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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1981936 times)
justusranvier
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February 28, 2015, 09:05:45 PM
 #21621

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.
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sidhujag
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February 28, 2015, 09:38:57 PM
 #21622

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.
Not unless the amount of purchasing power in bitcoin increases exponentially compared to the amount they invested.. They essentially offload their debt like how us does it with usd a la qe

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
smooth
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February 28, 2015, 09:42:55 PM
 #21623

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Tourism is an export product.

Probably countries like Greece that have nice islands, beaches, history, etc. would be better off focusing on having an efficient tourism industry than trying to do things that China does better.
molecular
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February 28, 2015, 09:49:15 PM
 #21624

molecular, what is the source of randomness inside the Trezor?

Done more digging and asked satoshilabs for hints.

Relevant info is on page 533 of http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/reference_manual/CD00225773.pdf

Quote
The RNG processor is a random number generator, based on a continuous analog noise, that provides a random 32-bit value to the host when read.

and more specifically:

Quote
The random number generator implements an analog circuit. This circuit generates seeds
that feed a linear feedback shift register (RNG_LFSR) in order to produce 32-bit random
numbers.

The analog circuit is made of several ring oscillators whose outputs are XORed to generate
the seeds.

I'm not a physicist or electronics guy, but I'm guessing those ring oscillators and their operational output are influenced my many factors, like impurities in the matierials on the die, variance in the amount of material and probably external factors like magnetic / electric fields, temperature, maybe even gravitational or more esoteric quantum effects?

If you look at the wikipedia article about ring osciallators, there's a section on jitter which attributes the variance in oscillation period to temperature only:

Jitter: Period of ring oscillator vibrates in a random manner T=T+T' where T' is a random value. In high-quality circuits, the range of T' is relatively small compared to T. This variation in oscillator period is called jitter.[3] Local temperature effects cause the period of a ring oscillator to wander above and below the long-term average period:[4] When the local silicon is cold, the propagation delay is slightly shorter, causing the ring oscillator to run at a slightly higher frequency, which eventually raises the local temperature. When the local silicon is hot, the propagation delay is slightly longer, causing the ring oscillator to run at a slightly lower frequency, which eventually lowers the local temperature.

caveat regarding above bolded sentence: often 'random' just means 'unknown to the observer' or 'unpredictable with available information', but that's leading up to a philosophical discussion.

EDIT: as a side-note: I quite trust the combination of the hw rng and the random source on my cpu to be sufficiently random and above all unkowable to anyone.

EDIT2: you can get entropy from your trezor using python-trezor:

Code:
localhost  (master) ~/bitcoin/python-trezor\> ./cmdtr.py get_entropy 32
b5ad64d05241aa1cbbb8d62cdd12542749dd008a23817b71e703d6f9b905665a

that way you can at least check it's not doing this:


(courtesy xkcd)

EDIT3: if you want your mind fucked, check On the security of oscillator-based random number generators

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
Odalv
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February 28, 2015, 10:13:36 PM
 #21625

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.
molecular
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February 28, 2015, 10:33:05 PM
 #21626

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

that is all correct.

If you're paranoid, you can use dice to determine the seed and restore it to your trezor. Make sure you check for hidden cameras (don't forget laptops, smartphones, tablets, the fridge, microwave, toaster and smoke detectors) and pull down the shades ;-)

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2015, 10:38:02 PM
 #21627

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

that is all correct.

If you're paranoid, you can use dice to determine the seed and restore it to your trezor. Make sure you check for hidden cameras (don't forget laptops, smartphones, tables, the fridge, microwave, toaster and smoke detectors) and pull down the shades ;-)

Just use the Snowden Hood.
brg444
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February 28, 2015, 10:43:24 PM
 #21628

You might wanna check the logs at bitcoin-assets too. Searching for Trezor, RNG will provide you with relevant discussions.

TL;DR If you don't trust ARM HW RNG then use dice!

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2015, 11:10:41 PM
 #21629

Lol, Zhoutonged is making waves again. Ah, much memories, so wow:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49445.msg590955#msg590955

https://www.crunchbase.com/person/zhou-tong
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February 28, 2015, 11:19:53 PM
 #21630

a) I think that the only random event is creating "master seed".
b) Then there is not more random events and everything is deterministic. (or can be done using SHA-256)

=> I hope (I do not use it) you can import any "master seed" into trezor.

that is all correct.

