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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [2.5+ EH] Slush Pool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 4327311 times)
slush
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October 23, 2011, 01:25:49 PM
 #4121

Why would anyone NOT be mining on slush's pool right now?

Forgot to say that 100% agree with you ;-)

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dishwara
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October 23, 2011, 01:51:59 PM
 #4122

Tor is a good & brilliant choice.
It may not be good for file p2p downloading, coz of huge continuous heavy bandwidth requirement.
But may be good for mining. coz their is no need for huge bandwidth for mining.
Only problem is needing instant continuous connection. 

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Thralen
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October 23, 2011, 02:15:19 PM
 #4123

Slush:

Is there an issue with payout on BTC right now? Just curious because I had my threshold set to .25 and it was working fine but... Sometime overnight I passed that threshold on 'confirmed reward' (I think it was probably 20 or more confirmations ago) and it is just sitting there, showing in the the my account section but not sending. Since we are down to 10 confirmations left on that 8 hour block from yesterday and the .25 was confirmed and exceeded before that block I think it has been sitting there for a while. I was just wondering if you had set a minimum threshold or if there might be another issue. I just don't recall it taking so long in the past so thought I'd ask.

Thralen

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mitchel
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October 23, 2011, 03:18:24 PM
 #4124

Slush:

Is there an issue with payout on BTC right now? Just curious because I had my threshold set to .25 and it was working fine but... Sometime overnight I passed that threshold on 'confirmed reward' (I think it was probably 20 or more confirmations ago) and it is just sitting there, showing in the the my account section but not sending. Since we are down to 10 confirmations left on that 8 hour block from yesterday and the .25 was confirmed and exceeded before that block I think it has been sitting there for a while. I was just wondering if you had set a minimum threshold or if there might be another issue. I just don't recall it taking so long in the past so thought I'd ask.

Thralen

I second this post.  I to am having a problem with payout...it has gone .33 over the payout threshold without paying out.  This is BTC only though as i have had 2 NMC payouts in the last 12 hours where i have had no BTC payouts.
sadpandatech
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October 23, 2011, 05:23:29 PM
 #4125

Tor is a good & brilliant choice.
It may not be good for file p2p downloading, coz of huge continuous heavy bandwidth requirement.
But may be good for mining. coz their is no need for huge bandwidth for mining.
Only problem is needing instant continuous connection. 

  Definetly agree on the badnwidth issue.  On the connection issue; you are able to pick your exit nodes which should allow one to find nodes that have the best connection between them and the pool of choice.


  Cheers

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
Tartarus
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October 23, 2011, 05:44:01 PM
 #4126

Highly experimental feature; site: lcir2ce5utha5xoo.onion, mining: lcir2ce5utha5xoo.onion:8332

Note: At this moment you need to turn off long polling on profile page for mining over tor. There's 30-minute cache of settings for already used worker in pool core, so I recommend you to create blank new worker "tor" with LP disabled. If there will be enough interest, I'll modify pool to support LP & Ntime rolling over Tor as well (which dramatically improve Tor mining experience).

Let me know if you're interested!

So I guess for now we throw torify in front of the miner and if this takes off wait for (or help with) patching miners to try and proxy .onion domains?  Or maybe I should say, adding a new user, turning off LP and doing torify python phoenix.py ... Just Works.  And cgminer uses curl which supports SOCKS (and of course see the Tor FAQ about SOCKS and potential privacy issues) so it should Just Work too, but I haven't fiddled with that yet.

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Jack of Diamonds
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October 23, 2011, 05:52:38 PM
 #4127

What do you think about paying protection money to a hypothetical multi-gbps attacker
at a rate of say -50 - -80% of what a datacenter will take for professional anti-DDoS/mitigation services?

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Thralen
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October 23, 2011, 06:12:48 PM
 #4128

What do you think about paying protection money to a hypothetical multi-gbps attacker
at a rate of say -50 - -80% of what a datacenter will take for professional anti-DDoS/mitigation services?

Logical problem here. That might work for the first, but what happens when the second, third, fourth, ad nauseum shows up and wants their cut. Won't work.

thralen

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Jack of Diamonds
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October 23, 2011, 06:14:18 PM
 #4129

What do you think about paying protection money to a hypothetical multi-gbps attacker
at a rate of say -50 - -80% of what a datacenter will take for professional anti-DDoS/mitigation services?

Logical problem here. That might work for the first, but what happens when the second, third, fourth, ad nauseum shows up and wants their cut. Won't work.

thralen

10-100gbps attacker has methods to deter other, smaller parties from conflicting with his financial interests.

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notawake
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October 23, 2011, 06:17:59 PM
 #4130

What do you think about paying protection money to a hypothetical multi-gbps attacker
at a rate of say -50 - -80% of what a datacenter will take for professional anti-DDoS/mitigation services?
That sounds like a terrible idea.


Logical problem here. That might work for the first, but what happens when the second, third, fourth, ad nauseum shows up and wants their cut. Won't work.

thralen

Technically speaking, it's not just multiple attackers. If someone like slush went that route, all each attacker has to do is create more attacker identities and keep threatening him until he goes bankrupt/quits.

