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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
Bitcoins - 3235 (80.5%)
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Gold/silver coins and bars - 371 (9.2%)
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Author Topic: [4+ EH] Slush Pool (slushpool.com); Overt AsicBoost; World First Mining Pool  (Read 4328503 times)
rahl
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November 07, 2011, 11:13:50 PM
 #4521

Why does nobody become a p2pool fanboy Tongue

Because the people mining on Deepbit can't figure out how to install it Smiley

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November 08, 2011, 12:07:51 AM
 #4522

bottom line:
If you not hashing fast enough at some point the rate of declineing payoff will exceed the shares your miner can submit and you loose to the big boys (especially when's hard to find a share)

You are quite wrong about that because you misunderstand how a proportional pool works.

You will get less variance with a PPS pool but a lower average payout. PPS pools need to give you a lower average payout by design as they are covering the variance.

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November 08, 2011, 12:12:29 AM
 #4523

bottom line:
If you not hashing fast enough at some point the rate of declineing payoff will exceed the shares your miner can submit and you loose to the big boys (especially when's hard to find a share)

You are quite wrong about that because you misunderstand how a proportional pool works.

You will get less variance with a PPS pool but a lower average payout. PPS pools need to give you a lower average payout by design as they are covering the variance.



What about 0% fee PPS pools like ABC pool etc. !? Diminished earnings compared to prop system or not ?
disclaimer201
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November 08, 2011, 01:52:52 AM
 #4524

bottom line:
If you not hashing fast enough at some point the rate of declineing payoff will exceed the shares your miner can submit and you loose to the big boys (especially when's hard to find a share)

You are quite wrong about that because you misunderstand how a proportional pool works.

You will get less variance with a PPS pool but a lower average payout. PPS pools need to give you a lower average payout by design as they are covering the variance.



What about 0% fee PPS pools like ABC pool etc. !? Diminished earnings compared to prop system or not ?

For the love of God! Doesn't anyone inform themselves anymore @ wikipedia and mining guides? A pps pool with 0% fee would be great, except the pool will go bankrupt in no time. A ppl pool always take takes the full risk and may actually end up paying out much more to miners than it is making as a whole.

And for those other comments, what is the deal with that fanboy naming? Has this become the new standard 'Secret of Monkey Island'TM answer if you can't counter an argument on the basis of matter of fact? ;-) No offence.

I mine @ Slush not because of an awesome man-crush on czech programmers but simply because this pool offers low fees, long polling, merged mining and a way to counter pool hopping. I honestly liked BtcGuild but found out that my payouts at 0% prop were somehow less than at Slush's pool over the time of two months. And during that, there were downtimes over there as well. I tried deepbit (10%) and quickly decided against it, if you are willing to go pps, surely there are cheaper alternatives since variance is not a problem with any pps, or is it? I tried other pps pools, but they still have quite high fees and no merged mining. If they do offer merged mining and pps, they have hidden transfer fees that sum up to 10% again (NMCBit).

At least we know why people choose deepbit now, they didn't understand the entire variance thing yet and need to educate themselves a bit more. Bigger pool isn't always better, quite literally.
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November 08, 2011, 12:27:59 PM
 #4525

Ok, so I couldn't stop mining a bit in this pool.
However, I was just trying to change payout address on the NMC when I got a big warning note about "You have pending request for changing Namecoin wallet to:" and in there an email that doesn't belong to me. How do I go about changing that email? It does seem to send a confirmation mail to that address, and I most certainly won't get it.

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
catfish
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November 08, 2011, 01:10:54 PM
 #4526

mining for gold/silver does sound interesting. 
I've been doing this since the very very beginning of my mining exploits, back with slush's pool in actual fact.

Every bitcoin I've mined has been spent on silver and gold coins.

Having a direct link from the pool would be a compelling reason to join back up here, but of course, actual rates and types of gold/silver coin would be an issue. Does slush *really* want to get into the bullion dealing business?

BTW - for those seeking gold, nice small bullion-grade coins are the Mexican 2 and 2.5 peso coins. At current rates, they're costing me around 40-50 BTC each, which is achievable with a smallish mining setup every week. Seeing a gold coin appear in the post every week makes this mad enterprise worth it.

