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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2008966 times)
_mr_e
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September 17, 2014, 02:11:55 PM
 #12221

Also one of the benefits of nxt is the that the code is so simple to read and update, while the community is very anarchic and believers in choice and freedom that just about any person could have easily made that modification and released a fork. We didn't need JL to offer it. This is a true benefit of nxt, not something that should destroy the basis for the entire project as your suggesting.

As I understand it, JL is a  core dev right?  He's probably also a major stakeholder. He's a leader and has special code writing privileges I'd reckon. He should have been more responsible.

So what are you looking for exactly? "Ok boys, JL wasn't responsible. Therefore the whole project is a farce and a sham and we should just shut the whole thing down and pretend it never existed. Move along, nothing to see here."?

People make mistakes and do what they think is right in time pressure situations. What's done is done. The project is still up and running, the codebase is still solid, the value is increasing after a long serious of blows that have all been survived, the community is now stronger and have a deeper sense of their place in this ecosystem, and some of the strongest innovations I have seen in the space are right around the corner. It's time to move on my friend.
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ShroomsKit_Disgrace
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September 17, 2014, 03:25:57 PM
 #12222

I must LOL at the conversation brought by cipherdoc here.  Are you trying to say something at all or are you doing it for the sake of trolling?
I expected higher standards from a "legendary" user of the glorious Bitcointalk Forum.

At least, yesterday's Garzik posts agains NXT had some (tiny) valid points.
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September 17, 2014, 03:36:59 PM
 #12223

incredibly relentless.  no problems here:

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September 17, 2014, 03:40:50 PM
 #12224

going to challenge the old high:

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September 17, 2014, 04:00:40 PM
 #12225

I must LOL at the conversation brought by cipherdoc here.  Are you trying to say something at all or are you doing it for the sake of trolling?
I expected higher standards from a "legendary" user of the glorious Bitcointalk Forum.

At least, yesterday's Garzik posts agains NXT had some (tiny) valid points.


nice job attacking the messengers and ignoring the messages!
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September 17, 2014, 04:22:46 PM
 #12226

Also one of the benefits of nxt is the that the code is so simple to read and update, while the community is very anarchic and believers in choice and freedom that just about any person could have easily made that modification and released a fork. We didn't need JL to offer it. This is a true benefit of nxt, not something that should destroy the basis for the entire project as your suggesting.

As I understand it, JL is a  core dev right?  He's probably also a major stakeholder. He's a leader and has special code writing privileges I'd reckon. He should have been more responsible.
How?
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September 17, 2014, 04:31:53 PM
 #12227

Also one of the benefits of nxt is the that the code is so simple to read and update, while the community is very anarchic and believers in choice and freedom that just about any person could have easily made that modification and released a fork. We didn't need JL to offer it. This is a true benefit of nxt, not something that should destroy the basis for the entire project as your suggesting.

As I understand it, JL is a  core dev right?  He's probably also a major stakeholder. He's a leader and has special code writing privileges I'd reckon. He should have been more responsible.
How?

He could start by removing himself as the person responsible for releases through a system of deterministic builds and necessitating a form of developer consensus for official releases.  Even if you trust him, he could be put under duress.  He has enabled independent developers to fork snapshots of the code, but you need live repositories to have time to vet the code before release as well as to enable others to contribute their improvements back more easily.  Yes, there are some extremist opinions flying around here, but there are some very large holes in the security model of the development process that would be addressed by a responsible leader of a crypto currency platform.

Edit: stumbling around http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Nxt_Wiki I see this referring to PoS:
Quote
The Proof-of-Stake algorithm is efficient enough to run on smartphones and small devices like the Raspberry Pi platform. In addition, this method effectively removes a large security risk inherent in most other coins: the issue of a 51% attack and many of the other vulnerabilities inherent to Proof-of-Work coins are gone.

