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Author Topic: [4+ EH] Slush Pool (slushpool.com); Overt AsicBoost; World First Mining Pool  (Read 4380922 times)
slush (OP)
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October 25, 2011, 11:46:00 PM
 #4161

User bars - finally! Thanks twmz for hell fast support. Please visit btcstats.net to pick yours. I'll integrate userbars to website soon.

The Bitcoin network protocol was designed to be extremely flexible. It can be used to create timed transactions, escrow transactions, multi-signature transactions, etc. The current features of the client only hint at what will be possible in the future.
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melted349
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October 26, 2011, 12:08:19 AM
 #4162

You've explained a lot, and I appreciate that.  I still don't see why you can't show a user's submitted shares for a found block on the stats page.  That part doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to do.  Somewhere you have to have that data because you use that date to calculate the score to determine the payout.  So why can't you add a column to the stats next to total shares and call it your shares so you can see how many shares you submitted for that block. 

The only reason I bring this up and question the scoring system btw is because I should have a steady payout when mining.  For the most part I should mine at around 900Mhash/s, and currently the pool's rate has been around 1100Ghash/s - 1200Ghash/s, so for each found block my payout should be roughly around the same amount.  Sometimes I'm making 0.030 BTC per block found, and sometimes I'm making as low as 0.006 per block found.  That's a large variance in payout.  And I can't help but look at the scoring system and question it.  Also, sometimes I view my account page and see my score will say something like 100000.00 + of a score.  And then a few hours later it'll be 200.00 or some number in the hundreds.  Which is why I really do not understand your scoring system.  And I am unaware of anywhere on the site where I can see my hash rate from the site's side, which could explain some of this.  Or even a stale share ratio, so I know how many stale shares I'm submitting. 

I'm not trying to criticize your work or your site.  You've done something I could never do on my own.  I use your site because it is the largest merged mining pool I have found.  But I see so many other sites that have merged mining all having the same basic stats available to the users.  I just don't see how some of these basic stats would be so difficult to display.  Just in my thinking, it would seem that you would need to have these stats anyway to calculate proper payout, so displaying these stats to the users would be as simple as storing them in another table to on database and re-writing some of the stat pages to display them. 
slush (OP)
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October 26, 2011, 12:27:06 AM
Last edit: October 26, 2011, 01:55:47 AM by slush
 #4163

I still don't see why you can't show a user's submitted shares for a found block on the stats page.  That part doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to do.  

Actually I can do it. However people then start asking "when I get a round payout 0.03123 when I should get 0.03122?". I can show submitted shares, but it isn't used for calculating rewards, so it's mostly pointless. I'm always saying "one round does not matter". There is proof that it will average out after few thousands of shares (link taken from News on website). Everything what you need to follow is 7-day average on Graphs page.

Quote
Sometimes I'm making 0.030 BTC per block found, and sometimes I'm making as low as 0.006 per block found.

Now you understand what I'm talking two lines above, right? :-).

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That's a large variance in payout.

If you're mining all time and don't have any connection issues which is lowering your round reward, then it's only tax for score method. Actually - nobody who understand how it works care about single round reward.

Quote
Also, sometimes I view my account page and see my score will say something like 100000.00 + of a score.  And then a few hours later it'll be 200.00 or some number in the hundreds.  Which is why I really do not understand your scoring system.

Everything is described in link above. This 'weird stuff' with score is calling 'renormalization'. Renormalization is running every hour to avoid calculations with huge numbers (you know that score is rising exponentially in time). But everytime you calculate (your score)/(pool total score), you'll get the same ratio reflecting your part on final round reward. No black magic here.

Quote
Or even a stale share ratio, so I know how many stale shares I'm submitting.  

Profile will display stale share ratio soon, it's in ongoing pool update. However only your miner shows you stale ratio and connection issues with 100% accuracy.

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I just don't see how some of these basic stats would be so difficult to display.

