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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804444 times)
klee
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September 16, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
 #12141

Mining tends to centralisation.

PoS tends to centralisation.

Everything that can be CENTRALISED, will be centralised - the opposite holds true too.

It is a never ending battle - technology is bringing us closer to freedom and enslavement at the same time.

Stop arguing which is more decentralised, fair, anti gvt etc.

The point is our personal stance.

I don't see a problem if 1000 people decide to make exchanges between them based on shit (Proof of Shit), debt, gold or PoW.

Important thing is to decide what kind of power distribution they want.

Technology is a weapon but it can be used by all sides... (just wait to see a gvt based PoW and what ASICS will mine in that case...I would mine them instead of BTC for sure!)

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September 16, 2014, 09:03:53 AM
 #12142

Well, both PoW and PoS models have that under control.
PoS is in no way comparable to PoW and it's misleading and deceptive to market as such.

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf


The problems he mentions are being solved:
http://www.nxtcommunity.org/nxt-whitepaper

PoW has its own problems, like mining centralization. Both PoW and PoS have their advantages and disadvantages.

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jaberwock
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September 16, 2014, 09:12:47 AM
 #12143

Bitcoin is going down.

Gold is not fallling.

Upside down world.
manfred
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September 16, 2014, 09:48:12 AM
 #12144

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.   
klee
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September 16, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
 #12145

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.   
In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

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hdbuck
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September 16, 2014, 10:58:39 AM
 #12146

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.  
In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.
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September 16, 2014, 11:56:24 AM
 #12147



I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

Umm...KNC already has 20nm miners.


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marcus_of_augustus
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September 16, 2014, 12:15:45 PM
 #12148



I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

Umm...KNC already has 20nm miners.



good, we should hit that wall any day now then ... and materials, labour and energy costs kick in the hardest

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September 16, 2014, 01:36:05 PM
 #12149

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.  
In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

More centralization in the mining.

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HeliKopterBen
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September 16, 2014, 01:40:06 PM
 #12150

I personally think bitshares x has a better product than nxt with a truly decentralized AND collateralized market.  I believe this achievement is being overlooked because this is the first time in human history that any asset on earth can be traded with actual collateral backing up the trade (btsx) and enforced automatically by an algorithm instead of people.  This is NOT an IOU for an asset, which has been the only option in markets until now.  Also, the DPOS model will be great if it stands the test of time because of the 10s confirmation times. 

Bitcoin and nxt have both been tested with bailouts/qe/inflation with Mt gox and bter repectively and both have passed the test.  The question remains; is work truly required to give a money it's value?  This is more of a socionomic question and a bit harder to predict but I don't think so.  I believe we will see 3 to 5 dominant chains emerge with Bitcoin being the primary POW, or digital gold.  Other chains will provide other uses but their associated currencies will act as money in many cases.  The alternative is for Bitcoin to survive as the sole form of money with open transactions, side chains, or some type of m of n oracle system to provide collateralized markets with Bitcoin being collateral. 

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
klee
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September 16, 2014, 01:43:11 PM
 #12151

I personally think bitshares x has a better product than nxt with a truly decentralized AND collateralized market.  I believe this achievement is being overlooked because this is the first time in human history that any asset on earth can be traded with actual collateral backing up the trade (btsx) and enforced automatically by an algorithm instead of people.  This is NOT an IOU for an asset, which has been the only option in markets until now.  Also, the DPOS model will be great if it stands the test of time because of the 10s confirmation times. 

