Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[devphp]

You're attempting to equate POW & POS by saying they are both just code.

Wrong. POW involves a huge network of miners that have paid blood, sweat, tears, and money to build and maintain.  You can't replace that.

Paying blood, sweat, tears and money doesn't guarantee anything, much less profits. That is still irrelevant to how it'd look different in the eyes of population who are charged more for less, while they could pay less to get more. By getting more I mean a larger share of a different crypto currency that does just the same, and some of those do much more too.

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[devphp]

We don't need to discuss that masters of Bitcoin are two-three biggest mining pools, do we? While in NXT over 300 individual accounts successfully generate blocks. Well, who is more centralized?

We don't, because it doesn't matter.

In a PoW system, if the three largest mining miners decide to misbehave it's at least possible in principle for somebody else to build out more hashing power and compete with them. The miners can not block competition via any other method than expending more real opportunity cost to do so.

In a PoS system, if the majority of the stakeholders decide to misbehave then the system is fucked. Stakeholders are insulated from competition because they only lose stake if they choose to sell their coins to their competitors.

In a PoW system, if a cartel forms it's an annoyance.

PoS systems are inherently designed to form and protect cartels.

It's hard to get 2 people to agree with each other. It's impossible to get a few hundred people to agree to collude especially when their financial future depends on proper functioning of the network. Try to get a few people to agree to shoot themselves in the foot, I'd like to see you do that

[justusranvier]

Try to get a few people to agree to shoot themselves in the foot, I'd like to see you do that

Have you been in a coma since 2007?

[devphp]

This conversation is meaningless. As always.

[cypherdoc]

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

[devphp]

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Yeah, I feel your pain. I wasn't there either when they were doing the IPO. Well, the world moves on whether it's fair to us or not. It's not fair that I wasn't there mining Bitcoins in 2009-2013 either. Just like 99.999% other people.

[LiQio]

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

[smoothie]

Why does it have to be us vs them? Why must the crypto space be so divided? I am not a "pos guy". I simply see some value and utility in a well designed system and want to share that with others, just as I do with bitcoin.

Fiat is the enemy here.

Fiat is not the enemy.

Bad money is the enemy.

In terms of its trust model PoS is more similar to fiat money than it is similar to Bitcoin.

Fiat money today = bad money.

Debt based. End of story.

[cypherdoc]

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

[devphp]

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

See, if you go into the unfairness arguement, this all sounds ridiculous. Where do ideas of fairness come from anyway? Are you guys trying to build communism? Well, you have to share your thousands of Bitcoins then with other 7 bln. people. Equally. If you don't stop talking about fairness, this just looks plain stupid.

[LiQio]

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

So are PoS coin IPOs - open to anyone who actually do the work of reading/investigating/investing.
And the later you come the harder/more expensive it gets. Again same for both system, price for later entry generally depending on the success.

[cypherdoc]

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 

[devphp]

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 

That's risk taking. Risk taking should be rewarded, nobody argues with that. However, you argue that other people taking risk, outside of Bitcoin system, somehow don't deserve to be rewarded. How is that not hypocritical?

[cypherdoc]

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 

That's risk taking. Risk taking should be rewarded, nobody argues with that. However, you argue that other people taking risk, outside of Bitcoin system, somehow don't deserve to be rewarded. How is that not hypocritical?

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

[devphp]

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

First of all, I am not inflating anything, I am a user.

Second, if you can skip the work part and achieve the same and even much more, why do you need the work part? Just for the sake of work? Why don't people still do all the manual work at this age but instead use devices to make their life easier? Not to mention, this 'work' you're referring to is not sustainable long term, if it keeps growing at the rate it is growing, soon half the world will be working to produce ASICs and generate electricity for mining Bitcoin. Which is of course crazy and not gonna happen, something's gotta give sooner or later.

[LiQio]

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

I believe burning electricity and hard work were not Satoshis ideas.
PoW was suggested mainly as a solution to double spending. Now other ("improved") ideas are available.
Work itself doesn't give any value to objects.
Frankly I don't care if a gold nugget was found in my garden or if it had to be dug up from 1000 feet - same value.

[cypherdoc]

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

First of all, I am not inflating anything, I am a user.

Second, if you can skip the work part and achieve the same and even much more, why do you need the work part? Just for the sake of work? Why don't people still do all the manual work at this age but instead use devices to make their life easier? Not to mention, this 'work' you're referring to is not sustainable long term, if it keeps growing at the rate it is growing, soon half the world will be working to produce ASICs and generate electricity for mining Bitcoin. Which is of course crazy and not gonna happen, something's gotta give sooner or later.

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks. They'd just rather print money to try and attack Bitcoin I'd imagine.  Sorta sounds like POS. Attacks have to be expensive.

Stakeholder collusion would be very bad. 

[devphp]

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks.

It's not a sustainable path, it can go on for some time, but not forever. They are not gonna produce ASICs to outrun miners, don't worry. What will happen most likely is the electricity fees will be raised dramatically for Bitcoin mining by governments to drive them out of business. In the interests of security of other electricity users. And that is one of major flaws of Bitcoin, it depends on scarce natural resources, that others are in competition for.

[cbeast]

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks.

It's not a sustainable path, it can go on for some time, but not forever. They are not gonna produce ASICs to outrun miners, don't worry. What will happen most likely is the electricity fees will be raised dramatically for Bitcoin mining by governments to drive them out of business. In the interests of security of other electricity users. And that is one of major flaws of Bitcoin, it depends on scarce natural resources, that others are in competition for.

Raising energy prices would hurt everyone. It's all relative.

[cypherdoc]

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks.

It's not a sustainable path, it can go on for some time, but not forever. They are not gonna produce ASICs to outrun miners, don't worry. What will happen most likely is the electricity fees will be raised dramatically for Bitcoin mining by governments to drive them out of business. In the interests of security of other electricity users. And that is one of major flaws of Bitcoin, it depends on scarce natural resources, that others are in competition for.

Not if it replaces significant parts of the banking system.

http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/