Whether the constant extraction of value from the BTC economy to precious metal bullion is good for the Bitcoin economy is a question best moved to the Economy forum... (the answer is no, it's not that good for all miners to be doing this). For that reason alone, it'd probably be best for the pools to get out of the 'extract value' business and let miners pay other Bitcoin-accepting merchants for their bullion, as it increases the BTC velocity and viability of the currency. If all miners simply cash out from the pool directly, then the value of mining will crash very quickly. All sellers and no buyers - this is a very serious issue BTW.

Where are you getting the coins from mate, since I am in the UK too. Thanks !

This is the same with NMC -> automatically being to BTC. Price will crash soon. We  need to unload the BTC for $$$ with precision. It is a bit like quantitative easing Smiley
It's not really like QE but I won't put my fixed income geek hat on and bore you to death with shifting the maturity profile of outstanding sovereign debt in order to alter the duration and hopefully reduce the yield of short-term debt, allowing cheaper financing for banks at the cost of 'kicking the can' and stoking inflation. Oooops, just have. Sorry.

NMC to BTC is an almost certain crash because of exactly what I said (and you re-iterated) - without a thriving *trade* using the currency, and just sellers cashing out for other currencies, you've effectively got a trading pit full of sellers and no buyers. The only buyers would be speculators, and I can't see many reasons to speculate on NMC with a constantly-fading value unless you can naked short them, which should be illegal. Regular shorts require borrowing the NMC to begin with, creating a buyer and reducing the profit in the short (in a simple market like NMC).

I'm still concerned about the miners-offloading issue with BTC, but there is at least a regular *trade* in BTC and people buying the currency to use in purchasing things they don't want recorded on credit cards / bank accounts (even legal stuff, like gold, causes nervousness - as slush said, European nations are tightening down on personal bullion purchases - requiring reporting to govt - and the USA, of course, has the spectre of Roosevelt and the 1933 gold confiscation... I'd like to see Obama try that *these* days given that American gold-bugs tend to be long on copper and lead Wink too).

Equally, if we spend our mined BTC at a BTC-accepting bullion trader, then there's *some* hope that this will keep the BTC circulating. I know that most bullion traders accept BTC only if they can cash it out immediately... which is just passing the buck, really - but maybe sometimes the trader may keep a 'float' of BTC to spend on items elsewhere. Regardless, it's better to mine your BTC, receive BTC, then spend them in the BTC economy. Having pool operators directly converting mined BTC into other currencies / PMs would be disastrous for the BTC economy IMO - it'd put enormous downward pressure on the BTC rate.


Finance-geek hat off - I use Mick Bruce of MJB Monetary Metals. I've been buying from him since *before* bitcoin, using GBP. He's honest and reliable. But the recent issue with Intersango means he stopped accepting BTC last week - I've got a load burning a hole in my pocket so I ought to contact him to see if anything has changed... Next day UK postage, he's never let me down.

I'm being nice here - didn't want to give this info out on open forum as he only has a limited stock and *I* want it available for *me* to buy with my bitcoins. Cheesy I have no affiliation with Mick - just a satisfied regular customer.

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
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November 08, 2011, 01:53:49 PM
 #4527

However, I was just trying to change payout address on the NMC when I got a big warning note about "You have pending request for changing Namecoin wallet to:" and in there an email that doesn't belong to me. How do I go about changing that email? It does seem to send a confirmation mail to that address, and I most certainly won't get it.

Are you saying that your account is registered on email which isn't yours?  Please PM me your nickname, your correct email and also email which you see in your confirmation request.

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November 08, 2011, 02:58:44 PM
 #4528

mining for gold/silver does sound interesting. 
I've been doing this since the very very beginning of my mining exploits, back with slush's pool in actual fact.

Every bitcoin I've mined has been spent on silver and gold coins.

Having a direct link from the pool would be a compelling reason to join back up here, but of course, actual rates and types of gold/silver coin would be an issue. Does slush *really* want to get into the bullion dealing business?

BTW - for those seeking gold, nice small bullion-grade coins are the Mexican 2 and 2.5 peso coins. At current rates, they're costing me around 40-50 BTC each, which is achievable with a smallish mining setup every week. Seeing a gold coin appear in the post every week makes this mad enterprise worth it.

