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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010214 times)
jsuder
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February 19, 2015, 04:38:01 PM
 #21361

Hive wallet is running a Bitcoin crowdfunding campaign on Lighthouse: https://mac.hivewallet.com/crowdfunding/

That's funny, cuz the CEO of Hive doesn't think Bitcoin should be valuable, nor considered money:
If you read the crowdfunding info page (specifically "Why Lighthouse?"), it says there that I'm really doing this independently. I'm collaborating with Hive Labs to some extent, and we're keeping this under the same brand, but technically I no longer work for Hive Labs, that's why I need another way to fund the development.

Former main developer of Hive Mac | @kuba_suder at Twitter
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NotHatinJustTrollin
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February 19, 2015, 04:40:37 PM
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Interesting:

"Another interesting fact that caught Wizsec’s eyes was the Willy’s static nature during the Japanese sleeping hours. The Mt. Gox bot was supposed to be automatic, but as it turns out there was hardly any trading activity. This speculation multiplied the belief that the bot was actually being controlled manually — probably by Mark Karpeles."





http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/05/27/mtgox-willy-markus/
I follow this guy on twitter and I admire him, but the article doesn't make much sense:

"For a pump and dump, there has to be a quick pump (buy action) to generate mass momentum, followed by a dump.
In this case, there was no quick pump; the buy orders were deliberately smeared across a very long time period. And there was no dump until the very end stage.
It's as simple as that. No fast pump, no dump, therefore not a pump and dump."


^^^What? This is false. A pump&dump doesn't have to be executed quickly to be a pump&dump, unless we are talking half a year to a year. The $1200 pump lasted two to three months. 2-3 months is a small time frame for a pump of that magnitude.

Large buys like those WILL have a BIG impact on the price, whether made in smaller chunks or not (impossible to buy that quantity of coins in a few market buys, literally impossible).


Also, is the author completely ignoring the fact that one of the mtgox bots (markus I believe) was buying with FAKE FIAT (amounts of money mtgox didn't actually have)? He didn't mention that.
Markus bought a gigantic quantity of BTC basically for free and Emin argues that that doesn't indicate any fraudulent activity?
cypherdoc
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February 19, 2015, 05:24:25 PM
 #21363

Interesting:

"Another interesting fact that caught Wizsec’s eyes was the Willy’s static nature during the Japanese sleeping hours. The Mt. Gox bot was supposed to be automatic, but as it turns out there was hardly any trading activity. This speculation multiplied the belief that the bot was actually being controlled manually — probably by Mark Karpeles."





http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/05/27/mtgox-willy-markus/
I follow this guy on twitter and I admire him, but the article doesn't make much sense:

"For a pump and dump, there has to be a quick pump (buy action) to generate mass momentum, followed by a dump.
In this case, there was no quick pump; the buy orders were deliberately smeared across a very long time period. And there was no dump until the very end stage.
It's as simple as that. No fast pump, no dump, therefore not a pump and dump."


^^^What? This is false. A pump&dump doesn't have to be executed quickly to be a pump&dump, unless we are talking half a year to a year. The $1200 pump lasted two to three months. 2-3 months is a small time frame for a pump of that magnitude.

Large buys like those WILL have a BIG impact on the price, whether made in smaller chunks or not (impossible to buy that quantity of coins in a few market buys, literally impossible).


Also, is the author completely ignoring the fact that one of the mtgox bots (markus I believe) was buying with FAKE FIAT (amounts of money mtgox didn't actually have)? He didn't mention that.
Markus bought a gigantic quantity of BTC basically for free and Emin argues that that doesn't indicate any fraudulent activity?

you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.
rocks
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February 19, 2015, 05:44:52 PM
 #21364

Hive wallet is running a Bitcoin crowdfunding campaign on Lighthouse: https://mac.hivewallet.com/crowdfunding/

That's funny, cuz the CEO of Hive doesn't think Bitcoin should be valuable, nor considered money:

...
We at Hive agree that so-called crypto-currency is not money—even if it can be used that way, and even if it is sometimes convenient to describe it that way. We're actively working on our language, but let me be crystal-clear about that perspective now.

