Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Wekkel]

I don't think that Gold's role has been played out yet. Taking Cypherdoc's essay as a reference point, all this bailout activity has given market players a tremendous faith in TPTB that the system will continue to survive. This belief is clearly visible in the stock market with very levitated prices and bond yields that make old widows cry.

As for gold, captain FIAT just hasn't lost enough control yet for the passengers to freak out. The concept of digital dollars probably has a significant impact on calming the passengers. Since Gold's tremendous run up from 2001 until 2011, the FED is simply winning this round's perception play. But there will be a final round that will be kind to anything not written on a piece of paper (or centrally stored on a computer).

The smartest are usually way ahead of their time. Just be patient and accumulate in the meantime.

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[User705]

if i'm right that the digital dollar has already defeated gold as a form of money, then it doesn't seem too far fetched at all that a significant portion of the $8T gold market can come into Bitcoin.  maybe even most of it.

Agreed. Gold has already failed us. It has failed because it was so easily supplanted by [digital] dollars and the powers behind them.

It failed because it went digital with the ETF invention.  Wonder what effect bitcoin ETF will be?  There may be a few large bitcoin ETF failures in the future as a learning process.

[Erdogan]

if i'm right that the digital dollar has already defeated gold as a form of money, then it doesn't seem too far fetched at all that a significant portion of the $8T gold market can come into Bitcoin.  maybe even most of it.

Cool! Thanks for taking the time and effort for sharing your thesis. The digital dollar also doesn't have any annoying little ledger like the blockchain to get in the way of using the <CTL> P key ad infinitum.

i don't know how any gold bug can even argue with me that this defeat hasn't already happened and in fact has been going on for several decades.

gold has never been able to enforce fair interest rates or stop the Fed from printing.  we don't need to know anything else except for the fact that the price of gold has been languishing.  the only means for it to enforce that discipline would be for its price to skyrocket caused by, or as a result of, the masses fleeing to it as a safe haven.

for gold bugs to argue that we should put our hard earned savings into gold in the face of the events of the last few decades is like the NSA saying to trust it with our personal data despite the fact the Eric Snowden just stole all our data.

This only says that the fiat is disconnected from gold, not that gold is not money.

The paper gold is inflating gold. Paper gold might go down the toilet, real gold still valuable. In fact, gold may have a renaissance with the rise of bitcoin; in a world of private, sound money, some may want to hold gold, and use bitcoin as change. Pay for something with gold, get some bitcoin in exchange, if you collect too much bitcoin to your liking, sweep up the change and buy back a gold coin. The characteristics of gold is sufficiently different from bitcoin that they may be used side by side.

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

Peter Schiff still coming out very strongly against Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfoFlJhcck&list=UUIjuLiLHdFxYtFmWlbTGQRQ

No valid arguments in the whole thing, but it does show his mindset pretty clearly.

If you're still holding these bitcoins, DO NOT GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP. Go to my gold company, Schiff Gold... if you've got 30 or 40 bitcoins you can buy a few ounces of gold. At some point you may not be able to buy a pack of chewing gum with those bitcoins.

[Erdogan]

The situation we have, with hundreds of different fiat money, all sharing the same traits: Easy to expand base, controlled by politicians, tradable between them,  is inherently instable, IMO.  Due to speculation, they will all converge to one, probably USD.

[NewLiberty]

Peter Schiff still coming out very strongly against Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfoFlJhcck&list=UUIjuLiLHdFxYtFmWlbTGQRQ

No valid arguments in the whole thing, but it does show his mindset pretty clearly.

If you're still holding these bitcoins, DO NOT GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP. Go to my gold company, Schiff Gold... if you've got 30 or 40 bitcoins you can buy a few ounces of gold. At some point you may not be able to buy a pack of chewing gum with those bitcoins.

LOL,

Keep in mind who is on the other side of that trade for our "chewing gum money".
(He is)

[devphp]

Peter Schiff still coming out very strongly against Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfoFlJhcck&list=UUIjuLiLHdFxYtFmWlbTGQRQ

No valid arguments in the whole thing, but it does show his mindset pretty clearly.

If you're still holding these bitcoins, DO NOT GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP. Go to my gold company, Schiff Gold... if you've got 30 or 40 bitcoins you can buy a few ounces of gold. At some point you may not be able to buy a pack of chewing gum with those bitcoins.

LOL,

Keep in mind who is on the other side of that trade for our "chewing gum money".
(He is)

Doesn't he use Bitpay to convert bitcoins to fiat?

[shields]

 but even major countries like Germany can't seem to get at their gold stores at the Fed when they want to.

I find this hilarious, as people claim we should have a crypto backed by gold, but it's clear how futile this idea is when even Germany's gold is not backed by gold it would seem. Backing is just a promise that may or may not be honored.

[cypherdoc]

https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/514422905808359424

[cypherdoc]

Peter Schiff still coming out very strongly against Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfoFlJhcck&list=UUIjuLiLHdFxYtFmWlbTGQRQ

No valid arguments in the whole thing, but it does show his mindset pretty clearly.

