Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[TPTB_need_war]

Or they buy the pegged side chain version, because unlike other pegged side chains which can't resist 50% attack, such a side chain could survive alongside the cabal NWO side chain. However they may not be inclined to invest in the pegged side chain version of such a coin design, because they lose the upside ROI of such a novel design.

Blockstream is killing altcoin economics, because Bitcoin users will be inclined to prefer the pegged side chain version over the altcoin so they don't have to deal with volatility in their Bitcoin unit-of-account.

However, if there are out-of-band applications of the altcoin which refuse BTC for ideological reasons (knowing that the ultimate outcome of Bitcoin is to move all zombie masses onto a centralized ledger KYC pegged side chain), then those users who want that out-of-band application will not invest in the pegged side chain version and instead will invest in the altcoin.

The point is that users who want anonymity will congregate away from Bitcoin. But Monero can be 50% attacked and it lacks this out-of-band application I have in mind (and couldn't support it without changes to the mining algorithm). If there is a pegged side chain with all of Monero's attributes, then I no longer need to hold XMR and instead will be holding BTC in addition to my coin.

I made an entire thread on this out-of-band application, but readers appear to be oblivious.

Monero folk will tell you we need more anonymity.  ...  that's enough anonymity for the ordinary user not doing anything wrong.

That is not enough anonymity for those with wealth who will be expropriated by the coming global contagion collapse of socialism. And that is key point! You've entirely missed the boat on this one. You are siding with the zombie masses who will vote for expropriation and unwittingly their own collapse.

So at this time it's Bitcoin hat has the most utility, alts aren't a threat, there will be hacks that can leverage that network, there will be investment opportunities and price growth in alts but for now as I see it

Until there is something that Bitcoin can't do and where BTC is not accepted because Bitcoin is a sly, imminent KYC expropriation paradigm. So now you know how such a coin will be marketed. Prepare your counter-arguments.

[TPTB_need_war]

did you choose to ignore the comment TPTB_need_war made to me immediately after you doxxed me yesterday?  about coming up to my town and starting a physical fight?

I knew he was preparing a case against me.

What I wrote is I'd like for you to do some sport with me. Comparing the talent of your claimed black belt to my hobbiest messing around with boxing. I specifically wrote "for sport of course" and "inside the ring" meaning an agreed upon match.

Because you are one of those guys who brags about things but I'd like to see if you can actually put up when I shut you up. You backed away from the challenge as the weasel coward you appear to be. Why are you bragging about being a black belt on your bio if don't like a sport challenge? If you are truly a black belt, then you should be able to destroy a boxer. You see, I think all those titles are bullshit. There is a big difference between talents of people who claim be a "black belt". And I think you can be smothered and overpowered easily because you look feminine in your photo and you act feminine in your postings.

I also said that I grew up in and around your town. So isn't just "your town".

And if you've been put at risk of physical harm because some people who were defrauded by HashFast would like to break your legs (I wasn't one of their victims), then whose fault is that? Surely you are smart enough to have deduced the risks of what you were promoting at great 3000 BTC profit to yourself.

[marcus_of_augustus]

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

[TPTB_need_war]

OTOH, this could be as well achieved by adding PM in your portfolio. But that's not our subject.

Surely you recognize the great disadvantages of gold as I explained upthread? No one could refute my question about who they will sell their gold to when all the gold dealers have been shut down as they are now in France, and recently extending to Belgium, etc..

There is no economy-of-scale in trading gold. But crypto trades at a distance and (not for Bitcoin) anonymously, thus economies-of-scale are easily attained.

It is no contest. Gold is dead forever. Fuhgeddaboudit.

FWIW, I agree that anonymity can be achieved -under certain circumstances- with BTC but, let me add, this is possible also by using almost any means of transaction. If one wants to be anonymous, he will do what's necessary to achieve so.

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

[TPTB_need_war]

It means I don't like wasting my time with an inane bankruptcy case and I have a friend who incidentally does have a lot of heart for the case helping me out by proxying my seat.