About nmc stats - I simply don't have such precisious stats to display, as I explained before.

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would be as simple as storing them in another table to on database

... which double database writes... World is pretty hard place to live :-). I understand your questions, but I have some limited resources (mostly time) and I'm choosing what can I done with them. However I agree that sometimes my choice don't fit preferences of pool users. I'll try to make stats better soon.

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October 26, 2011, 01:53:53 AM
 #4164

I really do not understand your scoring system. 

30 seconds on google would explain the scoring system and all the other payout systems

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools

Score - Score based system: a proportional reward, but weighed by time submitted. Each submitted share is worth more in the function of time t since start of current round. For each share score is updated by: score += exp(t/C). This makes later shares worth much more than earlier shares, thus the miner's score quickly diminishes when they stop mining on the pool. Rewards are calculated proportionally to scores (and not to shares). (at slush's pool C=300 seconds, and every hour scores are normalized)


so when you see it drop back to 200 or whatever its because the scores were normalized...



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mb300sd
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October 26, 2011, 02:45:38 AM
 #4165

Does the score system mean that the pool is vulnerable to reverse pool hopping? Like only joining in on a block towards the end?

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October 26, 2011, 09:31:36 AM
 #4166

Does the score system mean that the pool is vulnerable to reverse pool hopping? Like only joining in on a block towards the end?

Yes, of course. Everything you need is to be the God :-).

I'm kidding. "Reverse pool hopping" does not work, because nobody knows when round will finish (in the oposite everybody knows when round begin, which is the problem with standard proportional method).

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October 26, 2011, 02:34:20 PM
 #4167

User bars - finally! Thanks twmz for hell fast support. Please visit btcstats.net to pick yours. I'll integrate userbars to website soon.

YES!  50 posts at the same time User Bars are available.   Grin

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digital
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October 26, 2011, 02:52:45 PM
 #4168

hmm, still got "image removed"...

maybe I need 51 posts?

edit:  still there, hopefully there's just a delay...

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Iyeman
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October 26, 2011, 03:24:48 PM
 #4169

hmm, still got "image removed"...

maybe I need 51 posts?

edit:  still there, hopefully there's just a delay...

You have to go back and put the image back and when i hit 50 posts it took a few hours for the system to change my permissions.



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digital
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October 26, 2011, 03:58:06 PM
 #4170

hmm, still got "image removed"...

maybe I need 51 posts?

edit:  still there, hopefully there's just a delay...

You have to go back and put the image back and when i hit 50 posts it took a few hours for the system to change my permissions.

Thanks, I didn't notice that it actually changed the code that was pasted in...

If I help you out: 17QatvSdciyv2zsdAbphDEUzST1S6x46c3
References (bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=): 50051.20  50051.100  53668.0  53788.0  53571.0  53571.0  52212.0  50729.0  114804.0  115468  78106  69061  58572  54747
slush (OP)
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October 27, 2011, 01:03:13 AM
 #4171

One guy reported me that he lost some coins, because he didn't confirm new wallet fast enough while his reward already crossed over threshold. To prevent this stupid issue, pool won't process payouts for users who have pending wallet change in progress.

To enable payouts again, you need to cancel request or confirm new wallet.

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October 27, 2011, 02:52:40 AM
 #4172

I'm not trying to criticize your work or your site.  You've done something I could never do on my own.  I use your site because it is the largest merged mining pool I have found.  But I see so many other sites that have merged mining all having the same basic stats available to the users.  I just don't see how some of these basic stats would be so difficult to display.  Just in my thinking, it would seem that you would need to have these stats anyway to calculate proper payout, so displaying these stats to the users would be as simple as storing them in another table to on database and re-writing some of the stat pages to display them. 

I've spent way too much time analysing Slush's pool, and it is definitely my favourite with lots of easter eggs for the mathematically inclined. More importantly, the payouts over a week or so are exactly as I'd expect, the statistics are fantastic, and the website quick and intuitive. I have to agree with Slush that you really don't need to know your submitted shares and unless you have the exact time each was submitted you won't end up with the correct score anyway.