If you're still holding these bitcoins, DO NOT GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP. Go to my gold company, Schiff Gold... if you've got 30 or 40 bitcoins you can buy a few ounces of gold. At some point you may not be able to buy a pack of chewing gum with those bitcoins.

LOL,

Keep in mind who is on the other side of that trade for our "chewing gum money".
(He is)

Doesn't he use Bitpay to convert bitcoins to fiat?

that's what he says.

the real question is whether you think he's as stupid as he sounds.

[devphp]

https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/514422905808359424

Not sure why Jeff is so concerned about NXT if it's just a scamcoin, one of many others

[cypherdoc]

so yes, the question remains, will BABA top tick the stock mkt?



sell it off baby, sell it off:



and yes, i do think we have an excellent chance at bottom ticking Bitcoin:

[shields]

cypherdoc I think you're maybe even over-analyzing why dollars beat gold as money. I suspect all it took was a new generation born into dollars not backed by anything. I'm middle aged and never was under any illusion fiat was backed by anything as I grew up, I never even saw gold in coin or bullion form in person until I bought a couple coins last year. For me growing up gold as money was something only in history books. Fiat was what I saw, you earned it and you spent it. Since inflation is generally so gradual in 1st world countries you don't notice it, and take it for granted.

In summary, all it takes is for people that used gold as money to die off, and for dollars to be 'good enough' as money for the average person.

[cypherdoc]

cypherdoc I think you're maybe even over-analyzing why dollars beat gold as money. I suspect all it took was a new generation born into dollars not backed by anything. I'm middle aged and never was under any illusion fiat was backed by anything as I grew up, I never even saw gold in coin or bullion form in person until I bought a couple coins last year. For me growing up gold as money was something only in history books. Fiat was what I saw, you earned it and you spent it. Since inflation is generally so gradual in 1st world countries you don't notice it, and take it for granted.

In summary, all it takes is for people that used gold as money to die off, and for dollars to be 'good enough' as money for the average person.

that's clearly a factor as well as even i stated in this thread before.  the reasons are multifactorial no doubt.  this thread is long b/c there are lots of different ideas as to why it is happening and we are just trying to flush them all out in different ways and with different nuance.

i still think digital dollars and the speed with which they can be teleported to a crisis region to prevent massive dollar debt defaults is clearly a reason that enhances stability and recovery.  gold can really only go up when there is instability and fear.  whether you call it foul play, manipulation, or moral hazard doesn't matter.  the main point being that it has defeated any significant advancement in the gold price by stopping any normal gold flows b/c gold is just too slow.

furthermore, i still think this dollar digitalization, or dollar hegemony if you prefer, is causing deflation on a broader scale.  commodities continue to fall in price reflecting declining demand.  the lack of wage increases for the broader population makes things too expensive for most.  

how can Bitcoin help in deflation?  by bringing fairness and mathematics to the table and by removing corruption and a small, elitist group of counterfeiters.

[cypherdoc]

lots of squeeze potential:

[shields]

cypherdoc I think you're maybe even over-analyzing why dollars beat gold as money. I suspect all it took was a new generation born into dollars not backed by anything. I'm middle aged and never was under any illusion fiat was backed by anything as I grew up, I never even saw gold in coin or bullion form in person until I bought a couple coins last year. For me growing up gold as money was something only in history books. Fiat was what I saw, you earned it and you spent it. Since inflation is generally so gradual in 1st world countries you don't notice it, and take it for granted.

In summary, all it takes is for people that used gold as money to die off, and for dollars to be 'good enough' as money for the average person.

that's clearly a factor as well as even i stated in this thread before.  the reasons are multifactorial no doubt.  this thread is long b/c there are lots of different ideas as to why it is happening and we are just trying to flush them all out in different ways and with different nuance.

i still think digital dollars and the speed with which they can be teleported to a crisis region to prevent massive dollar debt defaults is clearly a reason that enhances stability and recovery.  gold can really only go up when there is instability and fear.  whether you call it foul play, manipulation, or moral hazard doesn't matter.  the main point being that it has defeated any significant advancement in the gold price by stopping any normal gold flows b/c gold is just too slow.

furthermore, i still think this dollar digitalization, or dollar hegemony if you prefer, is causing deflation on a broader scale.  commodities continue to fall in price reflecting declining demand.  the lack of wage increases for the broader population makes things too expensive for most.  

how can Bitcoin help in deflation?  by bringing fairness and mathematics to the table and by removing corruption and a small, elitist group of counterfeiters.

Yeah the digital dollar was a significant improvement to 'dollar' technology. Fiat in general tended to gradually improve in other ways too over time  - smaller notes and coins, better counterfeit prevention etc, but the jump to digital - ATM machines, credit cards etc all helped push it further ahead of gold in practicality terms.

An interesting thought about the digital dollar though is that it helps the transition to crytpo. Kids growing up today will be used to digital money, they won't look on digital as a replacement for phsyical just as I didn't look at fiat as a replacement for gold - they'll grow up with the normality that digital balances on a screen are their money. The mental jump from digital fiat to digital cryptos is a small one from there.