I read TPTB_need_war's comment, and it sounded like an invitation for a literal spar in a ring. The observation that you're letting the comment hang over your head the way you are, is indicative of something...

you are incredibly self serving.  who here wants to be fully doxxed by another on an internet forum?  please chime in to support vokain on this matter and please provide your full identity as proof of your support.

You started it! You demanded to know my name, accusing me of me being Armstrong (when you know damn well I am not, this was a sly ploy of yours to build a case against me), etc.. You even printed my name in your post and demanded I confirm it. That was before vokain said anything.

And you wonder why people would like to kick your a$$.

thanks for giving all of us an idea into your sense of respect for other's privacy.

to clarify, he asked me, not you

The audacity you have.

Now you throw your toys because you can't control them.

And you play the sympathy card. You are so damn predictable. Manipulative control freak.

[greenlion]

Dawn raid RPG incoming.

Sidechains ... coming up next!! exciting times!

http://www.coindesk.com/blockstream-open-source-code-sidechains/

Open source, "nothing up my sleeve", genuine article, don't settle for fake 'solutions' (xt) with hidden agendas.

We won't need tptb to continue the trainwreck from here, the SC buzz will send frappe.doc over the edge.
 
Looking forward to a 'Monero'-like ring signature sidechain and Lightning network sidechain as first working demonstrations for the force of the distributed sidechain solution of self-similar networks operating concomitantly at multiple scales transferring value effortlessly up and down the wealth cascade.

The two-way peg requires a soft-fork, and unless some significant rework of the idea has happened that I'm not aware of, the current prototypes perform the peg with federated servers.

It's entirely possible within the current development environment for any of a number of devs to prevent this from ever happening indefinitely.

Also, the only reason you would need a Lightning network sidechain is if the softfork opcode changes Lightning requires never make it into Core, which is the exact same political situation as getting a two-way peg in the first place.

[TPTB_need_war]

The two-way peg requires a soft-fork, and unless some significant rework of the idea has happened that I'm not aware of, the current prototypes perform the peg with federated servers.

It's entirely possible within the current development environment for any of a number of devs to prevent this from ever happening indefinitely.

Also, the only reason you would need a Lightning network sidechain is if the softfork opcode changes Lightning requires never make it into Core, which is the exact same political situation as getting a two-way peg in the first place.

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

[greenlion]

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.

[kazuki49]

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

Anonymous cash has been the preferred form of money for the last centuries. It is only with the advent of Bitcoin in the last ~7 years that has opened the possibility of a traceable digital token for some delusional "one-world-one-block-chain" bitcoiners think its a silver bullet for every problem in the world, mainly against the system and its power-grabbing freaks they say to fight against.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/

[tvbcof]

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

I've a strong suspicion that interest in sponsoring XT will dry up if it cannot be the primary source of truth in the crypto-currency space, and it looks a lot like sidechains will beat them to the punch allowing Bitcoin to remain (and significantly extend) it's distributed infrastructure support base.

Way to go Blockstream.  You guys rock!  Not even all that far off the schedule I predicted near the beginning of the year IIRC.

[tvbcof]

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.

Few people argue that federated methods are much more than a kludge, but as Maxwell points out in the recent announcement vid it is not clear that Bitcoin's native method of consensus, ideologically pure as it is, is devoid of fault or failure modes.  I've long argued that a federated scheme or similar would be a good auxiliary fall-back (mostly to discourage superior resource attacks from even being attempted.)  For this reason it hardly breaks my heart that necessity forces development of federated schemes which, temporary or not, deserve some degree of love.

Properly implemented federated methods absolutely ARE fundamentally different than many of todays crop of off-chain solutions.  With great effort a decent federated system might be able to inconvenience me and/or steal a tiny fraction of people's money in the micro-seconds before they were found out, but that is a completely different thing than, say, Coinbase who could freeze (and spend) all of the BTC I have in my account and everyone else's account as well.

[TPTB_need_war]

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

And when the dying NWO socialism expropriates all wealth, even that which can be accounted for?

Do you dismiss this as very unlikely? You will not even hedge against this outcome?

