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Author Topic: Armory - Discussion Thread  (Read 489703 times)
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September 20, 2013, 02:51:48 PM
 #2641

Andy (currently my first and only team member) is helping setup a new Windows installer (using NSIS) that will Do The Right Thing when it installs Armory -- no more mysterious errors that require uninstalling and reinstalling Armory.   It will also have more installation options.  And it will look slick Smiley

Like an MSI package for silent installation? That sounds great!

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September 20, 2013, 03:51:05 PM
 #2642

At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.
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September 20, 2013, 03:56:56 PM
 #2643

At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

Yes, while doubling RAM isn't so simple due to limited RAM slots on most personal computers, meaning you have to usually throw some sticks out to add more.  Most personal computers though have room to add an extra HDD.  And I don't think RAM prices scale linearly like HDD storage.

Guide to armory offline install on USB key:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=241730.0
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September 20, 2013, 09:54:26 PM
 #2644

At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

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September 20, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
 #2645

At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

roy

The point is that increasing disk space on an arbitrary system is usually much easier then increasing RAM.  Most consumer motherboards currently max out at 32 GB, and the blockchain might be that big 12 months from now.  You can get yourself a crazy $10,000 server that is expandable up to 192 GB of RAM... but even many older consumer PCs now can hook up a HDD through (e)SATA and get 2 TB for less than $100.


Founder and CEO of Armory Technologies, Inc.
Armory Bitcoin Wallet: Bringing cold storage to the average user!
Only use Armory software signed by the Armory Offline Signing Key (0x98832223)

Please donate to the Armory project by clicking here!    (or donate directly via 1QBDLYTDFHHZAABYSKGKPWKLSXZWCCJQBX -- yes, it's a real address!)
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September 20, 2013, 10:04:10 PM
 #2646

At the rate the bitcoin blockchain grows in size, 2.2x the growth worries me a lot more than 1x growth.

It really shouldn't. Doubling the storage requirements is mathematically very little. If you can afford to store 10 GB, you can almost assuredly afford to store 20 GB. If you can afford to store 1 TB you can almost assuredly afford to store 2 TB.

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

roy

The point is that increasing disk space on an arbitrary system is usually much easier then increasing RAM.  Most consumer motherboards currently max out at 32 GB, and the blockchain might be that big 12 months from now.  You can get yourself a crazy $10,000 server that is expandable up to 192 GB of RAM... but even many older consumer PCs now can hook up a HDD through (e)SATA and get 2 TB for less than $100.



Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy
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September 20, 2013, 10:10:08 PM
 #2647

I'd also point out that Armory 0.87 still seems to work on my little old Macbook Air (OS X 10.6; 4GB RAM; 128B SSD).  Not sure it will much longer, and tbh I'm surprised it does now.  Kinda cool that it does though

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September 20, 2013, 10:12:40 PM
 #2648

I'd also point out that Armory 0.87 still seems to work on my little old Macbook Air (OS X 10.6; 4GB RAM; 128B SSD).  Not sure it will much longer, and tbh I'm surprised it does now.  Kinda cool that it does though

I believe it still works on Linux and OSX systems with 4GB if you are running nothing else.  Windows has significantly higher resource usage for some reason.  It's most likely that Armory uses the same amount of RAM, but Windows likes to eat up 1 GB of RAM just to use the OS, whereas Linux uses like 100-300 MB. 

Meh, it won't matter shortly Smiley

Founder and CEO of Armory Technologies, Inc.
Armory Bitcoin Wallet: Bringing cold storage to the average user!
Only use Armory software signed by the Armory Offline Signing Key (0x98832223)

Please donate to the Armory project by clicking here!    (or donate directly via 1QBDLYTDFHHZAABYSKGKPWKLSXZWCCJQBX -- yes, it's a real address!)
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September 20, 2013, 10:23:16 PM
 #2649

Is that true?  Pretty sure it used to be the case that Gnome was way more of a resource hog than Windows.

Maybe Linux desktops have got better (and Windows worse) in this respect...
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September 20, 2013, 10:27:29 PM
 #2650


Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy

When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all. 

Fortunately, I think that date is long enough into the future that Alan and co. should have this "lite mode" working well by then.
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September 21, 2013, 12:27:54 AM
 #2651

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

Sure that's enough for now.... but what's this 2TB you're going to plug in to your laptop and how is it going to work?

You can't really compare the size of the blockchain in many years to hard drive sizes today...

Anyway, with Armory storing its data on disk, you can run Bitcoin on another computer, so you're back to just 1x block data on your laptop.
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September 21, 2013, 02:56:48 AM
 #2652

I've just successfully compiled my own take at LevelDB on MSVC. I need to bench it, test the x64 build and write a guide so that you can upgrade the project with newer versions as they come.

