Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[mrhelpful]

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

[1714211806]

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[cypherdoc]

Sigh, what an idiot:

http://justsecurity.org/20304/transcript-nsa-director-mike-rogers-vs-yahoo-encryption-doors/

[cypherdoc]

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.

[molecular]

interesting take by Wences Cesares on Greek adoption of Bitcoin:

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/28/why-greece-should-not-switch-to-bitcoin/

I love this part:

Yanis Varoufakis, Greece’s new Finance Minister, agrees that because it is deflationary, bitcoin would be bad for Greece. But he goes on to say that bitcoin is a flawed currency because it is deflationary. This misses the point. Bitcoin is not a currency for a government; it is a global currency for the people.

It's spot on.

[molecular]

molecular, what is the source of randomness inside the Trezor?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2d36lb/is_the_trezor_seed_entropy_truly_and_provably/cjlmv90

reading those links and not fully understanding the code, those links don't answer my question.

is the hardware drawing from a entropy source, like static electricity?  or is it algorithmically generated?

I don't know.

I've been searching for info for the hardware RNG on the cortex m3 (used on trezor) but failed.

All I could find was this:

Random Number Generator (RNG) is supported by the AES API and passes the
following tests:
– diehard
– FIPS_140-1
– NIST

In general a "true hardware random number generator" indeed uses some sort of hardware entropy source.

I'd be quite interested in the specifics regarding trezor myself, so if anyone can find any info, I'd be thankful for a post.

[justusranvier]

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.

Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

[sidhujag]

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.

Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

Not unless the amount of purchasing power in bitcoin increases exponentially compared to the amount they invested.. They essentially offload their debt like how us does it with usd a la qe

[smooth]

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Tourism is an export product.

Probably countries like Greece that have nice islands, beaches, history, etc. would be better off focusing on having an efficient tourism industry than trying to do things that China does better.

[molecular]

molecular, what is the source of randomness inside the Trezor?

Done more digging and asked satoshilabs for hints.

Relevant info is on page 533 of http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/reference_manual/CD00225773.pdf

The RNG processor is a random number generator, based on a continuous analog noise, that provides a random 32-bit value to the host when read.

and more specifically:

The random number generator implements an analog circuit. This circuit generates seeds
that feed a linear feedback shift register (RNG_LFSR) in order to produce 32-bit random
numbers.

The analog circuit is made of several ring oscillators whose outputs are XORed to generate
the seeds.

I'm not a physicist or electronics guy, but I'm guessing those ring oscillators and their operational output are influenced my many factors, like impurities in the matierials on the die, variance in the amount of material and probably external factors like magnetic / electric fields, temperature, maybe even gravitational or more esoteric quantum effects?

If you look at the wikipedia article about ring osciallators, there's a section on jitter which attributes the variance in oscillation period to temperature only:

Jitter: Period of ring oscillator vibrates in a random manner T=T+T' where T' is a random value. In high-quality circuits, the range of T' is relatively small compared to T. This variation in oscillator period is called jitter.[3] Local temperature effects cause the period of a ring oscillator to wander above and below the long-term average period:[4] When the local silicon is cold, the propagation delay is slightly shorter, causing the ring oscillator to run at a slightly higher frequency, which eventually raises the local temperature. When the local silicon is hot, the propagation delay is slightly longer, causing the ring oscillator to run at a slightly lower frequency, which eventually lowers the local temperature.

caveat regarding above bolded sentence: often 'random' just means 'unknown to the observer' or 'unpredictable with available information', but that's leading up to a philosophical discussion.

EDIT: as a side-note: I quite trust the combination of the hw rng and the random source on my cpu to be sufficiently random and above all unkowable to anyone.

EDIT2: you can get entropy from your trezor using python-trezor:

Code:

localhost  (master) ~/bitcoin/python-trezor\> ./cmdtr.py get_entropy 32
b5ad64d05241aa1cbbb8d62cdd12542749dd008a23817b71e703d6f9b905665a

that way you can at least check it's not doing this:


(courtesy xkcd)

EDIT3: if you want your mind fucked, check On the security of oscillator-based random number generators

[Odalv]

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

[molecular]

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

that is all correct.

If you're paranoid, you can use dice to determine the seed and restore it to your trezor. Make sure you check for hidden cameras (don't forget laptops, smartphones, tablets, the fridge, microwave, toaster and smoke detectors) and pull down the shades ;-)

[cypherdoc]

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

that is all correct.

If you're paranoid, you can use dice to determine the seed and restore it to your trezor. Make sure you check for hidden cameras (don't forget laptops, smartphones, tables, the fridge, microwave, toaster and smoke detectors) and pull down the shades ;-)

Just use the Snowden Hood.

[brg444]

You might wanna check the logs at bitcoin-assets too. Searching for Trezor, RNG will provide you with relevant discussions.

TL;DR If you don't trust ARM HW RNG then use dice!

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

[cypherdoc]

Lol, Zhoutonged is making waves again. Ah, much memories, so wow:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49445.msg590955#msg590955

https://www.crunchbase.com/person/zhou-tong

[Odalv]

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

that is all correct.

If you're paranoid, you can use dice to determine the seed and restore it to your trezor. Make sure you check for hidden cameras (don't forget laptops, smartphones, tablets, the fridge, microwave, toaster and smoke detectors) and pull down the shades ;-)

This will not help. (satelites, hubble telescop, time travelers ... )  :-)

[cypherdoc]

I'm havinga  good laugh taking a walk down memory lan.  For those of you who hate on Bitcoin for volatility:

Bitcoin is so volatile I really don't see why people want to short it.  Today we saw the price go from $2.83 to $2.44 to $3 and back to $2.64 within 2 hours.  One super spike can wipe out most positions. 

Pick any moment in time and bitcoin could be worth 20% less or 20% more within minutes.  Impossible to predict.

[cypherdoc]

Ah, the days when we used to follow the "mtgox connected" :

mtgoxlives's connected = 918

somethings brewing...

Wonder what happened to all those colorful personalities I used to argue with so much?

[cypherdoc]

Where oh where did BitMagic go?:

i usually stay away from the Spec forum to avoid idiots like you but its kinda fun to mess up all the planned Bear raids.

Keep it coming, friend. You may yet reach Atlas status.

said like a true short seller.

Uh, I'm holding a long position. Don't you look like an idiot.

obviously, but 10:1 you're net short otherwise you  wouldn't be getting so angry at a Bull like me who keeps messing up your grand plans.

[cypherdoc]

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.

Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.

[brg444]

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.

Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.

 

Good one.

The "corrupt monetary policy" is what has afforded them the social welfare they're adamant on substaining. Bitcoin risks taking away all of these "entitlements" away.

Bitcoin will never be accepted with open arms by "the masses".