I know that $1,000,000/BTC was an exit strategy for a handful of people, but there's nary a prayer of it playing out that way. We of Earth love our novelty, and I in particular find the idea of artificial digital scarcity so painfully fucking boring that I'm going to spend my time making your world view more difficult to sustain, as both a career and a hobby.

What I've never understood is why those who generally take a more collectivist view, can not just leave those who take more of an individualist view alone? What is it to Wendell, and the many like him, that make him want to force his world view on others? Why can't he just say "I disagree with crypto-currency and think it will fail" and leave it at that? So what is it to him if a minority of people decide to transact and use a different system? Is it some sense of moral superiority, or insecurity and the need to be right, or is it a fear that if individualists are allowed to choose their own path and live-and-let-be that more will join them and the collectivists will slowly run out of people to rob from?

If you read the crowdfunding info page (specifically "Why Lighthouse?"), it says there that I'm really doing this independently. I'm collaborating with Hive Labs to some extent, and we're keeping this under the same brand, but technically I no longer work for Hive Labs, that's why I need another way to fund the development.

Thanks for the development and making a viable wallet on the Mac platform. I'm not a Mac person but think it's great the platform has this.
ErisDiscordia
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February 19, 2015, 05:56:06 PM
 #21365

What I've never understood is why those who generally take a more collectivist view, can not just leave those who take more of an individualist view alone? What is it to Wendell, and the many like him, that make him want to force his world view on others? Why can't he just say "I disagree with crypto-currency and think it will fail" and leave it at that? So what is it to him if a minority of people decide to transact and use a different system? Is it some sense of moral superiority, or insecurity and the need to be right, or is it a fear that if individualists are allowed to choose their own path and live-and-let-be that more will join them and the collectivists will slowly run out of people to rob from?

As you can see, there are many splendid reasons for the collectivist to choose from. I'll add another big one: the fear of watching the outsider succeed. When you've lived your life according to what your parents, teachers, priests and peers have told you - you might have a safe spot in society and respect of your peers. Yet at the same time feel like you've wasted your potential. Not lived up to what could have been. Didn't do that round the world trip or write that book. So when you see someone trying to forfeit the cozy spot in society and the respect of their peers in order to try and grasp that singular, unique something their heart desires...you want them to fail. Because if they should succeed, it throws your whole life and what you have achieved into grave doubt and makes you question your self-image. And if there is one thing we can't bear to part with it is our illusions about ourselves.


It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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February 19, 2015, 06:03:22 PM
 #21366

The fear of the farmer when he realizes the flock is smarter than he is.
Melbustus
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February 19, 2015, 06:42:48 PM
 #21367

Hive wallet is running a Bitcoin crowdfunding campaign on Lighthouse: https://mac.hivewallet.com/crowdfunding/

That's funny, cuz the CEO of Hive doesn't think Bitcoin should be valuable, nor considered money:
If you read the crowdfunding info page (specifically "Why Lighthouse?"), it says there that I'm really doing this independently. I'm collaborating with Hive Labs to some extent, and we're keeping this under the same brand, but technically I no longer work for Hive Labs, that's why I need another way to fund the development.



Thanks for the clarification. This is tough for me. On one hand, I absolutely think solid wallet software should be on as many platforms as possible. But on the other hand, if the company (or even just the brand) backing that wallet has what I consider a fundamentally destructive attitude (and even outright objective, as Wendell's quote is pretty aggressive/vehement), the negatives of such a brand gaining more traction probably outweigh the positives.

In any event, I do appreciate you making the distinction (both here and on Reddit) between your project and views, and Hive as a company. Perhaps you'd consider re-branding away from Hive?

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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NotHatinJustTrollin
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February 19, 2015, 06:49:35 PM
 #21368

Interesting:

"Another interesting fact that caught Wizsec’s eyes was the Willy’s static nature during the Japanese sleeping hours. The Mt. Gox bot was supposed to be automatic, but as it turns out there was hardly any trading activity. This speculation multiplied the belief that the bot was actually being controlled manually — probably by Mark Karpeles."





http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/05/27/mtgox-willy-markus/
I follow this guy on twitter and I admire him, but the article doesn't make much sense:

"For a pump and dump, there has to be a quick pump (buy action) to generate mass momentum, followed by a dump.
In this case, there was no quick pump; the buy orders were deliberately smeared across a very long time period. And there was no dump until the very end stage.
It's as simple as that. No fast pump, no dump, therefore not a pump and dump."