If you know your average hashrate and score for a round, then you can approximate the number of shares submitted using:
Code:
c y log(1+z/(c y))
where c=300, z is your score and c is your miner speed in shares per second. It will probably be +/- 5% out, but it should be close.


Quote
Sometimes I'm making 0.030 BTC per block found, and sometimes I'm making as low as 0.006 per block found. 

You probably won't trust me on my say-so, but I've analysed my scores and the pool scores on and off for a few months and my earnings match simulated earnings quite well. That said, the longer a round lasts the more the variance in payout you will observe - you're more likely to get much more or less than you'd expect for longer rounds.




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organofcorti
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October 27, 2011, 03:10:33 AM
Last edit: October 27, 2011, 06:10:09 AM by organofcorti
 #4173

Another limitation of the function I give above is that it won't calculate any imaginary shares Smiley (math joke for the geeks out there)

For that you would need the full derivation:

Code:
c y log(1+z/(c y)+2*i*pi)

Now you can check the score of non-real shares! I wonder what my imaginary gpu's hashrate is? Something pretty damn devastating, i expect.

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October 27, 2011, 01:03:02 PM
 #4174

Hello everybody,

Is the pool ok?
As for me the current 9+ hour block looks a bit unlucky.
And the previous 4 hour too.
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October 27, 2011, 01:11:24 PM
 #4175

It looks like something is up.

My miners are all running properly though, so I suspect that it's Slush poking around with stats etc.

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slush (OP)
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October 27, 2011, 01:14:41 PM
 #4176

Everything seems to be ok. It's "only" 9.5mil shares, so nothing impossible. For example, deepbit had 10+ mil shares in one round today, too.

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October 27, 2011, 01:17:16 PM
 #4177

Estimated rewards etc seem totally off though atm  Wink

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slush (OP)
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October 27, 2011, 01:31:59 PM
 #4178

Estimated rewards etc seem totally off though atm  Wink

OK, it's only >estimated< reward; it's calculated from slightly outdated info (becuase of caching). I'll watch how rewards from this block will be finally distributed and if there will be something weird, I'll fix it. Thanks for pointing me to that.

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October 27, 2011, 01:39:56 PM
 #4179

I really do not understand your scoring system.

30 seconds on google would explain the scoring system and all the other payout systems

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools

Score - Score based system: a proportional reward, but weighed by time submitted. Each submitted share is worth more in the function of time t since start of current round. For each share score is updated by: score += exp(t/C). This makes later shares worth much more than earlier shares, thus the miner's score quickly diminishes when they stop mining on the pool. Rewards are calculated proportionally to scores (and not to shares). (at slush's pool C=300 seconds, and every hour scores are normalized)


so when you see it drop back to 200 or whatever its because the scores were normalized...

With current pool hash rate Early shares submitted by a pool hopper will decline very quickly
every increase in total hash rate of the pool increases that rate of decline
The score system esentially makes what you submited at the beginning of a round worthless
even if you mine for the whole round

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digital
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October 27, 2011, 02:22:43 PM
 #4180

Hello everybody,

Is the pool ok?
As for me the current 9+ hour block looks a bit unlucky.
And the previous 4 hour too.

Yeah, im sure it's just unlucky.  I've seen 12+ hour blocks in the recent past (not counting the 1 1/2 day block from when the pool was ddos'ed).

Didn't happen as often when the pool was up around 2000 ghash, but now that its around 1200/1300 there is a lot more variance.

If I help you out: 17QatvSdciyv2zsdAbphDEUzST1S6x46c3
References (bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=): 50051.20  50051.100  53668.0  53788.0  53571.0  53571.0  52212.0  50729.0  114804.0  115468  78106  69061  58572  54747
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