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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022038 times)
sidhujag
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February 27, 2015, 03:23:44 AM
 #21581

John Nash (arguable the father of Bitcoin) says that USD and EUR were the two ideal money candidates right now because of the inflation targeting mechanism but that instead of inflation targeting a CPI measurement should be the basis of money supply shifts, for one it is claimed to be not hackable (true?) and secondly easy to determine and predict in the macro economic sense. However I don't think that the indicators are what they say they are like inflation indicators and GDP numbers being fudged so to can these other ones... a number is needed which truly is based on consensus and that may be the cost of mining, and economic indications based on how cheap/expensive relative to a basket of things would be a good stable indicator and provide bitcoin as the perfect candidate for an ideal currency. (thinking out loud from reading ideal money paper a few days ago)...

Thus the USD (and other's) money supply would expand contract based on this number derived from consensus... you wouldn't have to shock the system by putting into place a whole new currency (another doctrine that Nash alluded that was a big hurdle to overcome when managing change), and bitcoin would be used as the backbone. Over time, since USD would be based on a consensus measurement of the bitcoin network in effect it will become bitcoin, as will other fiat currencies... fiat will slowly become a worthless token and we can ease the change while still allowing for real growth (no shock). That is, purchasing power will be shifted in a thoughtful way.

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cypherdoc
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February 27, 2015, 03:49:18 AM
 #21582

nice ramp
smooth
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February 27, 2015, 04:03:14 AM
 #21583

"finance is no longer an instrument for getting money into productive businesses, but for getting money out of them." [washpost]

What a stupid comment. The idea is that companies are supposed to suck up money like a black hole and never pay back to the shareholders?

cypherdoc
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February 27, 2015, 05:31:16 AM
 #21584

this is gonna be really interesting esp given tonites Bitcoin breakout:

sidhujag
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February 27, 2015, 06:26:31 AM
 #21585

this is gonna be really interesting esp given tonites Bitcoin breakout:


Prob test 8400 before going back up

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
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For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
ErisDiscordia
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February 27, 2015, 06:47:11 AM
 #21586

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
cypherdoc
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February 27, 2015, 08:33:54 AM
 #21587

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying about where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)
solex
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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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February 27, 2015, 09:53:12 AM
 #21588

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Indeed. Mises "calculation problem".

I think the delay between the onset of serious central planning meddling, and systemic collapse, is simply due to the sheer size of an economic system and the inertia which is latent. So Zimbabwe will collapse faster than Venezuela which collapses faster than Japan, assuming a similar progression of centralized control.

tabnloz
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February 27, 2015, 10:16:10 AM
 #21589

"finance is no longer an instrument for getting money into productive businesses, but for getting money out of them." [washpost]

What a stupid comment. The idea is that companies are supposed to suck up money like a black hole and never pay back to the shareholders?



Yes, in isolation.

And I take your point, but in context, the article is trying to highlight that companies are taking advantage of cheap credit to fund share buy backs (and raise share price) ahead of re-investing in company.
cypherdoc
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February 27, 2015, 12:32:27 PM
 #21590

Next ramp on deck
ErisDiscordia
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Imposition of ORder = Escalation of Chaos


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February 27, 2015, 01:27:39 PM
 #21591

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Indeed. Mises "calculation problem".

I think the delay between the onset of serious central planning meddling, and systemic collapse, is simply due to the sheer size of an economic system and the inertia which is latent. So Zimbabwe will collapse faster than Venezuela which collapses faster than Japan, assuming a similar progression of centralized control.


The main problem with information flows in centralized systems is a chronic lack of feedback. In human systems there is even incentive for the conscious distortion of information - you won't tell your boss any sort of information you think might get you fired. Thus even when decisions are made in good-will (which is often doubtful, seeing how corrupting an influence the power at the top of centralized systems is), they are based on wildly inaccurate information. Now armed with false assumptions the individual(s) in power make decisions, which would have unforeseen consequences even if they have had absolutely accurate information because the system they are operating on is so complex. It is like removing an appendix with a chainsaw - you can't possibly now in advance what else you'll mess up. The instrument (in our case the human mind) is just too crude for the level of complexity it is dealing with. This is nothing new, but it warrants restating.

To make matters worse, the unforeseen consequences can take a long time in showing up - years or even decades in the case of systems as complex as national economies - just like you said. These then get misinterpreted, too and a clusterfuck of gigantic proportions is usually the ongoing result from all of this. Centralization? Just say NO, kids.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
Torque
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February 27, 2015, 01:55:05 PM
 #21592

"finance is no longer an instrument for getting money into productive businesses, but for getting money out of them." [washpost]

What a stupid comment. The idea is that companies are supposed to suck up money like a black hole and never pay back to the shareholders blue collar employees that actually do all the fkn work, but don't own enough shares of the stock to either get rich or retire on it like the executives will?

