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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 139413 times)
Lutpin
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Goodbye, Z.


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January 27, 2018, 11:20:04 AM
 #1501

I'm not interesed in that kind of activity, thank you, but if you're willing to pay you can easily find someone to do the work.
You were (maybe just indirectly) complaining about the new system, I've addressed those complaints. Obviously, I'm not going to pay you, or anyone, for suggesting posts to receive merit. Get real.

And you're missing the point of my original post that you quoted. The fact that there are quality posts not merited is already a flow to the system.
Flaw, not flow. And after two/three days, that is to be expected.

The fact that they need to be constantly spotted and recommended, is a flaw. What if they won't get ever recommended?
Or does it further increase interaction by people sharing good posts, recommending them, and thus adds more value, instead of taking anything away?

There are some very bad people like me, very evil people out there, who maybe prefers not to make rank up possibile competitors in future bounties or because they prefer to give precious merit points to his friends rather than to some excellent post of some unknow guy?
Then you dont merit them and someone else does. You can't merit everyone, you arent expected to.


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redsn0w
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January 27, 2018, 11:22:10 AM
 #1502

theymos

I don't know if someone already asked this, but is there any possibility to remove a certain merit point or not?
codemanX
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January 27, 2018, 11:22:49 AM
 #1503

I decided that the previous allocation was too unfair in this area, so everyone with activity >= 775 got 500 more merit if they didn't already have 1000 merit (and also Lutpin). No extra sMerit, though.

That's a wise decision. To make it even wiser something similar should be applied also for some or all of the lower ranks who are close to the next rank. Perhaps those who already have 75% of the necessary activity for the next rank or perhaps 90% or 99% or whatever. My view is that 75% would be optimal. The point is to implement more fairness in the process of switching to the new rules. Such a decision would cut down a lot of polemics and frustration across the forum. Especially Full Members who had to turn Senior or Seniors who had to turn Heros in days with the actual rules have been too much penalized, suddenly missing 150 or 250 merits for the next rank which they were about to achieve. To receive so many merits could now take them years, as they are so scarce.

Agreed, that would be awesome and much fairer for lower ranks too!

Further, shouldn‘t it be rewarded with Merit from the Mods when we report something like that?:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2096780.msg29023610#msg29023610
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January 27, 2018, 11:27:50 AM
 #1504

theymos

I don't know if someone already asked this, but is there any possibility to remove a certain merit point or not?

Yup, there is.

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

faucet used to be profitable
redsn0w
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January 27, 2018, 11:33:10 AM
 #1505

theymos

I don't know if someone already asked this, but is there any possibility to remove a certain merit point or not?

Yup, there is.

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

I mean, if I give you a merit point and tomorrow I want to remove it (for a certain reason) I can't do it because the actual system doesn't allow you.



Lutpin
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January 27, 2018, 11:39:34 AM
 #1506

I mean, if I give you a merit point and tomorrow I want to remove it (for a certain reason) I can't do it because the actual system doesn't allow you.
I suspect this is by design, it gives merits a bit more impact than a simple "like" (to which they are often compared).
Also likely (at least part of) the reason why you have to visit a new page, and once again confirm a merit rating you send, so you cannot do this by accident.

Further, it could become quite the mess with sMerit being awarded to the person you rate, and how these are reversed.
Say you have 10 sMerit and reward 10 Merit to someone who previously had none (thus spend all yours), then that person gets 5 sMerit, which also is their total.
Now they go and reward those 5 to someone else (taking their sMerit to 0 too).
Now you want to reverse your merit rating, would this give you your initial 10 sMerit back? Would this also mean the 5 sMerit spent on another person get reversed as their initiator was reversed?
It could get very complicated very quickly with something like that.


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Jeremycoin
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January 27, 2018, 11:53:22 AM
 #1507

I mean, if I give you a merit point and tomorrow I want to remove it (for a certain reason) I can't do it because the actual system doesn't allow you.





Well, I don't know. Wouldn't that be a bit complicated? What if I have spent the sMerit right before you tried to remove that Merit that you've just given to me? Would the Merit that I've spent also get revoked by the system?

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CryptoChanel
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January 27, 2018, 11:57:32 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (2), vapourminer (1)
 #1508

Merit is a new system where older users can withhold merit from younger users so they can't rank up and earn all the bounties!

I don't think so, just look at this thread, a lot of higher rank members are already giving merits to lower rank members. This new method is not about hoarding bounties, this is about preserving the quality of the forum. There are a lot of forums in the internet that are already using the merit system in terms of likes and upvotes and so far it's been helping improve the quality of their forums.