Bitcoin and nxt have both been tested with bailouts/qe/inflation with Mt gox and bter repectively and both have passed the test.  The question remains; is work truly required to give a money it's value?  This is more of a socionomic question and a bit harder to predict but I don't think so.  I believe we will see 3 to 5 dominant chains emerge with Bitcoin being the primary POW, or digital gold.  Other chains will provide other uses but their associated currencies will act as money in many cases.  The alternative is for Bitcoin to survive as the sole form of money with open transactions, side chains, or some type of m of n oracle system to provide collateralized markets with Bitcoin being collateral. 
I like your thoughts, I will stalk you to see on what are you up to in this forum!  Cool

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September 16, 2014, 01:52:36 PM
 #12152

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-gold-or-both-cm391244
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September 16, 2014, 01:52:39 PM
 #12153

Pile of Shit coins can not go anywhere because you can not stop progress. Daily superior technology hits the market endlessly diluting the market. Software is cheap and easy to replace starting a new chain is no effort. It is akin to a parallel system, start again and again.
With Bitcoin progress is made too with new better miners hitting the market the technology is hardware based the chain stays the same, akin to a serial system keep building atop of the foundation.  
In software we tend to 'lock in' (excellent analysis here: http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Not-Gadget-Manifesto/dp/0307389979) but on the other hand first mover advantage is highly overestimated too (netscape, myspace, etc).

It is difficult to know the result because Bitcoin is both asset/currency/commodity/store of value etc AND software.

I guess we will learn sooner or later!

I agree but bitcoin software is about to hit the hardware limit regarding mining devices. Best Chips are 28nm so far and there is room for 22nm but it wont be as profitable beyond those nodes (intel just released their 14nm chips). My guess is that quantity should take on from there, tappering the network's overall power (hashrate). What will be the effect on btc price is puzzeling.

More centralization in the mining.

Cue the integrated asic mining chip in personal computers as some premium feature. Cheesy

@hunyadi arf my bad but i guess my point is still valid, not going to argue for 2nm ^^ The development & running cost for sub20 nm is unlikely to ever ROI. Could be beautiful but not very scalable. Maybe in 10 years when intel releases their 7nm chip and the technology had matured enough?!
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September 16, 2014, 02:14:48 PM
 #12154

Bitcoin is going down.

Gold is not fallling.

Upside down world.

Nasty ass reversal:

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September 16, 2014, 02:30:28 PM
 #12155

we got a rejection going so far off ceiling resistance:

manfred
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September 16, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
 #12156

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29221372
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September 16, 2014, 03:29:17 PM
 #12157


Cue the integrated asic mining chip in personal computers as some premium feature. Cheesy

@hunyadi arf my bad but i guess my point is still valid, not going to argue for 2nm ^^ The development & running cost for sub20 nm is unlikely to ever ROI. Could be beautiful but not very scalable. Maybe in 10 years when intel releases their 7nm chip and the technology had matured enough?!

Yes, I think 20nm will be the best chip in bitcoin mining for many years to come. Also, there wasn't even very big improvement in the performance compared to 28nm.


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September 16, 2014, 04:13:38 PM
 #12158


Cue the integrated asic mining chip in personal computers as some premium feature. Cheesy

@hunyadi arf my bad but i guess my point is still valid, not going to argue for 2nm ^^ The development & running cost for sub20 nm is unlikely to ever ROI. Could be beautiful but not very scalable. Maybe in 10 years when intel releases their 7nm chip and the technology had matured enough?!

Yes, I think 20nm will be the best chip in bitcoin mining for many years to come. Also, there wasn't even very big improvement in the performance compared to 28nm.



once the chip set size becomes standardized, at least for a while, the prices for miners should come down.
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September 16, 2014, 04:15:21 PM
 #12159

the Nash Equilibrium continues to equilibrate:

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September 16, 2014, 04:16:15 PM
 #12160


Cue the integrated asic mining chip in personal computers as some premium feature. Cheesy

@hunyadi arf my bad but i guess my point is still valid, not going to argue for 2nm ^^ The development & running cost for sub20 nm is unlikely to ever ROI. Could be beautiful but not very scalable. Maybe in 10 years when intel releases their 7nm chip and the technology had matured enough?!

Yes, I think 20nm will be the best chip in bitcoin mining for many years to come. Also, there wasn't even very big improvement in the performance compared to 28nm.



once the chip set size becomes standardized, at least for a while, the prices for miners should come down.

Exactly.  Once they stop pushing to newer processes, they quit spending huge development effort on each run and just start rolling out the proven design.  Marginal cost on just the chip should be around $5, but with the first few generations, they had to pay for development costs in one run.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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