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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804008 times)
User705
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September 18, 2014, 04:59:08 AM
 #12301


In a perfect pure ideal honest world, NXT should reset the chain and develop fully in the open, with provable builds and a better early stake allocation that pays attention to the Central Banker Controls The Timeline Problem.  More honest projects these days run a test chain for months, and then launch once most problems are hammered out, and constructive criticism from the tech community has been incorporated.

Is this post for real? You want to reset the blockchain of a coin with 40million market cap that has been running on mainnet without problems for months?

Yes.  Quite serious.

Proof-of-Stake has serious problems, that must be mitigated.  Stakeholders in PoS control consensus.  That means they control what transactions may, or may not, be permitted into the chain.  They are the 100% gatekeepers to the chain.

If you have a tiny initial distribution -- just 8 people holding 40% of a certain coin for example, just 64 people getting the rest -- then the central bankers are in place, for life.  It is screwed from the start (unless, against their economic interests, the major stakeholders divest their stakes "fairly").

Proof-Of-Stake is fundamentally not permissionless.  In contrast, building a mining ASIC might be expensive, but it is doable to anyone in the world with a computer engineering background, and some money.  You don't need permission from existing bitcoin holders, to make more bitcoin.

1st nothing can be 100% fair.  Thats idiotic.  
2nd check out the threads on here when price was well above $1000.  People buying castles and lamborghinis.  The stakes will divest themselves.  No wealthy person holds the majority of their wealth in cash.  
3rd and this is more of your expertise but are you saying that in pure PoS holding 40% somehow can prevent every single transaction those 40% don't want forever.  I could be wrong but that doesn't sound right.  Eventually even the smallest stake has odds to create a block so just a few % should be sufficient to eventually get transactions included in the chain.  May take a longer time but it's not 100% prevented from doing so.
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Even in the event that an attacker gains more than 50% of the network's computational power, only transactions sent by the attacker could be reversed or double-spent. The network would not be destroyed.
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September 18, 2014, 05:21:44 AM
 #12302

Here is a gold strategy for you... to prove gata is/was always right in the first place btw.  Buy Gold on NY close, Sell Gold on NY Open. Go ahead and test it out long term.

Hey Jeff G. How about DPOS, you think its a better form of POS?
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September 18, 2014, 05:50:16 AM
 #12303

What is necessary, for NXT or any other crypto-finance software, is to prove independent reproducibility.

The next step is to proactively have developers and community members cross-check each other, to make sure the build produced is the same for all.

This helps ensure that the release manager is not under duress, unknowingly infected with malware, or corrupt.  No security solution is perfect, but it raises the bar significantly when multiple parties verify the build.

You should never trust just one person to produce release binaries, in any crypto-finance project.  That's called a Single Point of Failure, and it is easy to attack such a narrow victim vector.




Jeff, let me ask you something:

On twitter you were emotionally "rude" and "harsh" with NXT. Now, here I see a perfectly balanced post with argumented reasons. Why? Why these "SCAMCOIN", "I am done with your SCAM", "Nice scam you are running here" etc on public (twitter), and this "polite" post in "private" (BTT)? Are you going to blame the 140characters limitation? Or are you hiding an agenda against NXT?


Because here he is speaking with an intelligent audience, on Twitter he is talking to anyone dumb enough to follow him.
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September 18, 2014, 06:10:15 AM
 #12304


 i'd bet just about every serious gold investor has become sick hearing about Bitcoin.
I'm not. There's no reason not to own both if you dislike / don't have faith in the current financial system.

As a gold investor it would be silly to disregard bitcoin. As a investor in bitcoin the same could be said. Once the petro-dollar system comes un-done a tsunami of value is going to shift..somewhere.
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September 18, 2014, 06:54:03 AM
 #12305


 i'd bet just about every serious gold investor has become sick hearing about Bitcoin.
I'm not. There's no reason not to own both if you dislike / don't have faith in the current financial system.

As a gold investor it would be silly to disregard bitcoin. As a investor in bitcoin the same could be said. Once the petro-dollar system comes un-done a tsunami of value is going to shift..somewhere.