If you're paranoid, you can use dice to determine the seed and restore it to your trezor. Make sure you check for hidden cameras (don't forget laptops, smartphones, tablets, the fridge, microwave, toaster and smoke detectors) and pull down the shades ;-)

This will not help. (satelites, hubble telescop, time travelers ... )  :-)
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2015, 11:19:54 PM
 #21631

I'm havinga  good laugh taking a walk down memory lan.  For those of you who hate on Bitcoin for volatility:

Bitcoin is so volatile I really don't see why people want to short it.  Today we saw the price go from $2.83 to $2.44 to $3 and back to $2.64 within 2 hours.  One super spike can wipe out most positions. 

Pick any moment in time and bitcoin could be worth 20% less or 20% more within minutes.  Impossible to predict.
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February 28, 2015, 11:26:01 PM
 #21632

Ah, the days when we used to follow the "mtgox connected" :

mtgoxlives's connected = 918

somethings brewing...

Wonder what happened to all those colorful personalities I used to argue with so much?
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2015, 11:31:40 PM
 #21633

Where oh where did BitMagic go?:

i usually stay away from the Spec forum to avoid idiots like you but its kinda fun to mess up all the planned Bear raids.

Keep it coming, friend. You may yet reach Atlas status.

said like a true short seller.

Uh, I'm holding a long position. Don't you look like an idiot.

obviously, but 10:1 you're net short otherwise you  wouldn't be getting so angry at a Bull like me who keeps messing up your grand plans.
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March 01, 2015, 12:13:42 AM
 #21634

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.
brg444
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March 01, 2015, 12:33:28 AM
 #21635

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.

 Cheesy

Good one.

The "corrupt monetary policy" is what has afforded them the social welfare they're adamant on substaining. Bitcoin risks taking away all of these "entitlements" away.

Bitcoin will never be accepted with open arms by "the masses".

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
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March 01, 2015, 01:29:47 AM
 #21636

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.
Individuals will prosper, but countries will not.

It's not possible for a nation-state to survive in the presence of honest money.
cypherdoc
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March 01, 2015, 01:42:02 AM
 #21637

i'll be darn:

"In a free society, we don't require people to organize their lives in a way that makes life easier for law enforcement"

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-man-who-crafted-the-patriot-act-now-supports-your-right-to-encrypt-data
sidhujag
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March 01, 2015, 02:01:05 AM
 #21638

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.

 Cheesy

Good one.

The "corrupt monetary policy" is what has afforded them the social welfare they're adamant on substaining. Bitcoin risks taking away all of these "entitlements" away.

Bitcoin will never be accepted with open arms by "the masses".
Btc is meant to be ideal money.. Thats geared towards mass acceptance regardless of govt

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
brg444
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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March 01, 2015, 03:00:28 AM
 #21639

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.

 Cheesy

Good one.

The "corrupt monetary policy" is what has afforded them the social welfare they're adamant on substaining. Bitcoin risks taking away all of these "entitlements" away.

Bitcoin will never be accepted with open arms by "the masses".
Btc is meant to be ideal money.. Thats geared towards mass acceptance regardless of govt

I think you drank too much of the trainscarwreck kool aid.

It will not be accepted by the masses, the ones who profit from current welfare state and status quo, it will be forced upon them.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
sidhujag
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March 01, 2015, 06:17:53 AM
 #21640

A problem greece cant fix it based on production.

They have no export/import things from their own country. Meanwhile china, we all love almost everything we have here in the U.S is "Made in China" so it creates millionaires for them.

Greece is nothing but a tourist attraction, unless they understand their own mechanics to the problem.

Well, if they don't export anything, then Bitcoin theoretically would be precisely the type of currency the Greek people should want to adopt. It goes up in value over the long run as well their purchasing power. Just sit back and consume.
Bitcoin still doesn't save them.

They could buy up the bitcoins with whatever euros they have on hand, but then they'll still need to spend their bitcoins.

If they are trying to spend more than they earn - no matter what currency is involved - eventually they'll run out of money.

I think you're missing the bigger picture.

The first country that introduces an honest currency should prosper. People who may have never found it worthwhile to work or strive in the past will for the first time have an incentive to participate in a real economy not distorted by corrupt monetary policy.

 Cheesy

Good one.

The "corrupt monetary policy" is what has afforded them the social welfare they're adamant on substaining. Bitcoin risks taking away all of these "entitlements" away.

Bitcoin will never be accepted with open arms by "the masses".
Btc is meant to be ideal money.. Thats geared towards mass acceptance regardless of govt

I think you drank too much of the trainscarwreck kool aid.

It will not be accepted by the masses, the ones who profit from current welfare state and status quo, it will be forced upon them.
Status quo will stop working when people have an option that ideal money provides.. In any market good money drives out bad.. Its just a matter of timing.. Thats mathematics

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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