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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1934352 times)
LiQio
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September 16, 2014, 05:37:51 AM
 #12101

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?
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LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


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September 16, 2014, 05:38:07 AM
 #12102

Why does it have to be us vs them? Why must the crypto space be so divided? I am not a "pos guy". I simply see some value and utility in a well designed system and want to share that with others, just as I do with bitcoin.

Fiat is the enemy here.
Fiat is not the enemy.

Bad money is the enemy.

In terms of its trust model PoS is more similar to fiat money than it is similar to Bitcoin.

Fiat money today = bad money.

Debt based. End of story.

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cypherdoc
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September 16, 2014, 05:42:10 AM
 #12103

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.
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September 16, 2014, 05:46:32 AM
 #12104

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

See, if you go into the unfairness arguement, this all sounds ridiculous. Where do ideas of fairness come from anyway? Are you guys trying to build communism? Well, you have to share your thousands of Bitcoins then with other 7 bln. people. Equally. If you don't stop talking about fairness, this just looks plain stupid.
LiQio
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September 16, 2014, 05:47:15 AM
 #12105

Billions of NXT with 70 addresses distributed to a handful of investors in an IPO for a  measly 25 BTC. That's not fair.

Hundred thousands of BTC distributed to a handful of early miners is?

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

So are PoS coin IPOs - open to anyone who actually do the work of reading/investigating/investing.
And the later you come the harder/more expensive it gets. Again same for both system, price for later entry generally depending on the success.
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September 16, 2014, 05:52:17 AM
 #12106

It was open to anyone who actually did the work of mining not to mention the ongoing opportunity to mine.

It's still not fair. And the ongoing opportunity is not fair, you can only get a few millibits and lose money, while early adopters were each getting fat blocks every day.

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 
devphp
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September 16, 2014, 05:55:32 AM
 #12107

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 

That's risk taking. Risk taking should be rewarded, nobody argues with that. However, you argue that other people taking risk, outside of Bitcoin system, somehow don't deserve to be rewarded. How is that not hypocritical?
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September 16, 2014, 05:59:46 AM
 #12108

While doing all that work and paying for electricity for BTC at a price of $0.05 and a chance for it to go to 0.

Coins mined today could still be worth lots tomorrow. At least we have a short at mining fresh coins. Not with POS. 

That's risk taking. Risk taking should be rewarded, nobody argues with that. However, you argue that other people taking risk, outside of Bitcoin system, somehow don't deserve to be rewarded. How is that not hypocritical?

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.
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September 16, 2014, 06:03:11 AM
 #12109

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

First of all, I am not inflating anything, I am a user.

Second, if you can skip the work part and achieve the same and even much more, why do you need the work part? Just for the sake of work? Why don't people still do all the manual work at this age but instead use devices to make their life easier? Not to mention, this 'work' you're referring to is not sustainable long term, if it keeps growing at the rate it is growing, soon half the world will be working to produce ASICs and generate electricity for mining Bitcoin. Which is of course crazy and not gonna happen, something's gotta give sooner or later.
LiQio
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September 16, 2014, 06:08:57 AM
 #12110


You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

I believe burning electricity and hard work were not Satoshis ideas.
PoW was suggested mainly as a solution to double spending. Now other ("improved") ideas are available.
Work itself doesn't give any value to objects.
Frankly I don't care if a gold nugget was found in my garden or if it had to be dug up from 1000 feet - same value.
cypherdoc
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September 16, 2014, 06:10:42 AM
 #12111

You're inflating the cryptocurrency space with a coin created with code only, no work.

First of all, I am not inflating anything, I am a user.

Second, if you can skip the work part and achieve the same and even much more, why do you need the work part? Just for the sake of work? Why don't people still do all the manual work at this age but instead use devices to make their life easier? Not to mention, this 'work' you're referring to is not sustainable long term, if it keeps growing at the rate it is growing, soon half the world will be working to produce ASICs and generate electricity for mining Bitcoin. Which is of course crazy and not gonna happen, something's gotta give sooner or later.

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks. They'd just rather print money to try and attack Bitcoin I'd imagine.  Sorta sounds like POS. Attacks have to be expensive.

Stakeholder collusion would be very bad. 
devphp
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September 16, 2014, 06:15:02 AM
 #12112

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks.