^^^What? This is false. A pump&dump doesn't have to be executed quickly to be a pump&dump, unless we are talking half a year to a year. The $1200 pump lasted two to three months. 2-3 months is a small time frame for a pump of that magnitude.

Large buys like those WILL have a BIG impact on the price, whether made in smaller chunks or not (impossible to buy that quantity of coins in a few market buys, literally impossible).


Also, is the author completely ignoring the fact that one of the mtgox bots (markus I believe) was buying with FAKE FIAT (amounts of money mtgox didn't actually have)? He didn't mention that.
Markus bought a gigantic quantity of BTC basically for free and Emin argues that that doesn't indicate any fraudulent activity?

you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.
You're right, it's possible, but the whole thing is shady as hell. One of the bots was not paying fees, the other one was, one was paying with money technically not in the exchange, the other was not. The fact that the bot was active even when trading was closed to anybody else... etc.
It's possible it was a bot for wealthy clients that had favours, but many things don't add up.

Police is investigating and their findings and statements just add the the whole shadiness:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bitcoin-theft-mtgox-was-inside-job-according-police-1481599

In his article, Emin was basically saying that the willy report's findings are not a big deal and not an indication that the bot actions were manipulative. While we clearly don't have conclusive evidence, I would say we have few indications that something was not quite right.
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February 19, 2015, 06:59:02 PM
 #21369

As you can see, there are many splendid reasons for the collectivist to choose from. I'll add another big one: the fear of watching the outsider succeed. When you've lived your life according to what your parents, teachers, priests and peers have told you - you might have a safe spot in society and respect of your peers. Yet at the same time feel like you've wasted your potential. Not lived up to what could have been. Didn't do that round the world trip or write that book. So when you see someone trying to forfeit the cozy spot in society and the respect of their peers in order to try and grasp that singular, unique something their heart desires...you want them to fail. Because if they should succeed, it throws your whole life and what you have achieved into grave doubt and makes you question your self-image. And if there is one thing we can't bear to part with it is our illusions about ourselves.

Personally speaking, it is gems like this which makes reading the internet so rewarding.

rocks
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February 19, 2015, 07:25:02 PM
 #21370

As you can see, there are many splendid reasons for the collectivist to choose from. I'll add another big one: the fear of watching the outsider succeed. When you've lived your life according to what your parents, teachers, priests and peers have told you - you might have a safe spot in society and respect of your peers. Yet at the same time feel like you've wasted your potential. Not lived up to what could have been. Didn't do that round the world trip or write that book. So when you see someone trying to forfeit the cozy spot in society and the respect of their peers in order to try and grasp that singular, unique something their heart desires...you want them to fail. Because if they should succeed, it throws your whole life and what you have achieved into grave doubt and makes you question your self-image. And if there is one thing we can't bear to part with it is our illusions about ourselves.

Good point. This article, from theAtlantic of all places, touches on a similar vein.

The Rage of the Almost-Elite
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/10/the-rage-of-the-almost-elite/247638/
HeliKopterBen
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February 19, 2015, 07:38:51 PM
 #21371

Interesting:

"Another interesting fact that caught Wizsec’s eyes was the Willy’s static nature during the Japanese sleeping hours. The Mt. Gox bot was supposed to be automatic, but as it turns out there was hardly any trading activity. This speculation multiplied the belief that the bot was actually being controlled manually — probably by Mark Karpeles."





http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/05/27/mtgox-willy-markus/
I follow this guy on twitter and I admire him, but the article doesn't make much sense:

"For a pump and dump, there has to be a quick pump (buy action) to generate mass momentum, followed by a dump.
In this case, there was no quick pump; the buy orders were deliberately smeared across a very long time period. And there was no dump until the very end stage.
It's as simple as that. No fast pump, no dump, therefore not a pump and dump."


^^^What? This is false. A pump&dump doesn't have to be executed quickly to be a pump&dump, unless we are talking half a year to a year. The $1200 pump lasted two to three months. 2-3 months is a small time frame for a pump of that magnitude.