Whether the constant extraction of value from the BTC economy to precious metal bullion is good for the Bitcoin economy is a question best moved to the Economy forum... (the answer is no, it's not that good for all miners to be doing this). For that reason alone, it'd probably be best for the pools to get out of the 'extract value' business and let miners pay other Bitcoin-accepting merchants for their bullion, as it increases the BTC velocity and viability of the currency. If all miners simply cash out from the pool directly, then the value of mining will crash very quickly. All sellers and no buyers - this is a very serious issue BTW.

Where are you getting the coins from mate, since I am in the UK too. Thanks !

This is the same with NMC -> automatically being to BTC. Price will crash soon. We  need to unload the BTC for $$$ with precision. It is a bit like quantitative easing Smiley
It's not really like QE but I won't put my fixed income geek hat on and bore you to death with shifting the maturity profile of outstanding sovereign debt in order to alter the duration and hopefully reduce the yield of short-term debt, allowing cheaper financing for banks at the cost of 'kicking the can' and stoking inflation. Oooops, just have. Sorry.

NMC to BTC is an almost certain crash because of exactly what I said (and you re-iterated) - without a thriving *trade* using the currency, and just sellers cashing out for other currencies, you've effectively got a trading pit full of sellers and no buyers. The only buyers would be speculators, and I can't see many reasons to speculate on NMC with a constantly-fading value unless you can naked short them, which should be illegal. Regular shorts require borrowing the NMC to begin with, creating a buyer and reducing the profit in the short (in a simple market like NMC).

I'm still concerned about the miners-offloading issue with BTC, but there is at least a regular *trade* in BTC and people buying the currency to use in purchasing things they don't want recorded on credit cards / bank accounts (even legal stuff, like gold, causes nervousness - as slush said, European nations are tightening down on personal bullion purchases - requiring reporting to govt - and the USA, of course, has the spectre of Roosevelt and the 1933 gold confiscation... I'd like to see Obama try that *these* days given that American gold-bugs tend to be long on copper and lead Wink too).

Equally, if we spend our mined BTC at a BTC-accepting bullion trader, then there's *some* hope that this will keep the BTC circulating. I know that most bullion traders accept BTC only if they can cash it out immediately... which is just passing the buck, really - but maybe sometimes the trader may keep a 'float' of BTC to spend on items elsewhere. Regardless, it's better to mine your BTC, receive BTC, then spend them in the BTC economy. Having pool operators directly converting mined BTC into other currencies / PMs would be disastrous for the BTC economy IMO - it'd put enormous downward pressure on the BTC rate.


Finance-geek hat off - I use Mick Bruce of MJB Monetary Metals. I've been buying from him since *before* bitcoin, using GBP. He's honest and reliable. But the recent issue with Intersango means he stopped accepting BTC last week - I've got a load burning a hole in my pocket so I ought to contact him to see if anything has changed... Next day UK postage, he's never let me down.

I'm being nice here - didn't want to give this info out on open forum as he only has a limited stock and *I* want it available for *me* to buy with my bitcoins. Cheesy I have no affiliation with Mick - just a satisfied regular customer.

I have dealt with Mick Bruce as well (and will in the future) and can second all you have said about him.
I would offer my services as regards to distributing gold and silver to miners.
If I could agree on, say, austrian harmonies or 1g gold bars (so i can standardize my restocking for better prices)...?

Shipping to continental Europe is ~5€ for registered mail, one would have to take this into account. I would also have to remodel my shop as to "auto-trigger" purchases^^

I am turning quite some of the BTC I make around since I do have to restock - but I am also an avid SPENDER of bitcoin (airVPN, bitcointorrentz, and playing on GLBSE)...

If there really is interest in this, I'm game.


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November 08, 2011, 03:01:32 PM
 #4529

However, I was just trying to change payout address on the NMC when I got a big warning note about "You have pending request for changing Namecoin wallet to:" and in there an email that doesn't belong to me. How do I go about changing that email? It does seem to send a confirmation mail to that address, and I most certainly won't get it.

Are you saying that your account is registered on email which isn't yours?  Please PM me your nickname, your correct email and also email which you see in your confirmation request.
Just to clear things up. Nothing wrong with slush's pool. Just errors on my part.

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
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November 08, 2011, 04:00:55 PM
 #4530

bottom line:
If you not hashing fast enough at some point the rate of declineing payoff will exceed the shares your miner can submit and you loose to the big boys (especially when's hard to find a share)

You are quite wrong about that because you misunderstand how a proportional pool works.