51% attack isn't gone, it just moves from requiring scarce natural resources to requiring scarce tokens.  Neither is easy to come by.  My real problem with PoS though is that transaction fees are awarded to those who already have high stake rather than those who are providing hardware.  Also, if they think a Raspberry Pi will be able to handle the throughput needed to scale to be bigger than bitcoin, they are crazy.  Otherwise, they are simply dishonest.  Granted, the wiki is probably not JL's responsibility, but it is indicative of the level of quality and attention to detail in the community as a whole, which is more damning than the failure of any one person.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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cypherdoc
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September 17, 2014, 04:32:46 PM
 #12228

Also one of the benefits of nxt is the that the code is so simple to read and update, while the community is very anarchic and believers in choice and freedom that just about any person could have easily made that modification and released a fork. We didn't need JL to offer it. This is a true benefit of nxt, not something that should destroy the basis for the entire project as your suggesting.

As I understand it, JL is a  core dev right?  He's probably also a major stakeholder. He's a leader and has special code writing privileges I'd reckon. He should have been more responsible.
How?

so what is this "pressure" every pos guy is talking about here?  is it related to the fear that the hacker would dump the NXT onto the open mkt and crash the price?  that, by itself, tells you that the stakeholders are terrified of open mkt price discovery.  Bitcoin doesn't care about those things and is happy to suffer from a price crash when those things happen as the community understands the sanctity of what a digital currency is all about.  and it's not roll backs.

i don't need to repeat myself but if you read what i wrote, JL could've avoided the wasted time and effort into making the patch if he'd taken the time to act as a core dev and leader should do and measure the consensus of the NXT community.  for outsiders like me looking in, it makes me question the economic understanding of those in charge.  like Amir says, the software can be a reflection of the political stance of its developer.

regardless, i don't want to beat this to death.  if the NXT supporters are happy with their actions, so be it.  i just don't think it was handled correctly.
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September 17, 2014, 04:47:37 PM
 #12229

more deflationary destruction out of Japan:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-17/abenomics-crushes-sony-electronics-giant-forced-cancel-dividend-first-time-ever

_mr_e
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September 17, 2014, 04:58:40 PM
 #12230

Also one of the benefits of nxt is the that the code is so simple to read and update, while the community is very anarchic and believers in choice and freedom that just about any person could have easily made that modification and released a fork. We didn't need JL to offer it. This is a true benefit of nxt, not something that should destroy the basis for the entire project as your suggesting.

As I understand it, JL is a  core dev right?  He's probably also a major stakeholder. He's a leader and has special code writing privileges I'd reckon. He should have been more responsible.
How?

so what is this "pressure" every pos guy is talking about here?  is it related to the fear that the hacker would dump the NXT onto the open mkt and crash the price?  that, by itself, tells you that the stakeholders are terrified of open mkt price discovery.  Bitcoin doesn't care about those things and is happy to suffer from a price crash when those things happen as the community understands the sanctity of what a digital currency is all about.  and it's not roll backs.

i don't need to repeat myself but if you read what i wrote, JL could've avoided the wasted time and effort into making the patch if he'd taken the time to act as a core dev and leader should do and measure the consensus of the NXT community.  for outsiders like me looking in, it makes me question the economic understanding of those in charge.  like Amir says, the software can be a reflection of the political stance of its developer.

regardless, i don't want to beat this to death.  if the NXT supporters are happy with their actions, so be it.  i just don't think it was handled correctly.

I think we'll just need to agree to disagree and let the system speak for itself over the next few months.