[cypherdoc]

cypherdoc I think you're maybe even over-analyzing why dollars beat gold as money. I suspect all it took was a new generation born into dollars not backed by anything. I'm middle aged and never was under any illusion fiat was backed by anything as I grew up, I never even saw gold in coin or bullion form in person until I bought a couple coins last year. For me growing up gold as money was something only in history books. Fiat was what I saw, you earned it and you spent it. Since inflation is generally so gradual in 1st world countries you don't notice it, and take it for granted.

In summary, all it takes is for people that used gold as money to die off, and for dollars to be 'good enough' as money for the average person.

that's clearly a factor as well as even i stated in this thread before.  the reasons are multifactorial no doubt.  this thread is long b/c there are lots of different ideas as to why it is happening and we are just trying to flush them all out in different ways and with different nuance.

i still think digital dollars and the speed with which they can be teleported to a crisis region to prevent massive dollar debt defaults is clearly a reason that enhances stability and recovery.  gold can really only go up when there is instability and fear.  whether you call it foul play, manipulation, or moral hazard doesn't matter.  the main point being that it has defeated any significant advancement in the gold price by stopping any normal gold flows b/c gold is just too slow.

furthermore, i still think this dollar digitalization, or dollar hegemony if you prefer, is causing deflation on a broader scale.  commodities continue to fall in price reflecting declining demand.  the lack of wage increases for the broader population makes things too expensive for most.  

how can Bitcoin help in deflation?  by bringing fairness and mathematics to the table and by removing corruption and a small, elitist group of counterfeiters.

Yeah the digital dollar was a significant improvement to 'dollar' technology. Fiat in general tended to gradually improve in other ways too over time  - smaller notes and coins, better counterfeit prevention etc, but the jump to digital - ATM machines, credit cards etc all helped push it further ahead of gold in practicality terms.

An interesting thought about the digital dollar though is that it helps the transition to crytpo. Kids growing up today will be used to digital money, they won't look on digital as a replacement for phsyical just as I didn't look at fiat as a replacement for gold - they'll grow up with the normality that digital balances on a screen are their money. The mental jump from digital fiat to digital cryptos is a small one from there.

yes, and ApplePay just served to further legitimize that trend.  i find it interesting that they reopened their app store to Bitcoin wallets only 1-2 mo before their announcement.

[cypherdoc]

yay to the US of A!

[Adrian-x]

LOL,

Keep in mind who is on the other side of that trade for our "chewing gum money".
(He is)

Doesn't he use Bitpay to convert bitcoins to fiat?

that's what he says.

the real question is whether you think he's as stupid as he sounds.

It sounds to me like he is desperate to short gold. Not yet bull on Bitcoin.

[shields]

cypherdoc I think you're maybe even over-analyzing why dollars beat gold as money. I suspect all it took was a new generation born into dollars not backed by anything. I'm middle aged and never was under any illusion fiat was backed by anything as I grew up, I never even saw gold in coin or bullion form in person until I bought a couple coins last year. For me growing up gold as money was something only in history books. Fiat was what I saw, you earned it and you spent it. Since inflation is generally so gradual in 1st world countries you don't notice it, and take it for granted.

In summary, all it takes is for people that used gold as money to die off, and for dollars to be 'good enough' as money for the average person.

that's clearly a factor as well as even i stated in this thread before.  the reasons are multifactorial no doubt.  this thread is long b/c there are lots of different ideas as to why it is happening and we are just trying to flush them all out in different ways and with different nuance.

i still think digital dollars and the speed with which they can be teleported to a crisis region to prevent massive dollar debt defaults is clearly a reason that enhances stability and recovery.  gold can really only go up when there is instability and fear.  whether you call it foul play, manipulation, or moral hazard doesn't matter.  the main point being that it has defeated any significant advancement in the gold price by stopping any normal gold flows b/c gold is just too slow.

furthermore, i still think this dollar digitalization, or dollar hegemony if you prefer, is causing deflation on a broader scale.  commodities continue to fall in price reflecting declining demand.  the lack of wage increases for the broader population makes things too expensive for most.  

how can Bitcoin help in deflation?  by bringing fairness and mathematics to the table and by removing corruption and a small, elitist group of counterfeiters.

Yeah the digital dollar was a significant improvement to 'dollar' technology. Fiat in general tended to gradually improve in other ways too over time  - smaller notes and coins, better counterfeit prevention etc, but the jump to digital - ATM machines, credit cards etc all helped push it further ahead of gold in practicality terms.

An interesting thought about the digital dollar though is that it helps the transition to crytpo. Kids growing up today will be used to digital money, they won't look on digital as a replacement for phsyical just as I didn't look at fiat as a replacement for gold - they'll grow up with the normality that digital balances on a screen are their money. The mental jump from digital fiat to digital cryptos is a small one from there.

yes, and ApplePay just served to further legitimize that trend.  i find it interesting that they reopened their app store to Bitcoin wallets only 1-2 mo before their announcement.

They would not have released ApplePay if they did not think it could compete with and beat Bitcoin. And if they think that, then they feel that the wallet apps on the phone are not a threat to their ApplePay - it was bad PR and it was turning some of their users away, I guess they feel the trade off of allowing them is worth it.