You will get less variance with a PPS pool but a lower average payout. PPS pools need to give you a lower average payout by design as they are covering the variance.



So I guess I DID NOT see it happen in a 3 h period on a 6h block yesterday
guess it was a mirage

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November 08, 2011, 04:04:58 PM
 #4531

So I guess I DID NOT see it happen in a 3 h period on a 6h block yesterday

Yes, you see, but you don't understand. It works also on other side - when you connect in the middle of 6h block, you'll get complete reward as if you has been mining for all 6 hours. So - where's the problem? Everything averages out, it's just your mind who don't accept such concept. Sorry. If you don't like my pool, pick another, but stop trolling here. Thank you.

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November 08, 2011, 04:22:40 PM
 #4532

So I guess I DID NOT see it happen in a 3 h period on a 6h block yesterday guess it was a mirage

3 hours isn't an average of anything with variance that is inherent in hashing.

Tell you what come back in 3 weeks.  I will show my # of shares and revenue.  You show your # of shares and revenue.  Then everyone can laugh at how you decided to throw away 10% 17% (forgot about merged mining) of your hashing power for nothing.
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November 08, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
 #4533

If you don't like my pool, pick another, but stop trolling here. Thank you.

Yes, please.  I don't like having to check in here just to see people fighting over what is the best pool etc. Start another thread for that.
I wish this would just be a thread letting users know about important issues with the pool.
I don't want to turn notifications off because I want to hear about any news like that. 
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November 08, 2011, 05:37:05 PM
 #4534

bottom line:
If you not hashing fast enough at some point the rate of declineing payoff will exceed the shares your miner can submit and you loose to the big boys (especially when's hard to find a share)

You are quite wrong about that because you misunderstand how a proportional pool works.

You will get less variance with a PPS pool but a lower average payout. PPS pools need to give you a lower average payout by design as they are covering the variance.



What about 0% fee PPS pools like ABC pool etc. !? Diminished earnings compared to prop system or not ?

For the love of God! Doesn't anyone inform themselves anymore @ wikipedia and mining guides? A pps pool with 0% fee would be great, except the pool will go bankrupt in no time. A ppl pool always take takes the full risk and may actually end up paying out much more to miners than it is making as a whole.

And for those other comments, what is the deal with that fanboy naming? Has this become the new standard 'Secret of Monkey Island'TM answer if you can't counter an argument on the basis of matter of fact? ;-) No offence.

I mine @ Slush not because of an awesome man-crush on czech programmers but simply because this pool offers low fees, long polling, merged mining and a way to counter pool hopping. I honestly liked BtcGuild but found out that my payouts at 0% prop were somehow less than at Slush's pool over the time of two months. And during that, there were downtimes over there as well. I tried deepbit (10%) and quickly decided against it, if you are willing to go pps, surely there are cheaper alternatives since variance is not a problem with any pps, or is it? I tried other pps pools, but they still have quite high fees and no merged mining. If they do offer merged mining and pps, they have hidden transfer fees that sum up to 10% again (NMCBit).

At least we know why people choose deepbit now, they didn't understand the entire variance thing yet and need to educate themselves a bit more. Bigger pool isn't always better, quite literally.

Well then I don't see Ars, abcpool and eligius going bankrupt any time soon yet they offer 0% fee PPS with MM too !? Maybe they are just about to go bankrupt Smiley
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November 08, 2011, 05:44:31 PM
 #4535

bottom line:
If you not hashing fast enough at some point the rate of declineing payoff will exceed the shares your miner can submit and you loose to the big boys (especially when's hard to find a share)

You are quite wrong about that because you misunderstand how a proportional pool works.

You will get less variance with a PPS pool but a lower average payout. PPS pools need to give you a lower average payout by design as they are covering the variance.



What about 0% fee PPS pools like ABC pool etc. !? Diminished earnings compared to prop system or not ?

For the love of God! Doesn't anyone inform themselves anymore @ wikipedia and mining guides? A pps pool with 0% fee would be great, except the pool will go bankrupt in no time. A ppl pool always take takes the full risk and may actually end up paying out much more to miners than it is making as a whole.