Large buys like those WILL have a BIG impact on the price, whether made in smaller chunks or not (impossible to buy that quantity of coins in a few market buys, literally impossible).


Also, is the author completely ignoring the fact that one of the mtgox bots (markus I believe) was buying with FAKE FIAT (amounts of money mtgox didn't actually have)? He didn't mention that.
Markus bought a gigantic quantity of BTC basically for free and Emin argues that that doesn't indicate any fraudulent activity?

you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.

What about all the bots shorting the market now with FAKE BITCOIN. 

I don't really believe in market manipulation on a wide scale, especially since we have a publicly verifiable blockchain, but it could be happening.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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February 19, 2015, 07:40:19 PM
 #21372


you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.
Yeah, buying when trading was closed, great way to give the whales a good price.  Roll Eyes

Between your hypothesis and Karpeles trying to make a quick buck even while he ruined Bitcoin for years, my gut makes a clear choice.
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February 19, 2015, 08:02:55 PM
 #21373

Interesting:

"Another interesting fact that caught Wizsec’s eyes was the Willy’s static nature during the Japanese sleeping hours. The Mt. Gox bot was supposed to be automatic, but as it turns out there was hardly any trading activity. This speculation multiplied the belief that the bot was actually being controlled manually — probably by Mark Karpeles."





http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/05/27/mtgox-willy-markus/
I follow this guy on twitter and I admire him, but the article doesn't make much sense:

"For a pump and dump, there has to be a quick pump (buy action) to generate mass momentum, followed by a dump.
In this case, there was no quick pump; the buy orders were deliberately smeared across a very long time period. And there was no dump until the very end stage.
It's as simple as that. No fast pump, no dump, therefore not a pump and dump."


^^^What? This is false. A pump&dump doesn't have to be executed quickly to be a pump&dump, unless we are talking half a year to a year. The $1200 pump lasted two to three months. 2-3 months is a small time frame for a pump of that magnitude.

Large buys like those WILL have a BIG impact on the price, whether made in smaller chunks or not (impossible to buy that quantity of coins in a few market buys, literally impossible).


Also, is the author completely ignoring the fact that one of the mtgox bots (markus I believe) was buying with FAKE FIAT (amounts of money mtgox didn't actually have)? He didn't mention that.
Markus bought a gigantic quantity of BTC basically for free and Emin argues that that doesn't indicate any fraudulent activity?

you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.

What about all the bots shorting the market now with FAKE BITCOIN. 

I don't really believe in market manipulation on a wide scale, especially since we have a publicly verifiable blockchain, but it could be happening.

yes, it could be.  i'm suspicious of BitFinex.  an audit of them would be worthwhile.

i'd love for naked shorts to be caught with their pants down, if it is occurring, and watch them scramble for a bailout in fiat.
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February 19, 2015, 08:07:21 PM
 #21374


you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.
Yeah, buying when trading was closed, great way to give the whales a good price.  Roll Eyes

Between your hypothesis and Karpeles trying to make a quick buck even while he ruined Bitcoin for years, my gut makes a clear choice.

that's not my hypothesis.  it's just a possibility i'm pointing out to counterbalance what NHJT said.

no doubt shady shit was going on, which is precisely why i tell ppl it would've been almost impossible to cash out at the top unless you had insider connections since getting fiat out of gox was next to impossible at the time and for sure extremely risky.  when i queried MK on IRC at the time when we touched gold @1200 about his ability to wire USD as there were delays, he tried to lure me into sending BTC for this purpose by telling me he might do me a special favor.  i lol'd and never did as that was a huge red flag and something to be avoided given all the delays everyone else was having.
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February 19, 2015, 08:09:23 PM
 #21375

Thanks for the clarification. This is tough for me. On one hand, I absolutely think solid wallet software should be on as many platforms as possible. But on the other hand, if the company (or even just the brand) backing that wallet has what I consider a fundamentally destructive attitude (and even outright objective, as Wendell's quote is pretty aggressive/vehement), the negatives of such a brand gaining more traction probably outweigh the positives.

In any event, I do appreciate you making the distinction (both here and on Reddit) between your project and views, and Hive as a company. Perhaps you'd consider re-branding away from Hive?
That's a nuclear option that will always be on the table, to be used when the disadvantages start outnumbering the advantages, but I'm not there yet.

