Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 08:46:50 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 [145] 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 ... 376 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 776177 times)
DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1974


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
May 01, 2013, 10:36:09 PM
 #2881

There's a lot of support requests lately from newbies and ex-PPS miners who mined 12 or 24 hours on BitMinter and were horrified by low payouts. Some even think I am scamming them.

Short version: BitMinter pays you much more than most pools in the long run, but there may be some days with low payouts and payouts are delayed several hours after you do some work.

Long explanation:

DELAY: On BitMinter your work gets paid when we find new blocks as long as it is in one of the 10 latest shifts. Since 10 shifts take about 7.5 hours currently, that's how long it takes for your work to be fully paid. If you also turned off the prepay perk then you must wait for the blocks to be confirmed as well before you get income from them. That takes about 20 hours.

VARIANCE: In addition to this there is variance when mining with a PPLNS reward system. This means you get high payouts on a lucky day (when we find many blocks) and low payouts on an unlucky day.

BOTTOM LINE: Over time you will make more money mining with 1% fee on BitMinter than 5% fee on a PPS pool. If the occassional low payout makes you nervous then you may want to go with a PPS pool, even if you lose a lot of money in the long run. But remember that PPS pools in general don't pay out transaction fees, so you lose 1% to 2% more. Most don't have namecoins, so you lose over 8% there too (with current namecoin prices).

What looks like a 5% fee is then in reality a 15% fee. That is NOT better pay than BitMinter.

There's 3 reasons to choose a 15% fee over a 1% fee:
1. You desperately need the payout very quickly
2. You don't want money
3. You don't understand how the reward systems work

If it is #1 or #2 then fine. But please don't switch to a 15% fee pool because you don't yet understand what's going on.

If you thought you were shocked at the payouts when you didn't realize there's a delay, imagine my surprise at seeing miners pay a 15% fee with a big smile on their face while they tell me that my payouts suck. It boggles the mind.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
willphase
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770


View Profile
May 01, 2013, 11:06:48 PM
 #2882

Most don't have namecoins, so you lose over 8% there too (with current namecoin prices).

In fact, closer to 11% Smiley - source.

Will

GuiltySpark343
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
May 02, 2013, 02:14:03 AM
 #2883

Where is a reputable place to exchange Namecoin for BTC or fiat?

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Ƀ:17wbDetEw2aESM5oWXbm5ih9NSdDruyWNT
Epoch
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 917



View Profile
May 02, 2013, 02:14:47 AM
 #2884

Where is a reputable place to exchange Namecoin for BTC or fiat?
https://btc-e.com/

BTC: 1DJVUnLuPA2bERTkyeir8bKn1eSoRCrYvx
NMC: NFcfHSBBnq622pAr1Xoh9KtnBPA5CUn6id
LazyOtto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476


View Profile
May 02, 2013, 02:22:55 AM
 #2885

Where is a reputable place to exchange Namecoin for BTC or fiat?
https://btc-e.com/
I have used btc-e.com to convert NMC to BTC.
juhakall
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 422



View Profile
May 02, 2013, 04:01:21 AM
 #2886

I can only agree with what DrHaribo explained above. Shift-based PPLNS is a very good payout method that is fair (hopping-proof) and has no risk for the pool operator. Because variance is experienced by users, not by the pool operator, DrHaribo can keep the fee very low. The method is also very easy to understand, compared to DGM. To be honest, I haven't looked into the newer methods with capped payouts, backpay or whatever. PPLNS works very well, and I've yet to hear anyone point out an actual flaw in it, only complaints that stem from misunderstanding.
organofcorti
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Poor impulse control.


View Profile WWW
May 02, 2013, 04:33:16 AM
 #2887

......and I've yet to hear anyone point out an actual flaw in it, only complaints that stem from misunderstanding.

PPLNS has no vowels in it. That's a flaw from my point of view. Makes it hard to pronounce. It's a flaw all reward methods (apart from PoT) seem to have, CPPSRB being the worst offender.

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
follow @oocBlog for new post notifications
juhakall
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 422



View Profile
May 02, 2013, 05:14:47 AM
 #2888

PPLNS has no vowels in it. That's a flaw from my point of view. Makes it hard to pronounce. It's a flaw all reward methods (apart from PoT) seem to have, CPPSRB being the worst offender.

Oh, now I see why the proportional method still has some support.
Newar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


https://gliph.me/hUF


View Profile
May 02, 2013, 05:17:22 AM
 #2889

I would like some numbers about the pool's luck (in the last day/week/long term/current block), or a line of the actual luck compared with the expected instead of all those dots.