And for those other comments, what is the deal with that fanboy naming? Has this become the new standard 'Secret of Monkey Island'TM answer if you can't counter an argument on the basis of matter of fact? ;-) No offence.

I mine @ Slush not because of an awesome man-crush on czech programmers but simply because this pool offers low fees, long polling, merged mining and a way to counter pool hopping. I honestly liked BtcGuild but found out that my payouts at 0% prop were somehow less than at Slush's pool over the time of two months. And during that, there were downtimes over there as well. I tried deepbit (10%) and quickly decided against it, if you are willing to go pps, surely there are cheaper alternatives since variance is not a problem with any pps, or is it? I tried other pps pools, but they still have quite high fees and no merged mining. If they do offer merged mining and pps, they have hidden transfer fees that sum up to 10% again (NMCBit).

At least we know why people choose deepbit now, they didn't understand the entire variance thing yet and need to educate themselves a bit more. Bigger pool isn't always better, quite literally.

Well then I don't see Ars, abcpool and eligius going bankrupt any time soon yet they offer 0% fee PPS with MM too !? Maybe they are just about to go bankrupt Smiley

Ars and Eligius aren't PPS.
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November 08, 2011, 05:45:45 PM
 #4536

Yes they are offering that but look at it this way, but it all balances out over the long run.  On a short round I earn around 0.013 - 0.015, and the same on a long round.  I might earn more on a long round using pps at elugius but I earn alot less on the short round so it averages out.

Since the hardware failure I have contributed about 24000 shares to slush and been paid out around 1.1 btc (rounded to the nearest tenth)  if I had contributed those same 24000 shares to elugius I would have recieved 0.99 btc a 10 percent difference.  I'm only mining at 240mh/s

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November 08, 2011, 05:51:10 PM
 #4537

I don't want to turn notifications off because I want to hear about any news like that. 

This brings up another point, and that is this: Slush, could you set up a locked thread that no one can comment in, that will allow you to only post status updates and so forth? That would be a lot nicer for various announcements and so forth. Don't know whether that is possible on this board or not though.

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November 08, 2011, 06:07:44 PM
 #4538

This brings up another point, and that is this: Slush, could you set up a locked thread that no one can comment in, that will allow you to only post status updates and so forth? That would be a lot nicer for various announcements and so forth. Don't know whether that is possible on this board or not though.

I'm in process to moving pool thread to another forum completely. I'm missing a lot of features here and you're right that thread with 230 pages is a mess...

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November 08, 2011, 06:15:09 PM
 #4539

Yes they are offering that but look at it this way, but it all balances out over the long run.  On a short round I earn around 0.013 - 0.015, and the same on a long round.  I might earn more on a long round using pps at elugius but I earn alot less on the short round so it averages out.

You're watching it in wrong way. Don't follow reward *per round*, it doesn't give you almost any valuable information. Per-round reward is affected by too many factors like pool size and rewarding system. And also - who cares about reward PER ROUND? Isn't important reward PER TIME? So follow daily, weekly or monthly income, it is much better measure of pool performance.

240Mhash is enough to see very stable daily or weekly payouts, but maybe not enough to see per round payouts. But again - who cares? Really anybody need to earn the same amount of bitcents every minute or every hour?

Quote
Since the hardware failure

I'm sorry, but you cannot compare fully-working pool with pool which is under reinstall. For example I has been tuning server parameters for few hours with only a half of traffic, the other half has been cut off on firewall. So this is one of reasons why some users saw weird numbers in round rewards during the outage. However I fixed those rounds later by recalculating rounds with proportional method.

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November 08, 2011, 07:05:47 PM
 #4540

So I guess I DID NOT see it happen in a 3 h period on a 6h block yesterday guess it was a mirage

3 hours isn't an average of anything with variance that is inherent in hashing.

Tell you what come back in 3 weeks.  I will show my # of shares and revenue.  You show your # of shares and revenue.  Then everyone can laugh at how you decided to throw away 10% 17% (forgot about merged mining) of your hashing power for nothing.

Well my daily avg with deepbit (pay per share) for the last 5 days is 29% higher than Slushes daily avg for the last 4 months  It gets even greater if I don't go back for 4 mo with slush but I attribute that to increased difficulty

Quite a difference for paying what you say @ deepbit

And for Slush
  I find it interesting that you would resort to name calling me a troll because I'm state something that I observed about your pool.

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