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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803516 times)
Torque
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February 27, 2015, 01:55:05 PM
 #21621

"finance is no longer an instrument for getting money into productive businesses, but for getting money out of them." [washpost]

What a stupid comment. The idea is that companies are supposed to suck up money like a black hole and never pay back to the shareholders blue collar employees that actually do all the fkn work, but don't own enough shares of the stock to either get rich or retire on it like the executives will?

FTFY
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February 27, 2015, 05:11:21 PM
 #21622

Found it on hacker news and I though it's worth sharing:

http://lightning.network/lightning-network.pdf

To make a long story short: another proposal to make bitcoin scale

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
hdbuck
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February 27, 2015, 05:16:02 PM
 #21623

Found it on hacker news and I though it's worth sharing:

http://lightning.network/lightning-network.pdf

To make a long story short: another proposal to make bitcoin scale


Quote
7 billion people making 20 blockchain
transactions per day
○ 240 GB blocks (~24,000 MB)
■ 7e9 * 20txs * 250Bytes / 144 block/day
○ ~500 Mbit/s best-case with IBLT @ 20tx/day/person

even ripple wouldnt dare to compete.. Roll Eyes
rocks
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February 27, 2015, 05:51:49 PM
 #21624

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Completely agree, this is why the invisible hand of the market always works infinitely better. The great depression, caused by the FED, was proof positive that they could not control or understand the system well enough.

However, they were able to mask their lack of control and understanding and maintain relative stability since then, by taking a continuously accommodation approach. This required continuous inflation and continuously increasing leverage in the banking sector, any 150 year chart of these shows this, we have had ~80 years of artificial stability at the price of steady inflation and credit expansion.

But, now that the economy's reached debt saturation, their ability to mask their lack of control and understanding is no longer working. The result of this is increased volatility with bigger swings up and down as their masking mechanisms lose effectiveness and the system spirals more and more out of control. That is what I was trying to say in the quote above, not that they ever were able to control the system, but that they did have some tools, tools that are no longer working...
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February 27, 2015, 06:02:27 PM
 #21625

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Completely agree, this is why the invisible hand of the market always works infinitely better. The great depression, caused by the FED, was proof positive that they could not control or understand the system well enough.

However, they were able to mask their lack of control and understanding and maintain relative stability since then, by taking a continuously accommodation approach. This required continuous inflation and continuously increasing leverage in the banking sector, any 150 year chart of these shows this, we have had ~80 years of artificial stability at the price of steady inflation and credit expansion.

But, now that the economy's reached debt saturation, their ability to mask their lack of control and understanding is no longer working. The result of this is increased volatility with bigger swings up and down as their masking mechanisms lose effectiveness and the system spirals more and more out of control. That is what I was trying to say in the quote above, not that they ever were able to control the system, but that they did have some tools, tools that are no longer working...

I see now what you meant.

I'm quite surprised at how long their tools actually have been working to the degree they have. I guess this will make their ultimate failure all the more spectacular. My btc, gold and popcorn are ready.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
NotLambchop
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February 27, 2015, 06:06:54 PM
 #21626

The universal success of centralization and nation-states speaks for itself, as does nonexistence of alternative.
Face it, if [insert libertardian/anarcap flavor here] worked better than centralization, it would have displaced centralisation.
Why is this still being discussed?
marcus_of_augustus
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February 27, 2015, 08:06:20 PM
 #21627

just fyi … sensing some truly breakthrough developments in the wind. On the order of sidechain significance.

The great unknown about BitCoin is it is just the beginning in the intellectual pursuit of programmable money. No one can predict where this will lead with any certainty at all. But you can almost be sure that with over 30,000 bright energetic minds now turned on to crypto concepts and programmable money there are going to be unpredictable upside developments.

… it may be that block chain TX are comparatively rare yet we still all use bitcoin.

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

Blockchain is a very fundamental concept, some would say simple, obvious in retrospect, yes, but so is the transistor.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2xdgrc/intel_staffing_up_bitcoinblockchain_effort

molecular
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February 27, 2015, 10:55:56 PM
 #21628

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

bitcoin - the transistor of money?