Not sure you can say that at this stage though.. just because a trickle of new users in this thread (maybe 10% or so) are getting merit doesn't mean it's working. A lot are getting merit just because they are complaining that they don't have any merit and that it's unfair lol.

Out there in the wild: it may turn out that new users seldom get any merit at all.

Check this young account out..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828014.0

right attitude, quality post.. lots of merit from lots of people.. it is working fella



Again, that is just one sample, one data point. It could even just be an anomaly.

For every one user that makes a hot post/thread and gets tons of merit. You could have 99 users who get next to nothing or anything substantial.

Well, I am not sure that this is a very appropriate case study. Or are you willing to tell me that the only way to get merits is to make threads and posts where you unconditionally praise the new rules with a deferential attitude? BTW, I happen to agree with every line written in that OP as I have also stated in one post of mine in that same thread. But in that same post I've also outlined what in my opinion will not work with this new system.


I have a personality and a way of writing that does not appeal to very many people; however, if I had a lower rank or I was just coming to the forum, I may consider either modifying my way of posting to rank up or just keeping with my regular style and to find out whether I receive very many merits. 

Even if you do not rank up, you are not really hurt either way in terms of being able to communicate ideas and to brainstorm ideas, and no one is stopping you from posting your ideas.  I have found that my style and my ideas resonate with some folks (that seems to be a kind of minority), and they do not resonate with others, yet over the years, I have pretty much stuck to my guns, and it seems to work out o.k. with me in terms of various forums and also in terms of my real world interactions.   

I have marked bold the crucial part of your post. That's actually the problem. To rank up (right or wrong most people want to rank up, be it because they want to run signature campaigns, be it for simple reasons of prestige) people WILL change the way they are posting, but the move may not be in the desired direction. I will make an example to make this case clear.
I don't know if you are familiar with the DeepOnion project and how it unfolded. As soon as their "airdrop" (in fact a signature campaign) had become economically valuable, many people wanted to join it. But in the community there were also a lot of critical voices, who were raising doubts and critics. They all got banned from the airdrop and their critical posts were deleted from the thread. Which has been the consequence? The consequence has been that this "system of reward and punishment" has selected a community made only by people fanatically in favor of the status quo. I am not judging the quality of that project here, I'm just exposing a pattern of human behavior.
Of course you cannot compare the new rules of BCT with that totalitarian management of DeepOnion's thread, but both has something in common: they end up rewarding those who praise the system and the status quo and punish those who raise a critical voice.
And you can already see the first signs of such a tendence here in these threads about the new merit system. Juniors who are posting here to praise the system get plenty of merits, critical voices don't.
Which do you think will be the consequences long term?
DeepOnion's thread has rapidly become unreadable, consisting in a mere chorus of enthusiastic hyping statements.
What will happen to Bitcointalk?
Shitposting will be reduced - and this is GOOD. But variety of opinions will as well shrink, because of natural selection. You'll have less shitposting but much more buttlickingposting. And worse of all, more and more a single line of thought.

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Lutpin
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January 27, 2018, 12:12:11 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1)
 #1509

Of course you cannot compare the new rules of BCT with that totalitarian management of DeepOnion's thread, but both has something in common: they end up rewarding those who praise the system and the status quo and punish those who raise a critical voice.
And you can already see the first signs of such a tendence here in these threads about the new merit system. Juniors who are posting here to praise the system get plenty of merits, critical voices don't.
That is not entirely true, TMAN for example has given a lot of merit to users who openly disagreed with the change or criticized certain aspects. Others have been doing similar things, some more, some less.
I also have given a few merits to people being sceptic, as long as they had a well explained position or provided some alternative they believe to be more suited.
It's not about opinion not about agreeing with someone or disagreeing with them, it's about how you voice that opinion.
People who outright cry and shout "No, no, no" without giving reasons or alternatives don't get merit. Posts like that are neither constructive, nor "high quality".
If you make a well written post, explaining your position and opinion, bring something to the conversation, or just sum everything up really well, you will get merit, regardless of your opinion and stance.


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bitmet
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January 27, 2018, 12:13:05 PM
 #1510

Merit is a new system where older users can withhold merit from younger users so they can't rank up and earn all the bounties!