Have not Dark Ages occurred every 2 x 309 years or so throughout human history? Do you know which of the two alternating cycles we are on now? In short, do you know what time it is?

Have you not viewed at least the first of the following linked presentations? You are doing yourself a massive disservice as an investor if you don't review the following. Are you aware of the Reese commission report? (of course not, because all the copies of this Congressional report were bought up and destroyed)

https://archive.org/details/TaxExemptFoundationsTheEnemyWithin-NormanDoddDrStanMonteith

Princes of the Yen: Central Bank Truth Documentary 『円の支配者

http://billmoyers.com/episode/the-deep-state-hiding-in-plain-sight/

https://solari.com/blog/the-bilderbergers-with-dr-joseph-farrell/

https://solari.com/blog/solari-stories-the-black-budget/

Rumsfeld 2.3 Trillion Dollars missing Pentagon

[tvbcof]

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

And when the dying socialism expropriates all wealth, even that which can be accounted for?

It's awakening Socialism (built on and inextricably linked to cronyism and totalitarianism) that bothers me in that respect.  That's one of the big reasons that Bitcoin has captured and held my interest, and is probably the biggest reason I dislike XT so vehemently and am so excited about sidechains.

Do you dismiss this as very unlikely?

Have not Dark Ages occurred every 2 x 309 years or so throughout human history? Do you know which of the two alternating cycles we are on now? In short, do you know what time it is?

I didn't know that.  Thanks for sharing your expertise in numerology.  edit - now, how about that code?

[TPTB_need_war]

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

And when the dying socialism expropriates all wealth, even that which can be accounted for?

It's awakening Socialism (built on and inextricably linked to cronyism and totalitarianism) that bothers me in that respect.  That's one of the big reasons that Bitcoin has captured and held my interest, and is probably the biggest reason I dislike XT so vehemently and am so excited about sidechains.

Awakening Socialism (i.e. 0.001% vs. 99.999% aka 99% vs. 1%) is "dying NWO socialism" because it is a resource depletion paradigm. Meaning all wealth gets expropriated. So we agree then?

So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?

Do you dismiss this as very unlikely?

Have not Dark Ages occurred every 2 x 309 years or so throughout human history? Do you know which of the two alternating cycles we are on now? In short, do you know what time it is?

I didn't know that.  Thanks for sharing your expertise in numerology.  edit - now, how about that code?

Code for the computer model that discovered the 309 year cycle, or code for the vaporware crypto-coin solution I dangle in front of your face?

[tvbcof]

...
So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?
...

Because I have no intention whatsoever of putting anything into any sidechain that I cannot afford to walk away from with a chuckle.

I expect to seen numerous sidechains sponsored by all kinds of entities for all kinds of purposes.  I'm very much looking forward to being able to distribute my eggs and to uses the various sidechains to achieve various goals.

All sidechains have one thing they need:  a rock solid Bitcoin since it is their backing and the basis for their value.  I expect the majority of sidechains to be legitimate and to participate in keeping Bitcoin strong and trusted.

I also expect that a wide variety of entities are going to find operating and managing their own monetary systems (their own sidechains) to provide a lot of rewards of different types and to pass some of this value on to their userbase.  Those who are positioned to make use of such a capability are also going to be among the most influential in guiding policy.  They are going to recognize the value of an independent and trusted Bitcoin as the ingredient that makes their sidechain work feasible and employ this influence in political spheres as necessary.  These are my hopes and predictions (which, admittedly, drift off the topic at hand.)

[TPTB_need_war]

...
So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?
...

Because I have no intention whatsoever of putting anything into any sidechain that I cannot afford to walk away from with a chuckle.

Thank you! So you are not serious about hedging against expropriation.

But if expropriation becomes serious, then what will you do if there is no solution? Kiss all your wealth goodbye?

In essence, appears you do not take expropriation seriously, which is always the case before the cliff into the Dark Age.

I expect to seen numerous sidechains sponsored by all kinds of entities for all kinds of purposes.  I'm very much looking forward to being able to distribute my eggs and to uses the various sidechains to achieve various goals.