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
marcus_of_augustus
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February 27, 2015, 11:32:22 PM
 #21629

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

bitcoin - the transistor of money?


yup, attribution please, you heard it here first. Wink

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February 28, 2015, 12:34:05 AM
 #21630

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

bitcoin - the transistor of money?


yup, attribution please, you heard it here first. Wink

Hmm.  So what is the IC?  

yeah, the analogy falls apart quite quickly and all will as it has no direct precedence. Since block chain programming is more of an abstract concept, albeit with a very real working implementation, it is more like the first demonstration of an instruction set (actually who came up with the first concept of an instruction set?) … an instruction set architecture with execution on a massively distributed virtual machine (the bitcoin network) for programmable immutable objects of value.

Edit: In fact, a good analogy would be the ENIAC of money, world's first computer of money.

This is the realization that ethereum grasped when conceiving their copy, yet to be executed.

hope it isn't analogous to the first floating point operation,  - the flop of money?

Erdogan
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February 28, 2015, 02:20:55 AM
 #21631

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Indeed. Mises "calculation problem".

I think the delay between the onset of serious central planning meddling, and systemic collapse, is simply due to the sheer size of an economic system and the inertia which is latent. So Zimbabwe will collapse faster than Venezuela which collapses faster than Japan, assuming a similar progression of centralized control.


The main problem with information flows in centralized systems is a chronic lack of feedback. In human systems there is even incentive for the conscious distortion of information - you won't tell your boss any sort of information you think might get you fired. Thus even when decisions are made in good-will (which is often doubtful, seeing how corrupting an influence the power at the top of centralized systems is), they are based on wildly inaccurate information. Now armed with false assumptions the individual(s) in power make decisions, which would have unforeseen consequences even if they have had absolutely accurate information because the system they are operating on is so complex. It is like removing an appendix with a chainsaw - you can't possibly now in advance what else you'll mess up. The instrument (in our case the human mind) is just too crude for the level of complexity it is dealing with. This is nothing new, but it warrants restating.

To make matters worse, the unforeseen consequences can take a long time in showing up - years or even decades in the case of systems as complex as national economies - just like you said. These then get misinterpreted, too and a clusterfuck of gigantic proportions is usually the ongoing result from all of this. Centralization? Just say NO, kids.


And... the important interest rate, which is an input to demand for money, demand to consume, and demand for long term investment, and demand for short term investment, is distorted to a degree never before seen. Basically, the world economy is a ship with no rudder, only for this reason.
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February 28, 2015, 03:07:45 AM
 #21632

why would one want to hold onto Hryvnia?

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.nl/2015/02/panic-in-ukraine-over-food-empty-stores.html
AnalizeSituation
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February 28, 2015, 03:08:55 AM
 #21633

Yes lat days bitcoin price grow up i hope this be price how in 2013

1200$  Roll Eyes

Donations BTC: 13kYEbbwtf2g6GiWqvccgzXmkAY1aLNqLL
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February 28, 2015, 03:44:10 AM
 #21634


Daytraders maybe, because it rose from 33 to the dollar yesterday to 27 today.
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February 28, 2015, 11:22:36 AM
 #21635

The universal success of centralization and nation-states speaks for itself, as does nonexistence of alternative.
Face it, if [insert libertardian/anarcap flavor here] worked better than centralization, it would have displaced centralisation.
Why is this still being discussed?

The feudal lords vanished also at a certain point. No stopping this one.

Like this post? you can tip me (BTC) 1LGi2DMhectdFSkBid5srrnHk8WHgD3V1d or very WoW (Doge) D9p6FZQb1sKkq9hApy4tnjSduYfdnc74bb
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2015, 03:32:31 PM
 #21636

molecular, what is the source of randomness inside the Trezor?
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February 28, 2015, 04:51:26 PM
 #21637

molecular, what is the source of randomness inside the Trezor?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2d36lb/is_the_trezor_seed_entropy_truly_and_provably/cjlmv90
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February 28, 2015, 04:52:58 PM
 #21638

interesting take by Wences Cesares on Greek adoption of Bitcoin:

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/28/why-greece-should-not-switch-to-bitcoin/
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February 28, 2015, 04:56:14 PM
 #21639


reading those links and not fully understanding the code, those links don't answer my question.

is the hardware drawing from a entropy source, like static electricity?  or is it algorithmically generated?
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Bitcoin: The honey badger of currencies


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February 28, 2015, 05:07:11 PM
 #21640

interesting take by Wences Cesares on Greek adoption of Bitcoin:

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/28/why-greece-should-not-switch-to-bitcoin/

Wences is a smart guy. This is basically clickbait for the schadenfreude crowd. Then they read it and it makes them think about what money is and what bitcoin's role is.

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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