I don't think so, just look at this thread, a lot of higher rank members are already giving merits to lower rank members. This new method is not about hoarding bounties, this is about preserving the quality of the forum. There are a lot of forums in the internet that are already using the merit system in terms of likes and upvotes and so far it's been helping improve the quality of their forums.

Not sure you can say that at this stage though.. just because a trickle of new users in this thread (maybe 10% or so) are getting merit doesn't mean it's working. A lot are getting merit just because they are complaining that they don't have any merit and that it's unfair lol.

Out there in the wild: it may turn out that new users seldom get any merit at all.

Check this young account out..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2828014.0

right attitude, quality post.. lots of merit from lots of people.. it is working fella



Again, that is just one sample, one data point. It could even just be an anomaly.

For every one user that makes a hot post/thread and gets tons of merit. You could have 99 users who get next to nothing or anything substantial.

Well, I am not sure that this is a very appropriate case study. Or are you willing to tell me that the only way to get merits is to make threads and posts where you unconditionally praise the new rules with a deferential attitude? BTW, I happen to agree with every line written in that OP as I have also stated in one post of mine in that same thread. But in that same post I've also outlined what in my opinion will not work with this new system.


I have a personality and a way of writing that does not appeal to very many people; however, if I had a lower rank or I was just coming to the forum, I may consider either modifying my way of posting to rank up or just keeping with my regular style and to find out whether I receive very many merits. 

Even if you do not rank up, you are not really hurt either way in terms of being able to communicate ideas and to brainstorm ideas, and no one is stopping you from posting your ideas.  I have found that my style and my ideas resonate with some folks (that seems to be a kind of minority), and they do not resonate with others, yet over the years, I have pretty much stuck to my guns, and it seems to work out o.k. with me in terms of various forums and also in terms of my real world interactions.   

I have marked bold the crucial part of your post. That's actually the problem. To rank up (right or wrong most people want to rank up, be it because they want to run signature campaigns, be it for simple reasons of prestige) people WILL change the way they are posting, but the move may not be in the desired direction. I will make an example to make this case clear.
I don't know if you are familiar with the DeepOnion project and how it unfolded. As soon as their "airdrop" (in fact a signature campaign) had become economically valuable, many people wanted to join it. But in the community there were also a lot of critical voices, who were raising doubts and critics. They all got banned from the airdrop and their critical posts were deleted from the thread. Which has been the consequence? The consequence has been that this "system of reward and punishment" has selected a community made only by people fanatically in favor of the status quo. I am not judging the quality of that project here, I'm just exposing a pattern of human behavior.
Of course you cannot compare the new rules of BCT with that totalitarian management of DeepOnion's thread, but both has something in common: they end up rewarding those who praise the system and the status quo and punish those who raise a critical voice.
And you can already see the first signs of such a tendence here in these threads about the new merit system. Juniors who are posting here to praise the system get plenty of merits, critical voices don't.
Which do you think will be the consequences long term?
DeepOnion's thread has rapidly become unreadable, consisting in a mere chorus of enthusiastic hyping statements.
What will happen to Bitcointalk?
Shitposting will be reduced - and this is GOOD. But variety of opinions will as well shrink, because of natural selection. You'll have less shitposting but much more buttlickingposting. And worse of all, more and more a single line of thought.
I think so too. this is a forum, and it should have many opinions, and for this many new people and an incentive for development on the forum. MERIT is a good idea, but this idea needs to be further improved.

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January 27, 2018, 12:24:17 PM
 #1511

Merit is a big slap in the face for account farmers. I can imagine how disapointed are they now, imo that's the only reason why it's been implemented.

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January 27, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
 #1512

So....I was ready to move up to member on Tuesday, now due to this i have to wait until i receive merit points..Garsh

Same here man. I feel stagnated already as I'll have to wait to receive merit points  Cry

Gave ya a little help there bud, hope you get there soon.

+1

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January 27, 2018, 12:50:22 PM
 #1513

Only with quality post I can earn merit? Good

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mithrim
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January 27, 2018, 12:51:34 PM
 #1514

Merit is a big slap in the face for account farmers. I can imagine how disapointed are they now, imo that's the only reason why it's been implemented.

Well, I'm no farmer but my face is still stinging and if I look closely enough, I see the traces of the hand as a slightly reddish tint on my cheek, Sr. Member was almost in reach  Wink

And I highly doubt that this was the sole purpose. But I'm also a realist, moping about things you can't change is pointless, so I adapt.