All sidechains have one thing they need:  a rock solid Bitcoin since it is their backing and the basis for their value.  I expect the majority of sidechains to be legitimate and to participate in keeping Bitcoin strong and trusted.

I also expect that a wide variety of entities are going to find operating and managing their own monetary systems (their own sidechains) to provide a lot of rewards of different types and to pass some of this value on to their userbase.  Those who are positioned to make use of such a capability are also going to be among the most influential in guiding policy.  They are going to recognize the value of an independent and trusted Bitcoin as the ingredient that makes their sidechain work feasible and employ this influence in political spheres as necessary.  These are my hopes and predictions (which, admittedly, drift off the topic at hand.)

I agree this is plausible and there could be competition of business models of side chains vs. altcoins. That would all be sufficient if not for the NWO socialism on the imminent horizon.

[iCEBREAKER]

there are those of us who can do anything MPEX can do.

maybe more. 

Brave words, Frap.doc.  Correct in the narrow sense that I'd rather not have MP in charge of zapping my eyes with a LASIK.   

But MPEX has never been hacked and famously clowned the SEC functionary who bothered them.  Those aren't easily duplicated results.

You know MPEX is just the tip of the #bitcoin-assets iceberg (where the whale herds swim), right?

But let's stay on point.

Exactly what are you proposing be done in response to the GavinCoin Short?  Hope it just goes away?

[TPTB_need_war]

But MPEX has never been hacked and famously clowned the SEC functionary who bothered them.  Those aren't easily duplicated results.

How do you know that MPEX is not a CIA/NSA/DEEP STATE operative? Normally the very public figures are comprised in the world we live in.

That SEC dialogue could be fabricated to create idolism. Russia vs. USA is a fabricated Hegelian dialectic. Obedient sheepslaves don't think so, because they don't do any research.

The war is over control of your mind. Very few of you seem capable of escaping mind programming.

I am not saying for sure he is compromised. But his stance is illogical because his GavinCoin short power is destroyed if pegged side chains make it to reality. And I hear no retort from you nor him on that point? (third time I've asked you) Normally the way to doxx an operative is to catch them in an illogical stance.

iCebreaker vs. Cypherdoc is the perfect Hegelian dialectic. They may be working for the same master whether they know it or not.

[TPTB_need_war]

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.

Few people argue that federated methods are much more than a kludge, but as Maxwell points out in the recent announcement vid it is not clear that Bitcoin's native method of consensus, ideologically pure as it is, is devoid of fault or failure modes.  I've long argued that a federated scheme or similar would be a good auxiliary fall-back (mostly to discourage superior resource attacks from even being attempted.)  For this reason it hardly breaks my heart that necessity forces development of federated schemes which, temporary or not, deserve some degree of love.

Properly implemented federated methods absolutely ARE fundamentally different than many of todays crop of off-chain solutions.  With great effort a decent federated system might be able to inconvenience me and/or steal a tiny fraction of people's money in the micro-seconds before they were found out, but that is a completely different thing than, say, Coinbase who could freeze (and spend) all of the BTC I have in my account and everyone else's account as well.

We see that Buttcon supporters put up with all sorts of inane arguments about:

1. CoinJoin is scalable
2. Off chain anonymity is sufficient
3. Centralization won't happen because of Nash equilibrium and nodes awakening
4. Centralization is efficiency and is okay

So yeah, they will also embrace federation too.

But for those who are not idiots, they will prefer an altcoin that can't be 50% attacked, can't be expropriated, and is assuredly anonymous.

I am placing my bets on the non-idiots to survive the coming global contagion. You can decide which side you want to be on.

[TPTB_need_war]

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

Anonymous cash has been the preferred form of money for the last centuries. It is only with the advent of Bitcoin in the last ~7 years that has opened the possibility of a traceable digital token for some delusional "one-world-one-block-chain" bitcoiners think its a silver bullet for every problem in the world, mainly against the system and its power-grabbing freaks they say to fight against.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/

Some of us see the threat. But how many of us are there? Enough to make an altcoin fly?

I think so, especially by drawing in the Silk Road market using an out-of-band application. What say you?