The value of bitcoin is not so contingent on the failure of anything else.  It is just better money.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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September 18, 2014, 06:59:23 AM
 #12306

I remember when 1 bitcoin was worth more then 1 ounce of gold crazy times.

just briefly.  i remember sitting there watching Bitcoin ascend to meet gold.  what a thrill.  it was the culmination of 2.5 yrs of posting about it.  if there was one thing that i could point to that capped the rally @1200 back in Dec it was Satoshi daring to touch the face of gold.  traders immediately sold it off and took profits as the once considered impossible occurred.  we've had a wicked retrace since then but i'm convinced the story is not over and that we will go back up and touch it again.

IIRC when bitcoin=gold ounce was the peak. Cypherdoc, do you think that confirms there is a strong relationship between gold and btc? 

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September 18, 2014, 07:26:14 AM
 #12307

is a strong relationship between gold and btc? 

0.691
Correlated

https://www.kimonolabs.com/bitcoin/correlator
marcus_of_augustus
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September 18, 2014, 07:46:47 AM
 #12308


so basically none

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September 18, 2014, 08:39:41 AM
 #12309

i'll be darned.  is Apple making an effort?:

“Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data,” Apple said on its Web site. “So it’s not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/2014/09/17/2612af58-3ed2-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html

Good move. I have to reconsider my anti Apple stance.
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September 18, 2014, 01:48:50 PM
 #12310

i'll be darned.  is Apple making an effort?:

“Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data,” Apple said on its Web site. “So it’s not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/2014/09/17/2612af58-3ed2-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html

Good move. I have to reconsider my anti Apple stance.
The Apple OS is closed source: how can you be sure that what Apple says it's true?

Articoli bitcoin: Il portico dipinto
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September 18, 2014, 01:51:17 PM
 #12311

i'll be darned.  is Apple making an effort?:

“Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data,” Apple said on its Web site. “So it’s not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/2014/09/17/2612af58-3ed2-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html

Good move. I have to reconsider my anti Apple stance.
The Apple OS is closed source: how can you be sure that what Apple says it's true?

Good question.
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September 18, 2014, 01:55:31 PM
 #12312


Maybe you are not understanding what correlation is or what it means?

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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September 18, 2014, 03:18:07 PM
 #12313

James D'Angelo on volatility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NqP1CNK8XI
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September 18, 2014, 03:46:52 PM
 #12314

I remember when 1 bitcoin was worth more then 1 ounce of gold crazy times.

just briefly.  i remember sitting there watching Bitcoin ascend to meet gold.  what a thrill.  it was the culmination of 2.5 yrs of posting about it.  if there was one thing that i could point to that capped the rally @1200 back in Dec it was Satoshi daring to touch the face of gold.  traders immediately sold it off and took profits as the once considered impossible occurred.  we've had a wicked retrace since then but i'm convinced the story is not over and that we will go back up and touch it again.

IIRC when bitcoin=gold ounce was the peak. Cypherdoc, do you think that confirms there is a strong relationship between gold and btc?  

from a conceptual standpoint, Satoshi designed Bitcoin to be a digital form of gold.  he talks about this in some of his earlier writings.  he also used the term "mining" which is a direct reference to gold mining.  his genesis block indicates a sophisticated understanding of fiat bailouts and the moral hazards related to such.  the whole design of decentralization, key to Bitcoin's success, is an attempt to avoid gvt interference and censorship, something gold bugs have always been concerned about.  Satoshi's insight came after many decades of various digital cash forerunners.  the fixed supply of BTC is a fundamental concept behind sound money and a throwback to the days before we had central banks.  when i first started studying about Bitcoin in Jan 2011, i saw the relationship immediately.  my many years of gold and silver hoarding was critical to understanding what he had invented.  so yes, i think there is a conceptual relationship btwn Bitcoin and gold designed from the beginning by Satoshi himself.

yes, i do think the fact that Bitcoin touched the gold price back in Dec is symbolic and will be retested.

your question really is, what is the price relationship going to be long term?   i think it's going to be inverse.  but only over the long term as we've seen since gold's top and Bitcoins low in 2011.

obviously, under most other shorter term time frames you won't see it b/c there is still considerable doubt and skepticism to the idea which causes plenty of divergences to the inverse relationship seen in the price data.  having actually monitored the news and price flow closely in this arena since January 2011, i think i will be right in the long run despite the recent Bitcoin bearishness.  

but it's also possible my judgment is clouded given my portfolio positioning.  all i can do is continue to present my case here in the form of links, references, charts, graphs, statistics, theoretical arguments, etc, as i have done since Gold: I Smell a Trap
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September 18, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
 #12315

It sounds very religiously...
Why should be only ONE Bitcoin/Digital Gold ??
you can not guarantee that some other form of cryptomoney won't superceed BTC...