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freedoge.co
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January 27, 2018, 01:01:38 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), TMAN (1)
 #1515

Merit is a big slap in the face for account farmers. I can imagine how disapointed are they now, imo that's the only reason why it's been implemented.

Well, I'm no farmer but my face is still stinging and if I look closely enough, I see the traces of the hand as a slightly reddish tint on my cheek, Sr. Member was almost in reach  Wink

And I highly doubt that this was the sole purpose. But I'm also a realist, moping about things you can't change is pointless, so I adapt.
Yes I got slap too as I could have 1000 merits but yeah it is as it is.

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January 27, 2018, 01:02:55 PM
 #1516

Merit is a big slap in the face for account farmers. I can imagine how disapointed are they now, imo that's the only reason why it's been implemented.

Well, I'm no farmer but my face is still stinging and if I look closely enough, I see the traces of the hand as a slightly reddish tint on my cheek, Sr. Member was almost in reach  Wink

And I highly doubt that this was the sole purpose. But I'm also a realist, moping about things you can't change is pointless, so I adapt.
Yes I got slap too as I could have 1000 merits but yeah it is as it is.

Ouch... the newbies don't see higher ranking member missing out like this as an issue

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January 27, 2018, 01:26:42 PM
Merited by funsponge (1), Sowik (1), Godwans (1)
 #1517

There is a big chance that even if you post only quality content you will be left with no merits at all.

First, people don't know what that is and how to use it. Second, nobody likes to give merits because it fills like you are losing them.

There will be a lot of abuse for sure. We will see merits sent to low-quality friends post and accounts providing upvotes for money or in exchange.

I see there is a discussion to add bad merits to downvote spam. I am afraid that people will use it as a weapon to downvote posts they do not agree with or just because they don't like the author.

 
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January 27, 2018, 01:30:14 PM
 #1518

Second, nobody likes to give merits because it fills like you are losing them.
This thread has been posted not even 3 days ago.
In these 3 days, "22,265 merit has been sent in total."
I would say that refutes your point, wouldnt you agree?


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vapourminer
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what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?


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January 27, 2018, 01:31:05 PM
Merited by suchmoon (1), Lutpin (1), funsponge (1)
 #1519

And you can already see the first signs of such a tendence here in these threads about the new merit system. Juniors who are posting here to praise the system get plenty of merits, critical voices don't.
That is not entirely true, TMAN for example has given a lot of merit to users who openly disagreed with the change or criticized certain aspects. Others have been doing similar things, some more, some less.
I also have given a few merits to people being sceptic, as long as they had a well explained position or provided some alternative they believe to be more suited.
It's not about opinion not about agreeing with someone or disagreeing with them, it's about how you voice that opinion.
People who outright cry and shout "No, no, no" without giving reasons or alternatives don't get merit. Posts like that are neither constructive, nor "high quality".
If you make a well written post, explaining your position and opinion, bring something to the conversation, or just sum everything up really well, you will get merit, regardless of your opinion and stance.

this is my take as well. merits should be awarded for posts with accurate, helpful information or clarifying a point of view in a concise way, not for some "old boys club" or "you merited me, so +merit for you" thing. whether or not you agree with that position. i have no problem with meriting a post i dont agree with as long as that post contributes to the thread in a meaningful way.

this whole obsessiveness about rank seems blown out of proportion anyway. are there THAT many people in sig campaigns where rank makes a difference? i mean the only advantage to rank is sig campaigns anyway (aside from the recent "serious discussions" and "ivory tower" forums which are a welcome addition btw). i honestly dont know how many folks have sigs as i have sigs turned off so i never see them. the only sig ive ever had was a plug for cgminer back when btc was mined on gpus.

personally ive never paid attention to forum ranks. now am i proud of my legendary status? sure, ive been here since 2011 and ive tried to help whenever i can. but i post when i feel like it and what i feel like. its not for post count or to level up.
Godwans
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January 27, 2018, 01:33:50 PM
 #1520

There is a big chance that even if you post only quality content you will be left with no merits at all.

First, people don't know what that is and how to use it. Second, nobody likes to give merits because it fills like you are losing them.

There will be a lot of abuse for sure. We will see merits sent to low-quality friends post and accounts providing upvotes for money or in exchange.

I see there is a discussion to add bad merits to downvote spam. I am afraid that people will use it as a weapon to downvote posts they do not agree with or just because they don't like the author.


You see, this right here is why we need a 'Like' button..
Folks like me, with limited sMerits will be less likely to give them to someone of higher rank, even for a quality post.

(gave you my last)

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