Former main developer of Hive Mac | @kuba_suder at Twitter
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February 19, 2015, 08:28:00 PM
 #21376

somehow we have to pin this on Bitcoin:

If past HSBC transgressions are any indication, the amount of corrupted cash flowing through U.S. financial institutions could be absolutely startling. The aforementioned 2013 Senate report noted that HSBC allowed over $200 trillion in wire transfers to enter the U.S. unmonitored over a three-year period, including $670 billion in wire transfers from Mexico and at least $881 million in laundered money from Mexican and Columbian drug traffickers. In December 2012, HSBC agreed to pay a $1.92 billion settlement to federal and state authorities for failing to maintain an adequate AML program.

http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/beneficial-ownership-rules-would-drag-criminals-into-daylight-1072763-1.html#comments
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February 19, 2015, 08:35:33 PM
 #21377

somehow we have to pin this on Bitcoin:

The supernintendo is working on it, with them..whatever.
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February 19, 2015, 09:21:56 PM
 #21378

molecular:

can the Trezor ppl see our balances and tx's while the Trezor is logged into myTrezor.com?
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February 19, 2015, 09:25:49 PM
 #21379

somehow we have to pin this on Bitcoin:

If past HSBC transgressions are any indication, the amount of corrupted cash flowing through U.S. financial institutions could be absolutely startling. The aforementioned 2013 Senate report noted that HSBC allowed over $200 trillion in wire transfers to enter the U.S. unmonitored over a three-year period, including $670 billion in wire transfers from Mexico and at least $881 million in laundered money from Mexican and Columbian drug traffickers. In December 2012, HSBC agreed to pay a $1.92 billion settlement to federal and state authorities for failing to maintain an adequate AML program.

http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/beneficial-ownership-rules-would-drag-criminals-into-daylight-1072763-1.html#comments

... this is the kind of money that will inevitably start coursing through bitcoins veins in the not too distant future.

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February 19, 2015, 10:07:57 PM
 #21380

somehow we have to pin this on Bitcoin:

If past HSBC transgressions are any indication, the amount of corrupted cash flowing through U.S. financial institutions could be absolutely startling. The aforementioned 2013 Senate report noted that HSBC allowed over $200 trillion in wire transfers to enter the U.S. unmonitored over a three-year period, including $670 billion in wire transfers from Mexico and at least $881 million in laundered money from Mexican and Columbian drug traffickers. In December 2012, HSBC agreed to pay a $1.92 billion settlement to federal and state authorities for failing to maintain an adequate AML program.

http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/beneficial-ownership-rules-would-drag-criminals-into-daylight-1072763-1.html#comments

Yes, for many of us its not that we are against regulation; if there was a magic oracle that correctly flagged money transfers that occur for illegal purposes then ok let's use it.  But the reality is that regulation simply sets the bar higher, encouraging the formation of organizations that can pay big bribes, hire smart lawyers, money managers, etc.  In other words, cartels.  Better to have no money laundering regulation than a fantasy situation that only inconveniences honest people/businesses.  People and businesses whose profit margins are much smaller so they can't purchase the money managers and lawyers required to deal with the regs.


you don't know it was FAKE FIAT.

gox could've been buying on behalf of a large whale.  plus, volumes on Chinese exchanges were large at the time.
Yeah, buying when trading was closed, great way to give the whales a good price.  Roll Eyes

Between your hypothesis and Karpeles trying to make a quick buck even while he ruined Bitcoin for years, my gut makes a clear choice.

that's not my hypothesis.  it's just a possibility i'm pointing out to counterbalance what NHJT said.

no doubt shady shit was going on, which is precisely why i tell ppl it would've been almost impossible to cash out at the top unless you had insider connections since getting fiat out of gox was next to impossible at the time and for sure extremely risky.  when i queried MK on IRC at the time when we touched gold @1200 about his ability to wire USD as there were delays, he tried to lure me into sending BTC for this purpose by telling me he might do me a special favor.  i lol'd and never did as that was a huge red flag and something to be avoided given all the delays everyone else was having.

Yes, in retrospect we didn't touch gold.  ~1050 was the highest price you could cash out at (bitstamp).


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