A line of actual luck won't tell you anything unless you can compare it to something - for example a confidence interval of likely "luck" values. For the dots, if they look widely distributed and not bunched up the top or the bottom, then that's normal "luck".

The only accurate way to measure "luck" over a period of time to to work out the negative binomial CDF for the combined shares submitted for the combined blocks solved. Using that measure, BitMinter's weekly "luck" over the last months hasn't been outside the expected range.
How about an indicator on the side of the chart that would show the average of the dots? Or an average line?

OTC rating | GPG keyid 1DC91318EE785FDE | Gliph: lightning bicycle tree music | Mycelium, a swift & secure Bitcoin client for Android | LocalBitcoins
organofcorti
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Poor impulse control.


View Profile WWW
May 02, 2013, 05:24:20 AM
 #2890

PPLNS has no vowels in it. That's a flaw from my point of view. Makes it hard to pronounce. It's a flaw all reward methods (apart from PoT) seem to have, CPPSRB being the worst offender.

Oh, now I see why the proportional method still has some support.

Ah, I forgot about prop. And of course there's prop score, too. Why do you think people mine at Slush's pool? They can pronounce the reward method.

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
follow @oocBlog for new post notifications
matt4054
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134


BitcoinQueue.com


View Profile WWW
May 02, 2013, 03:32:34 PM
 #2891

Could anyone with more PPLNS experience than me tell us about how unlucky the pool has been over the last few days? Is this usual variance or not, and should we expect the "actual" rewards graph line to cross the "expected" line anytime soon?

I know about the theory behind PPLNS and why it should compensate naturally over time, I'm just trying to match theory and practice here Wink

Thanks for your feedback.

★ ⏳ BitcoinQueue.com β ★ 📈 Real-time Bitcoin Unconfirmed Transaction Queue Charts ⏳ ★ Forum Topic
willphase
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770


View Profile
May 02, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
 #2892

Could anyone with more PPLNS experience than me tell us about how unlucky the pool has been over the last few days? Is this usual variance or not, and should we expect the "actual" rewards graph line to cross the "expected" line anytime soon?

Go to https://bitminter.com/stats/rewards and then scroll down and look at the graph at the bottom.

If the green line is below the yellow line, then the pool is currently unlucky.  If the green line is above the yellow line, then the pool is currently lucky.

Will

GuiltySpark343
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
May 02, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
 #2893

If you scroll down that page further, a second chart shows cumulative payout. Seems like there is a huge variance in terms of expected avg payout and actual (4940 vs 4463 at the time of this post). That's nearly 10% below average!

Also note that the payout is hardly ever above average, and the rare times it is, does not appear to be 10% above.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Ƀ:17wbDetEw2aESM5oWXbm5ih9NSdDruyWNT
DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1974


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
May 02, 2013, 08:18:21 PM
 #2894

Also note that the payout is hardly ever above average, and the rare times it is, does not appear to be 10% above.

This page only shows the last 500 shifts. Payouts have sometimes been much higher than average. I have on my TODO list to make it possible to go back in time on that graph, but I haven't had time to add it yet.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1582


I charge NOTHING for current signature.


View Profile
May 02, 2013, 09:11:08 PM
 #2895

We had 22 blocks In a day about 2x normal.  That is about best I can remember . The best thing to do is go on this site.


https://bitclockers.com/calc 

wait for the difficulty to change it did on tue this week so  put in your hash and see what you should get 10 days in a row. My hash is 9Gh/s today I should earn .44919 coins. ship your coins off and set to 0.  then set your coins at 10x or in my case 4.4919  . 

 check every day  same time.


 after 24 hours your should be at .44919
 after 48 hours you should be at .89839   

 once the ten days are up see how close you are to the calculator..  then multiply by 1.1 why the nmc you earn are worth 10% more.  so if you earned 4.3 coins in 10 days and said damn I am short multiply by 1.1 and you are at 4.73 coins and that my friend would be a good 10 days. most pools charge more then bitminter.

i do advise you to put some money in asicminer if you can't get an asic you can get a share for about 1.2 btc   

most of my money is in gpu farms...... 7k
  then some in bfl .......................... 1.6k
then some in asicminer shares.............  0.5k  total of 9k invested . 

I have collected about 11k in coins.