10-100gbps attacker has methods to deter other, smaller parties from conflicting with his financial interests.

I suppose you could hire an attacker (perhaps also with performance incentives) to attack the other attackers, but there's a huge legal risk there and the attacker makes profits that can be reinvested at a later time into attacking slush, meaning the attacker has a better position against slush over time. Also keep in mind that the attacker is likely stealing resources (i.e. using trojans/malware to steal computer and internet access for a botnet) and slush may not be able to steal, so a successful strategy for slush would probably focus on avoidance/hiding rather than interaction with DDOS attackers.

I think the tor idea is a much better idea. It can probably be extended into giving out an onion address to each user and hiding the pool server's IPs. If there's a DDOS against one onion address and attack packets reach the mining IPs, just nullroute that onion address. Only issues would be the web server IP (or onion address) would probably have to be known to many for signups, beginner info, etc. and reliance on the tor network. Tor does have some DDOS protections built-in, as described here.

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Eveofwar
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October 23, 2011, 06:19:02 PM
 #4131

What do you think about paying protection money to a hypothetical multi-gbps attacker
at a rate of say -50 - -80% of what a datacenter will take for professional anti-DDoS/mitigation services?

Logical problem here. That might work for the first, but what happens when the second, third, fourth, ad nauseum shows up and wants their cut. Won't work.

thralen

10-100gbps attacker has methods to deter other, smaller parties from conflicting with his financial interests.

So if I'm a 100 gbps attacker, and you are a 100 gbps attacker...how do you deter me from destroying slush ?

Do you have my IP ?  Do you have my contact info ?  Do you have anyway of causing any detriment to me ?

Nope.
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October 23, 2011, 06:21:13 PM
 #4132

What do you think about paying protection money to a hypothetical multi-gbps attacker
at a rate of say -50 - -80% of what a datacenter will take for professional anti-DDoS/mitigation services?

Logical problem here. That might work for the first, but what happens when the second, third, fourth, ad nauseum shows up and wants their cut. Won't work.

thralen

10-100gbps attacker has methods to deter other, smaller parties from conflicting with his financial interests.

And you think that currently and in the future there is only one of that size. You think that he would go out of his way to stop others trying the same? Remember, no honor amongst thieves and someone running a botnet of that size is surely a thief...

Note I didn't even begin to cover the moral issue there. I wouldn't mine at a pool that was paying off attackers. I bet lots of others wouldn't either. I think the Tor option is a much better route to follow as mentioned by Notawake.

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mitchel
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October 23, 2011, 06:36:13 PM
 #4133

so...is there a problem with payouts?
Jack of Diamonds
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October 23, 2011, 06:45:37 PM
 #4134

A malicious attacker needs not to target the pool or hidden service;
since TOR is a relatively low bandwidth network it takes very few resources to grind all active onion routers to a halt.

All active router info is publicly available at directory server.
Every router merely knows the last and next hop, the origin of attack cannot be traced and it only shows up as large amounts of traffic & appears as a normal router

DoS against the entire TOR network is also cheaper than a well hosted single site with high bandwidth.
Even a 20gbps attack would render the network unusably slow. It is a brute force method but it will achieve the goal & make a pool unreachable.

It only needs to last as long as people switch to other pools, and if they come back, target the network again.

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Thralen
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October 23, 2011, 07:20:03 PM
 #4135

A malicious attacker needs not to target the pool or hidden service;
since TOR is a relatively low bandwidth network it takes very few resources to grind all active onion routers to a halt.

All active router info is publicly available at directory server.
Every router merely knows the last and next hop, the origin of attack cannot be traced and it only shows up as large amounts of traffic & appears as a normal router

DoS against the entire TOR network is also cheaper than a well hosted single site with high bandwidth.
Even a 20gbps attack would render the network unusably slow. It is a brute force method but it will achieve the goal & make a pool unreachable.

It only needs to last as long as people switch to other pools, and if they come back, target the network again.

So obviously, your "solution" which is, in essence, advocating for extortion, is the way to go? *shakes head*

Be careful, next step would be a bitcoin mafia and the next thing you know people will be waking up with the heads of servers in bed with them...

In history, if you look for it, traditionally when you give in to extortion they then try to extort more, and more... and then some more. Until there is nothing left. You can always count on human nature, so long as you know that human nature includes a massive helping of greed.

Thralen

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Jack of Diamonds
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October 23, 2011, 07:27:11 PM
 #4136

Mt. Gox's strategy with a few alterations would be perfect from a financial standpoint (maximum profit, lowest expenses, and highest uptime)

Pay ~30% of Prolexic's charged rates to the biggest attacker, with an agreement of keeping other attackers away.
If 'offender' breaks the deal by demanding a bigger cut or by not being hostile towards other attackers, you siphon the extra to Prolexic and give nothing to the 'offender'.

'Offender' is forced to choose between earning $0 per month or convincing you to accept back the earlier rate, maybe lower.

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mitchel
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October 23, 2011, 07:30:22 PM
 #4137

so....is slush aware of the payout issue?

