Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[brg444]

Sure, appcoins will probably have some value but it will degrade over time, just like frequent flyer miles as they will inevitably be inflated away through promises broken.

i am guna laugh my god damn ass off if an "app coin" as you call them ever over takes bitcoin lol im not saying its likely, just that it would be the most hilarious event in crypto history for me to see so many "wise men" proven wrong all in one go

How could they as most of them have not guaranteed a fixed supply nor will function as a neutral SOV for an undefined purpose.

The way this would happen is if one of them became extremely useful and popular first. Then it would be so widely used and accepted that it could start to be used as money by others even if they had no direct interest in the underlying service. It really wouldn't take a lot for something to become more widely used than bitcoin at this point.

I don't really see this happening with something like storj (too limited in application), but something like ethereum or perhaps maidsafe has the (long shot) potential to develop in that manner.

i can't think of anything more useful or popular than the function of money itself.  not to mention exciting, as this is precisely where all the problems of the financial world lie, and hence the potential to disrupt.  the problem when you try to intermingle or weave other assets classes into the structure of the money itself is that it quickly gets complicated and even political as we're seeing with Ethereum.  poor boy Vitalik can't even decide how to secure the whole concept yet at this late stage of his game.

Maidsafe is the goal for a decentralized internet, which is about the extent of my understanding of it.  however, using Safecoins is problematic.

When you try to solve all the problems you sometimes end up not solving a single one.

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[cypherdoc]

Eris essentially going after Ethereum: https://blog.erisindustries.com/products/2014/12/27/step-by-step-eris/

Vitalik and Eris staff back and forth in the comments...

Vitalik has been seemingly pleasantly surprised by the recent developments in bitshares and participAtes in discussion over at bitsharestalk... maybe he will get a paid delegate and switch over?

and now he's talking to Eris?  oh brother.  such wow.  such confusion.  from the article:

"We’ll say it again: Blockchains are tools, not investment products. At Eris Industries, we build the tools to make them better, and more useful for, developers and businesspeople just like you."  sure, as i said above, there will be some who will be motivated to "contribute" to these types of tools, however, with Bitcoin everyone in fact has a tremendous "investment incentive" to participate in the greatest network effect of all, that of Money.  this is why so many VC's and smart ppl are investing in Bitcoin; because of the binary potential.  either zero or the Moon.

furthermore, in one of the diagrams it says that Ethereum may use "snapshots" to secure their blockchain.  that won't work.  these are similar to "checkpoints" that Bitcoin uses.  but in Bitcoin, checkpoints are mere validations of the POW that have gone into building/fortifying the blockchain up to that point in time.  they are merely cementing/formalizing what already has been cemented.  a "snapshot", imo, is merely a confidence measure.  there's nothing to assure that the snapshot represents reality or the truth up to that point.

[_mr_e]

No one is saying  that the app won't have value as in Storj or Maidsafe. It's the appcoin that will trend towards 0 as BTC is held until only when one needs to utilize appcoin. Eventually, you might as well just use BTC instead of appcoin and the devs will probably come to this realization .  

Instead of issuing appcoins, the devs should issue stock. Then it would be fair.

SuperNet does act more like a stock then an appcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.0

Not only is it backed by crypto-currency giving it a NAV floor but it is also backed by a very wide array of differant dividend/revenue producing companies. Given one of it's purposes is to allow the frictionless transfer between any type of crypto currency/asset via decentralized tradebots and dynamic p2p orderbooks, I see a future where it will be very possible that such a revenue producing token(s) also becoming usable as a currency, spendable wherever btc is already accepted.

Andreas explains the concept nicely here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw28y81s7Wo&list=PLdba36-UYQPeb2Gsq3ldC1bstxLBLlyUN (17 min mark)

[impulse]

Great analysis of sidechains:

http://konradsgraf.com/storage/Monetary%20analsyis%20of%20sidecoins%20KG%2024Oct2014.pdf

[cypherdoc]

Great analysis of sidechains:

http://konradsgraf.com/storage/Monetary%20analsyis%20of%20sidecoins%20KG%2024Oct2014.pdf

old, yet still valuable.

[cypherdoc]

i still say that there is a purpose for this long, drawn out year long pullback in Bitcoin; flush the competition:

[inca]

i still say that there is a purpose for this long, drawn out year long pullback in Bitcoin; flush the competition:

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

It is almost getting tempting to pick a few thousand!

[cypherdoc]

i still say that there is a purpose for this long, drawn out year long pullback in Bitcoin; flush the competition:

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

It is almost getting tempting to pick a few thousand!

no.  just let them die.  the sooner that happens, the sooner Bitcoin can Moon.

[cypherdoc]

Mastercoin flushed:

[Melbustus]

I'd love to see a site that nicely shows (probably on one long page) the 1yr chart vs bitcoin of all sufficiently-aged alt-coins. I'd guess 99%+ would look like LTC and MSC.