██     Please support sidehack with his new miner project Send to :

1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr

 
 ██
Jcw188
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532

Carpe Diem


View Profile
May 02, 2013, 10:29:42 PM
 #2896

Entropy, is that true, has it been some months of lower than expected payout?  I was wondering why bitminter can do merged mining but slush can't on stratum...
DrHaribo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1974


Bitminter.com Operator


View Profile WWW
May 02, 2013, 10:30:50 PM
 #2897

How do you get NMC merged mining to work with stratum?

You'll have to ask other pools why they don't. There is nothing in the Stratum protocol to make merged mining any more difficult than it is with getwork and getblocktemplate. When I added Stratum and getblocktemplate I just didn't turn off merged mining.

Not all pools have their own software. Some run one mining server software they found on the net 2 years ago that supported getwork and merged mining, but isn't maintained anymore. Then they found a new one that does Stratum but not merged mining, and they installed that too. The result is a patchwork of unmaintained outdated software and a random feature set. Other pools do have their own software and just left out merged mining because the mergeable coins looked dead. That was a pretty good assessment too, until someone suddenly started buying very large amounts of namecoins, pushing the price higher than it had ever been before.

Do you send restart messages every time a new NMC block is created?

New work is pushed on Stratum when there is a new BTC or NMC block. New work is also pushed every 30 seconds to include new transactions.

That does not imply a restart, however, as there is no progress when mining. If you lost the lottery every week for 10 years it doesn't mean that your chances of winning are now magically higher.

I have often wondered if there is some correlation between that and the lower than expected payout that has plagued this pool for some months.

I didn't have the impression we have been plagued with bad luck for months. I don't see that when I look at organofcorti's weekly pool stats.

And no, changing the data to be hashed does not cause bad luck. That's what your Stratum miner does when it creates new work anyway, it creates new data to be hashed. It doesn't even matter whether you change the entire merkle root or just 1 bit in the timestamp to create new work. Changing just 1 bit in the data being hashed will cause many changes in the resulting hash. This is called the avalanche effect.

Let me put it this way: if you can find a way to generate new work in a way that affects your success rate when mining, then you have found a loop hole in SHA-256 and you'll be a rich miner.

I'm not saying it's impossible that we randomly bumped into a weakness in SHA-256. But I don't think it's likely. It's not time to call Bruce Schneier just yet.  Wink

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
willphase
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770


View Profile
May 02, 2013, 10:46:52 PM
 #2898

If you scroll down that page further, a second chart shows cumulative payout. Seems like there is a huge variance in terms of expected avg payout and actual (4940 vs 4463 at the time of this post). That's nearly 10% below average!

Also note that the payout is hardly ever above average, and the rare times it is, does not appear to be 10% above.

Indeed - that's the graph I was pointing at (the one at the top is too confusing and doesn't really allow any meaningful interpretation) - that bottom graph is only last 500 shifts so maybe last 14-15 days worth, and I agree that right now the luck of the pool is bad.  Remember even if the pool is 10% more unlucky than average at the moment, you still get the +9% from namecoin, and over time (longer than two weeks) the luck all evens out.

Will

GuiltySpark343
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98



View Profile
May 03, 2013, 12:29:06 AM
 #2899

On a separate topic ... any advantages of using BitMinter's Javascript client miner, versus BFGMiner on stratum?

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Ƀ:17wbDetEw2aESM5oWXbm5ih9NSdDruyWNT
matt4054
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134


BitcoinQueue.com


View Profile WWW
May 03, 2013, 05:36:25 AM
 #2900

Here are some figures that I get from the 2nd graph on the rewards page, and from the table on the shifts page.

As I write this, the graph starts at shift 14348, that was on 2013-04-17 11:05 i.e. 15 days ago.

The pool has never quite been lucky since then.

Starting at shift 14670, 2013-04-27 04:23 i.e. about a week ago, the pool has started running unlucky, more than I have ever seen in the past (but I have only joined about 2 months ago). That is why I asked the question about variance and expected "recovery" time before the actual rewards catch up with the expected ones.

I think that the theoretical, correct answer to the question "how long before we catch up" is: you cannot know when, you can only know that it *will* happen in the future. So maybe I should rephrase the question:

From our current "unlucky" status, how long would it take before we have statistically more than 50% probability to catch up with the expected rewards? I believe this question can be (formally) answered. I'm not really expecting it, but if someone is both able and willing to calculate or even approximate it, I would find it useful and appreciate it :-)

★ ⏳ BitcoinQueue.com β ★ 📈 Real-time Bitcoin Unconfirmed Transaction Queue Charts ⏳ ★ Forum Topic
Pages: « 1 ... 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 [145] 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 ... 376 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!