Thralen
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October 23, 2011, 07:46:32 PM
 #4138

Mt. Gox's strategy with a few alterations would be perfect from a financial standpoint (maximum profit, lowest expenses, and highest uptime)

Pay ~30% of Prolexic's charged rates to the biggest attacker, with an agreement of keeping other attackers away.
If 'offender' breaks the deal by demanding a bigger cut or by not being hostile towards other attackers, you siphon the extra to Prolexic and give nothing to the 'offender'.

'Offender' is forced to choose between earning $0 per month or convincing you to accept back the earlier rate, maybe lower.

or offender says "hell with them, I'll teach them a lesson" and puts them down repeatedly, potentially driving them out of business. That was the reason they were paying in the first place, to stay online. Then the offender picks up the newer companies springing up to take over from the first and demands a bigger cut saying "Look what I did to them, you can avoid it if..."

It is extortion, plain and simple. Here, let me give you the definition:

extort:verb: to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power

and this is what you say is the perfect plan? Perchance, what do you consider the worst plan? Actually standing by your principals and trying to work out a different solution? Just sayin...

And on that note, I think it is time to change to my secondary pool until Slush is back and figures out what is up with payments.

Thralen

Supporting bitcoin as best I can with 1. mining, 2. buying with bitcoin, 3. selling (or trying to) for bitcoin. If you make a donation to:  1MahzUUEYJrZ4VbPRm2h5itGZKEguGVZK1  I'll get it into circulation.
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October 23, 2011, 07:52:21 PM
 #4139

A malicious attacker needs not to target the pool or hidden service;
since TOR is a relatively low bandwidth network it takes very few resources to grind all active onion routers to a halt.

All active router info is publicly available at directory server.
Every router merely knows the last and next hop, the origin of attack cannot be traced and it only shows up as large amounts of traffic & appears as a normal router

DoS against the entire TOR network is also cheaper than a well hosted single site with high bandwidth.
Even a 20gbps attack would render the network unusably slow. It is a brute force method but it will achieve the goal & make a pool unreachable.

It only needs to last as long as people switch to other pools, and if they come back, target the network again.

I think you are underestimating the Tor network.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Tor has some DDOS protections built-in, as described here. These will make many forms of DDOS over Tor impossible or very hard to do. Tor only allows TCP connections through the network.

Currently, according to this source, the Tor network is about 8.5 Gb/s. Obviously, this is less than 20 Gbps, but the Tor bandwidth is distributed across more than 2500 servers with multiple ISPs across the world. This arrangement would be cost prohibitive for slush to acquire on his own. Instead of messing with 1-2 ISPs, an attacker has to mess with 100s of them, including Amazon (yes, I saw some EC2 instances in the list) and universities, which tend to have some of the best connections. This will decrease the chance that the attack will work.

If the attacker is using a botnet, there is a higher chance that, for example, compromised machines with SBC Global IPs will be attacking Tor nodes that also have SBC Global IPs. This ISP now has an incentive to investigate and disconnect the compromised machines. Additionally, each ISP has it's own DDOS defense strategy. Some may fail, but some will work.

The public directory does not include Tor bridges, which further adds security to the Tor network.

Mt. Gox's strategy with a few alterations would be perfect from a financial standpoint (maximum profit, lowest expenses, and highest uptime)

Pay ~30% of Prolexic's charged rates to the biggest attacker, with an agreement of keeping other attackers away.
If 'offender' breaks the deal by demanding a bigger cut or by not being hostile towards other attackers, you siphon the extra to Prolexic and give nothing to the 'offender'.

'Offender' is forced to choose between earning $0 per month or convincing you to accept back the earlier rate, maybe lower.

I didn't know that Mt. Gox had that strategy, but you also have to consider motive. It appears that a major attacker would want to take down a mining pool so that the difficulty goes down and the attacker makes (or at least expects to make) more money. The attacker may even be aiming for 51% network power. So it may be more profitable for the attacker to continue attacking rather than take a relatively small amount of money from slush. But this is less likely to apply for Mt. Gox since attacks on exchanges would drive down the value of Bitcoin.

I also don't understand how one attacker can keep away other attackers given that attackers usually don't reveal themselves to each other. Also, the attacker isn't "forced to choose between earning $0 per month or convincing you to accept back the earlier rate, maybe lower" because they can choose to take the money they earned through extortion and invest it in attacking you. That's usually how extortion works. Once the gravy train starts flowing, it's hard to stop it.

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mitchel
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October 23, 2011, 08:00:40 PM
 #4140

A malicious attacker needs not to target the pool or hidden service;
since TOR is a relatively low bandwidth network it takes very few resources to grind all active onion routers to a halt.

All active router info is publicly available at directory server.
Every router merely knows the last and next hop, the origin of attack cannot be traced and it only shows up as large amounts of traffic & appears as a normal router

DoS against the entire TOR network is also cheaper than a well hosted single site with high bandwidth.
Even a 20gbps attack would render the network unusably slow. It is a brute force method but it will achieve the goal & make a pool unreachable.

It only needs to last as long as people switch to other pools, and if they come back, target the network again.

Are you an attacker Jack of Diamonds?
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