thing that kills me about the predictions being called unreliable is how linear regression works. You get a bunch of statisticians in a room that ask for raw data on how infection travels from people who specialize in the spread of viruses. Check out the yearly flu prediction competitions and you'll see that these same people often end up off by a few thousand cases world wide. What people are finding fault in isn't the models, its that the models cannot predict parameters that aren't given to it. They couldn't predict mandatory social distancing measures before the idea of mandatory social distancing measures were considered.

The models have actually included assumptions that people would be forced to social distance and be forced into lockdowns.

If the models are not reliable, they should not be used to make public policy decisions that force people out of work and that remove their rights. If someone does not have reliable data, or cannot make an accurate prediction with given inputs, they should decline to make a prediction. Frankly, the politicians are making a predetermined decision would get the basis for their predetermined decision from another "expert" who is willing to support the decision.

When the actual values fall well outside of the 95% confidence of a model after multiple revisions, the best course of action is for the people creating the models to find a new line of work.

Just imagine how many people would get the flu if we went through these lengths? You'd likely see the ~45 million yearly cases become substantially less, though we don't need to because the real risk is mitigated by the vaccine. The predictions decreasing from the worst case scenario means that we're doing something right. When the predictions go in the opposite direction, that means we're likely doing something wrong.

I am not sure what you are saying here. The models are taking everything we are doing into account. There were an estimated 56 million flu cases last year -- with a vaccine.

Keeping the patient load under hospital capacity is incredibly important as you mentioned. I don't know where the hospitals are empty, but I'm glad they aren't having corona issues at this time and I hope it remains that way.

Hospitals are empty in the majority of the country, basically everywhere except New York. In New York, most of the 'field hospitals' were not utilized. Several field hospitals were set up throughout the county without tending to a single patient.

Dr. Brix did say in one of the Coronavirus press briefings that anyone who dies *with* coronavirus is counted as dying *from* coronavirus.
<I think this goes here>
*edit* Heres what should be an acceptable source for the NY dying at home thing I mentioned. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829506542/after-deaths-at-home-in-nyc-officials-plan-to-count-many-as-covid-19

Dr.Birx is part of the corona virus task force, she does not have the authority to set any standards for the CDC to follow.

No, but she can explain how the CDC reports its numbers.

Not everyone who dies at home died from the coronavirus. As discussed in my response to twitchy, many people are not seeking medical care for heart attacks (and other things) when they should be.

The number of people who die from coronavirus is being watched closely by most Americans. The number of people who die from heart attacks is not.

As time goes on, more people are ignoring the recommendations from health officials and are congregating in public. So the lockdowns are not even going to slow the spread anymore, they will only keep people out of work.

And your final point that I was excited to get to. While your conclusion is slightly different than mine, this is the whole point I've been trying to get across. A good solid brief period of lockdown would help out immensely. Every time people ignore the recommendations and get themselves or others sick, they extend the lockdown for everyone. Our choices are a shorter and effective unified effort, or a surprisingly small number of jerks can extend this out for months for us. If we could trust everyone to take personal responsibility, we'd have recommendations, not orders. So now we have to put up with orders instead of recommendations, and the clock starts going again. The goal is to move away from orders and back to recommendations. If we don't move forward with this, we get more strict orders. In Europe they actually enforced stay at home orders, here they're nicely telling us to stay at home unless your travel is essential. It'd be awfully nice if we could avoid that.

Based on hospital utilization, it is likely that lockdowns were put into place well before they should have been. As mentioned previously, the original goal was not to control the spread, it was to keep the hospital system from becoming overwhelmed. The lockdowns should have been put in place at a time such that utilization of hospitals (plus surge hospital capacity) would be at something close to 100% not long after the lockdowns were put into place, and remain at those levels until about a week after the lockdowns are lifted.