FTFY
sickpig
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February 27, 2015, 05:11:21 PM
 #21593

Found it on hacker news and I though it's worth sharing:

http://lightning.network/lightning-network.pdf

To make a long story short: another proposal to make bitcoin scale

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
hdbuck
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February 27, 2015, 05:16:02 PM
 #21594

Found it on hacker news and I though it's worth sharing:

http://lightning.network/lightning-network.pdf

To make a long story short: another proposal to make bitcoin scale


Quote
7 billion people making 20 blockchain
transactions per day
○ 240 GB blocks (~24,000 MB)
■ 7e9 * 20txs * 250Bytes / 144 block/day
○ ~500 Mbit/s best-case with IBLT @ 20tx/day/person

even ripple wouldnt dare to compete.. Roll Eyes
rocks
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February 27, 2015, 05:51:49 PM
 #21595

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Completely agree, this is why the invisible hand of the market always works infinitely better. The great depression, caused by the FED, was proof positive that they could not control or understand the system well enough.

However, they were able to mask their lack of control and understanding and maintain relative stability since then, by taking a continuously accommodation approach. This required continuous inflation and continuously increasing leverage in the banking sector, any 150 year chart of these shows this, we have had ~80 years of artificial stability at the price of steady inflation and credit expansion.

But, now that the economy's reached debt saturation, their ability to mask their lack of control and understanding is no longer working. The result of this is increased volatility with bigger swings up and down as their masking mechanisms lose effectiveness and the system spirals more and more out of control. That is what I was trying to say in the quote above, not that they ever were able to control the system, but that they did have some tools, tools that are no longer working...
ErisDiscordia
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February 27, 2015, 06:02:27 PM
 #21596

It's quite likely we passed a complexity point where a small group of people can't perfectly manage this system around the end of the last century.

any systems related to human society have always been to complex to handle efficiently by a small group of people. The delusion that they can do so efficiently is a dangerous one and lies at the root of pretty much every problem human society is facing today. The basic problem has to do with information not being able to flow without distortions in a centralized system and executive power not lying where there is the biggest abundance of relevant information (with the individuals directly involved with a given situation)

Completely agree, this is why the invisible hand of the market always works infinitely better. The great depression, caused by the FED, was proof positive that they could not control or understand the system well enough.

However, they were able to mask their lack of control and understanding and maintain relative stability since then, by taking a continuously accommodation approach. This required continuous inflation and continuously increasing leverage in the banking sector, any 150 year chart of these shows this, we have had ~80 years of artificial stability at the price of steady inflation and credit expansion.

But, now that the economy's reached debt saturation, their ability to mask their lack of control and understanding is no longer working. The result of this is increased volatility with bigger swings up and down as their masking mechanisms lose effectiveness and the system spirals more and more out of control. That is what I was trying to say in the quote above, not that they ever were able to control the system, but that they did have some tools, tools that are no longer working...

I see now what you meant.

I'm quite surprised at how long their tools actually have been working to the degree they have. I guess this will make their ultimate failure all the more spectacular. My btc, gold and popcorn are ready.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
NotLambchop
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February 27, 2015, 06:06:54 PM
 #21597

The universal success of centralization and nation-states speaks for itself, as does nonexistence of alternative.
Face it, if [insert libertardian/anarcap flavor here] worked better than centralization, it would have displaced centralisation.
Why is this still being discussed?
marcus_of_augustus
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February 27, 2015, 08:06:20 PM
 #21598

just fyi … sensing some truly breakthrough developments in the wind. On the order of sidechain significance.

The great unknown about BitCoin is it is just the beginning in the intellectual pursuit of programmable money. No one can predict where this will lead with any certainty at all. But you can almost be sure that with over 30,000 bright energetic minds now turned on to crypto concepts and programmable money there are going to be unpredictable upside developments.

… it may be that block chain TX are comparatively rare yet we still all use bitcoin.

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

Blockchain is a very fundamental concept, some would say simple, obvious in retrospect, yes, but so is the transistor.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2xdgrc/intel_staffing_up_bitcoinblockchain_effort

molecular
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February 27, 2015, 10:55:56 PM
 #21599

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

bitcoin - the transistor of money?

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
marcus_of_augustus
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February 27, 2015, 11:32:22 PM
 #21600

Everybody is saying Bitcoin is the like TCP/IP layer protocol for internet money, what if the blockchain tech. is more analogous to the firmware level (assembly, microcode, etc) and we haven't even imagined the eventual value transport routing protocol layer developments yet??

bitcoin - the transistor of money?


yup, attribution please, you heard it here first. Wink

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