[5ick3uffalo]

indeed tempting picking up a few thousand LTC....

Posted From bitcointalk.org Android App

[NewLiberty]

I'd love to see a site that nicely shows (probably on one long page) the 1yr chart vs bitcoin of all sufficiently-aged alt-coins. I'd guess 99%+ would look like LTC and MSC.

*ahem* Counterparty.

[BldSwtTrs]

I'd love to see a site that nicely shows (probably on one long page) the 1yr chart vs bitcoin of all sufficiently-aged alt-coins. I'd guess 99%+ would look like LTC and MSC.

*ahem* Counterparty.

PTS/AGS which have given a stake in BitShares have a decent return also.

[justusranvier]

Mastercoin flushed.

Speaking of those guys, they are getting desperate now.

They are changing the name of the project in an attempt to escape their past bad press.

Several developers have quit in disgust.

D.J. and JR. W. are sending out emails trying to recruit more projects like Maidsafe they can use to pull more MSC bagholders.

I don't think it will do them much good in the end.

[smoothie]

i still say that there is a purpose for this long, drawn out year long pullback in Bitcoin; flush the competition:

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

It is almost getting tempting to pick a few thousand!

no.  just let them die.  the sooner that happens, the sooner Bitcoin can Moon.

Litecoin isn't holding back Bitcoin from mooning. The premise there is wrong in my opinion. Bitcoin will succeed whether or not Litecoin does.

People will speculate despite what some may want. I should know I was and still am one of them.  

[smooth]

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

The scale is a bit misleading. It looks perhaps like LTC is down 99% but look at the numbers. It is down from about 0.03 to 0.01.

Bitcoin is down a similar amount against USD. 

(Granted LTC is priced against BTC so down ~90% against USD).

[cypherdoc]

[sickpig]

what is "constant time"?

Improved signing security

For 0.10 the security of signing against unusual attacks has been improved by making the signatures constant time and deterministic.

This change is a result of switching signing to use libsecp256k1 instead of OpenSSL. Libsecp256k1 is a cryptographic library optimized for the curve Bitcoin uses which was created by Bitcoin Core developer Pieter Wuille.

There exist attacks[1] against most ECC implementations where an attacker on shared virtual machine hardware could extract a private key if they could cause a target to sign using the same key hundreds of times. While using shared hosts and reusing keys are inadvisable for other reasons, it's a better practice to avoid the exposure.

OpenSSL has code in their source repository for derandomization and reduction in timing leaks, and we've eagerly wanted to use it for a long time but this functionality has still not made its way into a released version of OpenSSL. Libsecp256k1 achieves significantly stronger protection: As far as we're aware this is the only deployed implementation of constant time signing for the curve Bitcoin uses and we have reason to believe that libsecp256k1 is better tested and more thoroughly reviewed than the implementation in OpenSSL.

[1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/161.pdf

A countermeasure against

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_attack

?

Although I can't think of a practical scenario where a typical user would ever be exposed to this, yes, the concern is side-channel attacks (e.g., a timing attack):

( ... cut a lot of helpful links, quote and explanations ... )

I think deterministic signatures are much more important than constant-time signatures (there's been a non-trivial amount of funds lost due to the repeat k-value problem but I doubt a single satoshi has ever been lost due to a genuine side-channel attack).  Someone like gmaxwell could comment better on the practical risks here…

I concur with all you said. I think that Pieter Wuille took a chance to snap in this "constant time" thing while writing libsecp256k1. What seems weird to me is that they don't mention the main advantage of replacing OpenSSL with such "custom made" signing tool: speed.

Quoting a gmaxwell's email to the bitocoin-development mailing list (related to the headers-first sync feature):

(I'm using 295k as the target here because after that point ecdsa
dominates, and then your 6+x faster libsecp256k makes more of a
difference)

(bold is mine)

[Melbustus]

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

The scale is a bit misleading. It looks perhaps like LTC is down 99% but look at the numbers. It is down from about 0.03 to 0.01.

Bitcoin is down a similar amount against USD.  

(Granted LTC is priced against BTC so down ~90% against USD).

Nov 29 2013, LTC was at 0.043BTC, which was about $47. LTC = $2.74 today, so that's a fall of 94.2% against the dollar (and a fall of 80% against bitcoin at current 0.00859BTC/LTC).

[smooth]

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

The scale is a bit misleading. It looks perhaps like LTC is down 99% but look at the numbers. It is down from about 0.03 to 0.01.

Bitcoin is down a similar amount against USD.  

(Granted LTC is priced against BTC so down ~90% against USD).

Nov 29 2013, LTC was at 0.043BTC, which was about $47. LTC = $2.74 today, so that's a fall of 94.2% against the dollar (and a fall of 80% against bitcoin at current 0.00859BTC/LTC).

Yes and from the peak of 1163, BTC is now down 73%. At its recently low of 275, it was down 76%. Not quite as bad as LTC but nothing to cheer about either.