And I was more worried that the type of people that kept their nxt on an exchange were the exact type of smaller fish that we have been trying to distribute nxt too. This would have destroyed the accounts of every day users and left the whales to scoop up cheaply dumped coins - Greatly hurting nxt for a long time much like the gox hacks hurt bitcoin. Which is why I am very pleased with how it turned out, and hopefully tought users a lesson about keeping things on exchanges. Especially when nxt has already done away with the centralized exchange with the multigateway.
Damelon
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September 17, 2014, 05:01:28 PM
 #12231

so what is this "pressure" every pos guy is talking about here?  is it related to the fear that the hacker would dump the NXT onto the open mkt and crash the price?  that, by itself, tells you that the stakeholders are terrified of open mkt price discovery.  Bitcoin doesn't care about those things and is happy to suffer from a price crash when those things happen as the community understands the sanctity of what a digital currency is all about.  and it's not roll backs.

i don't need to repeat myself but if you read what i wrote, JL could've avoided the wasted time and effort into making the patch if he'd taken the time to act as a core dev and leader should do and measure the consensus of the NXT community.  for outsiders like me looking in, it makes me question the economic understanding of those in charge.  like Amir says, the software can be a reflection of the political stance of its developer.

regardless, i don't want to beat this to death.  if the NXT supporters are happy with their actions, so be it.  i just don't think it was handled correctly.

Also my last post on the subject, again much more related to the way of debating than to the content.

"Every" PoS guy? Sorry, but that's just a unsubstantiated generalisation. Personally, I've never felt any pressure. So that's me out already, and I know many more that weren't feeling it either. That does not take away the fact that others díd feel it. Like it or not, a community is not run by computer processes, but has a social context, too.

Quote
is it related to the fear that the hacker would dump the NXT onto the open mkt and crash the price?

This is a leading and suggestive question. There are several other reasons why people may have reacted negatively. Pure anger could definitely be one, for instance.

Your answer to this question, which leads directly to the point you actually want to make "Bitcoin doesn't care about those things" isn't really valid as it needs the support of your own leading question.
That's just bad arguing, I am sorry to say.

Nothing wrong with people completely disagreeing with how Nxt handles things. Nothing wrong with rather seeing it gone.

I just don't like a debate that is held by using techniques that aren't really aimed at addressing the (valid) issues, but instead seem to be about proving that a personal point of view is right.

That goes for the Bitcoin ánd for the Nxt side of this debate, by the way.

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September 17, 2014, 05:30:15 PM
 #12232

FOMC announcement 30 min
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September 17, 2014, 05:54:14 PM
 #12233

if you think Bitcoin is volatile, just watch the stock mkt for the 30 min after the FOMC announcement in 6 min.
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September 17, 2014, 05:58:20 PM
 #12234

if you think Bitcoin is volatile, just watch the stock mkt for the 30 min after the FOMC announcement in 6 min.

Buy the rumor, sell the news. ^^
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September 17, 2014, 06:03:22 PM
 #12235

Boom.  usually the first move is the wrong move.
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September 17, 2014, 06:03:45 PM
 #12236

Boom.  usually the first move is the wrong move.
Indeed, sell off now.
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September 17, 2014, 06:07:26 PM
 #12237

just for sh*ts and giggles, here's what stocks, bonds, oil, gold, silver, and other currencies do when the Fed makes an announcement.  and who says the entire economy doesn't hinge on Fed policy?:

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September 17, 2014, 06:11:26 PM
 #12238

well, here's the good news.

in terms of instantaneous reactions, Bitcoin hasn't budged an inch. 
cypherdoc
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September 17, 2014, 06:28:14 PM
 #12239

well, here's the good news.

in terms of instantaneous reactions, Bitcoin hasn't budged an inch. 

which may, in the broader picture, argue for Bitcoin as the ultimate hedge against mayhem in the broader markets.

and also argues against gold & silver as well, as we see it whipping around like a stuck pig right along with everything else.
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September 17, 2014, 06:33:09 PM
 #12240

..  My real problem with PoS though is that transaction fees are awarded to those who already have high stake rather than those who are providing hardware.

Not that one needs to provided hardware but money should go to those who provided valued work by having to make value judgments in production and the creation of immutable money rules is arguably the most valuable work given the history of money abuse.

When PoS systems solve the problem in bold in a way that creates a functional economy I'll give it some more attention. But for now PoS is more like a better run fiat ponzi, bad for the producers in an economy good for the Money masters.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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