It's not a sustainable path, it can go on for some time, but not forever. They are not gonna produce ASICs to outrun miners, don't worry. What will happen most likely is the electricity fees will be raised dramatically for Bitcoin mining by governments to drive them out of business. In the interests of security of other electricity users. And that is one of major flaws of Bitcoin, it depends on scarce natural resources, that others are in competition for.
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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September 16, 2014, 06:21:51 AM
 #12113

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks.

It's not a sustainable path, it can go on for some time, but not forever. They are not gonna produce ASICs to outrun miners, don't worry. What will happen most likely is the electricity fees will be raised dramatically for Bitcoin mining by governments to drive them out of business. In the interests of security of other electricity users. And that is one of major flaws of Bitcoin, it depends on scarce natural resources, that others are in competition for.
Raising energy prices would hurt everyone. It's all relative.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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September 16, 2014, 06:23:09 AM
 #12114

The real world work part and electricity costs are quite important to discourage gvt attacks.

It's not a sustainable path, it can go on for some time, but not forever. They are not gonna produce ASICs to outrun miners, don't worry. What will happen most likely is the electricity fees will be raised dramatically for Bitcoin mining by governments to drive them out of business. In the interests of security of other electricity users. And that is one of major flaws of Bitcoin, it depends on scarce natural resources, that others are in competition for.

Not if it replaces significant parts of the banking system.

http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/
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September 16, 2014, 06:36:03 AM
 #12115

Raising energy prices would hurt everyone. It's all relative.

Only Bitcoin miners, it would be targeted at them. Governments don't like competition.

Not if it replaces significant parts of the banking system.

Dreams are nice, reality is harsh.
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September 16, 2014, 06:40:53 AM
 #12116

I would say you would have a pretty good legal leg to stand on if they raised prices only for one particular industry.

In most countries there is a privatised energy industry -meaning it wouldn't be the governments decision to raise or lower prices.

Also - it would be easier to just ban bitcoin mining in a country, declare it illegal. This would be a better route if you wanted to stop or discourage it, as opposed to charging miners higher electricity costs.


The next 24 hours are critical!
devphp
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September 16, 2014, 06:47:54 AM
 #12117

I would say you would have a pretty good legal leg to stand on if they raised prices only for one particular industry.

In most countries there is a privatised energy industry -meaning it wouldn't be the governments decision to raise or lower prices.

Also - it would be easier to just ban bitcoin mining in a country, declare it illegal. This would be a better route if you wanted to stop or discourage it, as opposed to charging miners higher electricity costs.

Legislation is not set in stone, it can be changed in the name of national security, welfare of people, optimized usage of natural resources, etc. you get the idea. Electricity fees are a good attack vector, they are not using it yet, because Bitcoin is still insignificant and doesn't pose a threat yet. When/If it does, all bets are off.
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September 16, 2014, 07:37:55 AM
 #12118

I would say you would have a pretty good legal leg to stand on if they raised prices only for one particular industry.

In most countries there is a privatised energy industry -meaning it wouldn't be the governments decision to raise or lower prices.

Also - it would be easier to just ban bitcoin mining in a country, declare it illegal. This would be a better route if you wanted to stop or discourage it, as opposed to charging miners higher electricity costs.

Legislation is not set in stone, it can be changed in the name of national security, welfare of people, optimized usage of natural resources, etc. you get the idea. Electricity fees are a good attack vector, they are not using it yet, because Bitcoin is still insignificant and doesn't pose a threat yet. When/If it does, all bets are off.

You are so full of FUD.

so which gvt are you talking about? The US? China? Russia? Or all of them together since they all seem to get along so well?
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September 16, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
 #12119

Not if it replaces significant parts of the banking system.

Dreams are nice, reality is harsh.

All Bitcoin needs to be is a superior alternative. Personally, I think it is. Time will tell.
Currently the banking sector together with central banks control money almost completely.  How would ceding that control to bitcoin be a superior alternative for them?  It may be a superior alternative for everyone else but it certainly isn't for the banking system.
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September 16, 2014, 08:11:06 AM
 #12120

You are so full of FUD.

I am leaving this thread then. Please stay in your blissful ignorance.
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