Bitcoin is only good for filling of forex reserves of Central Banks...
Very ironically  Shocked
As money it will fail, because it's supply is finite.
World's economy will grow with time, so ( very moderately ) MUST grow supply of real digital money.  Roll Eyes

Finite supply of BTC will lead to deflationary spirals and to underinvestment.... Wink

https://www.youtube.com/user/artpodgotovka/videos
Shocked ни в коем случае не смотрите это  !!! Shocked
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September 18, 2014, 04:15:48 PM
 #12316


As money it will fail, because it's supply is finite.
World's economy will grow with time, so ( very moderately ) MUST grow supply of real digital money.  Roll Eyes

Finite supply of BTC will lead to deflationary spirals and to underinvestment.... Wink

lol
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September 18, 2014, 05:11:44 PM
 #12317

Investopedia: What Is Bitcoin's Intrinsic Value?

Quote
Our total estimate for global value of mediums of exchange and stores of value thus comes to 72.1 trillion US dollars.  If bitcoin were to achieve 15% of this valuation, its market capitalization in today's money would be 10.8 trillion US dollars.  With 21 million bitcoin in circulation, that would put the price of 1 bitcoin at $514,000.  That would be over 1,000 times the current price.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/091814/what-bitcoins-intrinsic-value.asp

Grin Cheesy
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September 18, 2014, 05:13:47 PM
 #12318

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle Cheesy
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September 18, 2014, 05:21:36 PM
 #12319

I remember when 1 bitcoin was worth more then 1 ounce of gold crazy times.

just briefly.  i remember sitting there watching Bitcoin ascend to meet gold.  what a thrill.  it was the culmination of 2.5 yrs of posting about it.  if there was one thing that i could point to that capped the rally @1200 back in Dec it was Satoshi daring to touch the face of gold.  traders immediately sold it off and took profits as the once considered impossible occurred.  we've had a wicked retrace since then but i'm convinced the story is not over and that we will go back up and touch it again.

IIRC when bitcoin=gold ounce was the peak. Cypherdoc, do you think that confirms there is a strong relationship between gold and btc?  

from a conceptual standpoint, Satoshi designed Bitcoin to be a digital form of gold.  he talks about this in some of his earlier writings.  he also used the term "mining" which is a direct reference to gold mining.  his genesis block indicates a sophisticated understanding of fiat bailouts and the moral hazards related to such.  the whole design of decentralization, key to Bitcoin's success, is an attempt to avoid gvt interference and censorship, something gold bugs have always been concerned about.  Satoshi's insight came after many decades of various digital cash forerunners.  the fixed supply of BTC is a fundamental concept behind sound money and a throwback to the days before we had central banks.  when i first started studying about Bitcoin in Jan 2011, i saw the relationship immediately.  my many years of gold and silver hoarding was critical to understanding what he had invented.  so yes, i think there is a conceptual relationship btwn Bitcoin and gold designed from the beginning by Satoshi himself.

yes, i do think the fact that Bitcoin touched the gold price back in Dec is symbolic and will be retested.

your question really is, what is the price relationship going to be long term?   i think it's going to be inverse.  but only over the long term as we've seen since gold's top and Bitcoins low in 2011.

obviously, under most other shorter term time frames you won't see it b/c there is still considerable doubt and skepticism to the idea which causes plenty of divergences to the inverse relationship seen in the price data.  having actually monitored the news and price flow closely in this arena since January 2011, i think i will be right in the long run despite the recent Bitcoin bearishness.  

but it's also possible my judgment is clouded given my portfolio positioning.  all i can do is continue to present my case here in the form of links, references, charts, graphs, statistics, theoretical arguments, etc, as i have done since Gold: I Smell a Trap

That's what I thought. Very nice answer, thank you very much. This thread is actually real eye opener if you pay attention.  Smiley

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September 18, 2014, 05:43:46 PM
 #12320

gold up, btc down 70% ytd and counting lol

btc will be a blip in history in 50 yrs, gold will be as good as gold 1000 yrs from now.
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