It's late now and I won't be around on Saturday nor for the best part of Sunday. Expect delivery at best on Sunday night.

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September 21, 2013, 07:32:15 AM
 #2653

Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy
I don't think that argument holds up with modern laptops. Most of them have "hotswap" ports, where you just slide a HDD in. You can alternately simply connect an external HDD either via USB, or maybe even wirelessly via BT (not sure if those exist, yet).

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September 21, 2013, 08:14:23 AM
 #2654

Right, but on a laptop increasing either is often hard.

Sure, the RAM reduce work you're doing is appreciated - of course I'd rather have the blockchain on disk than in RAM.  But not everyone has 1TB of anything.  Fortunately 128GB will, I hope, be enough in the short term.

roy
I don't think that argument holds up with modern laptops. Most of them have "hotswap" ports, where you just slide a HDD in. You can alternately simply connect an external HDD either via USB, or maybe even wirelessly via BT (not sure if those exist, yet).

Oh, sure I can use an external drive.... but having to lug one around seriously impacts the portability of my computer.  Anyway, none of this is intended to be a criticism of Armory - I'm very appreciative of the work that etotheipi has done and continues to do.  I'm just pushing back against this idea that resources are somehow infinite because you can always upgrade your machine.  That's clearly not true (and if it were there'd be no need for the ram reduction etotheipi is working on).

roy

EDIT: Fortunately I don't think anyone is seriously saying the cost of reducing the RAM usage below 4GB will be to increase the disk usage above 1TB - so this discussion is somewhat academic Smiley
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September 21, 2013, 10:10:33 AM
 #2655

When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all.

I just bought a 1 Tb disk for 0.5 btc. When the blockchain gets into the hundreds of Gb, we'll be able to buy 1 Pb disks for the same amount of money and I will happily get a disk to store the blockchain and support the network with a full node.

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September 21, 2013, 10:21:15 AM
 #2656

Anything new on the message-signing front? Is it still un-encrypt/encrypt again? I thought jackjack was working on sth but couldn't find an update (or missed it).

@Alan: Congrats! Now that you're incorporated and funded, I can't wait for the LTC version of Armory! Grin

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September 21, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
 #2657

When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all.

I just bought a 1 Tb disk for 0.5 btc. When the blockchain gets into the hundreds of Gb, we'll be able to buy 1 Pb disks for the same amount of money and I will happily get a disk to store the blockchain and support the network with a full node.

I see what you did here! :-)

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September 21, 2013, 05:42:58 PM
 #2658

When the blockchain starts getting into the hundreds of GBs, I suspect that most normal bitcoin users will be using Armory in "lite mode" that doesn't require the blockchain locally at all.

I just bought a 1 Tb disk for 0.5 btc. When the blockchain gets into the hundreds of Gb, we'll be able to buy 1 Pb disks for the same amount of money and I will happily get a disk to store the blockchain and support the network with a full node.
I'm to cheap to buy a 1TB disk, I just used 3 500Gb disks and RAIDed them together to get a 1TB RAID 5 disk. Wink

P.S. Great work etotheipi!  I can't wait for the updates your working on. Grin

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September 21, 2013, 06:44:14 PM
 #2659

It really isn't about what you can afford, it's about what you can do.  If you're on a laptop with an SSD, you have 128GTB, maybe 256GB if it's a new one.

You can get 960 GB and 1 TB SSDs for 2.5", even for mSATA (480 GB, but you can place 2 of them)

Don't talk to me about price though, doubles the value of the laptop ;-)
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September 22, 2013, 06:52:47 PM
 #2660

Let's do this!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=299684.0

Please don't use it with large amounts of money yet.  It's probably still chock full of bugs, but I've done quite a bit of internal testing and feel pretty good about the major features.

Besides fixing the rescan-on-every-load issue, the feature set is frozen.  I'd like to fix what's in it, rather than add anything new.  A whole bunch of less-critical things (unicode fixes, message signing, tx size limits), will go into the next version (and that next version will not take 3 months to release Smiley).

Please discuss bugs & general observations in that other thread, to not clutter this one!

Founder and CEO of Armory Technologies, Inc.
Armory Bitcoin Wallet: Bringing cold storage to the average user!
Only use Armory software signed by the Armory Offline Signing Key (0x98832223)

Please donate to the Armory project by clicking here!    (or donate directly via 1QBDLYTDFHHZAABYSKGKPWKLSXZWCCJQBX -- yes, it's a real address!)
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