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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1922240 times)
justusranvier
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March 06, 2015, 02:47:22 PM
 #21721

Firstly, I really want to thank you for what you've done here. You've perfectly formalized (and theoretically solved) a problem that was in the back of my mind since I've properly understood the bitcoin network topology.
I should thank MojoNation. I've been musing about the problem ever since I encountered their (unsuccessful) attempt to solve it. In particularly, their experience was a great case study in why price discovery needs to be fully automatic on both sides of the transaction.

Secondly, as of your knowledge, are the core devs aware of this issue? Do they agree with the given definition of the problem? And more to the point, is there a plan to develop something along the line of your proposed solution?
To the best of my knowledge, they are aware of it. None of them have commented, however.

I don't know of any immediate, specific plans to implement this.
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March 06, 2015, 04:18:00 PM
 #21722

Firstly, I really want to thank you for what you've done here. You've perfectly formalized (and theoretically solved) a problem that was in the back of my mind since I've properly understood the bitcoin network topology.
I should thank MojoNation. I've been musing about the problem ever since I encountered their (unsuccessful) attempt to solve it. In particularly, their experience was a great case study in why price discovery needs to be fully automatic on both sides of the transaction.

Secondly, as of your knowledge, are the core devs aware of this issue? Do they agree with the given definition of the problem? And more to the point, is there a plan to develop something along the line of your proposed solution?
To the best of my knowledge, they are aware of it. None of them have commented, however.

I don't know of any immediate, specific plans to implement this.

have you considered issues of, I don't know what to call it, maybe "hyperpriceification"?  That is, when every tiny thing requires a micro-transaction the system suffers from certain drawbacks:
1. overly complex
2. inefficient
3. bootstrap issues both technical and social:
   a) technical: I can't get bitcoin blockchain info without paying for them, but I can't make a wallet until I get the info
   b) social barriers to entry: I can't try a bitcoin wallet, just to see if it basically works, until I acquire some coin and pay for bootstrap data



cypherdoc
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March 06, 2015, 04:46:57 PM
 #21723

traditional financial mkts getting monkey hammered today.

large Dow Theory non conf in position and enlarging.

UST's down, dollar up.  always thought one would go down but bonds?

Gold major collapsing, Bitcoin UP.

Gold stocks getting crushed again.

i definitely like UP:

justusranvier
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March 06, 2015, 04:55:26 PM
 #21724

have you considered issues of, I don't know what to call it, maybe "hyperpriceification"?
I have.

1. overly complex

"Overly" is a relative statement that is only meaningful when compared to the skill of the people implementing it.

2. inefficient
Payment channels are a perfect fit for this particular application, and they can be made very efficient, both in terms of blockchain transactions needed and in terms of bytes per adjustment and frequency of adjustments.

3. bootstrap issues both technical and social:
   a) technical: I can't get bitcoin blockchain info without paying for them, but I can't make a wallet until I get the info
   b) social barriers to entry: I can't try a bitcoin wallet, just to see if it basically works, until I acquire some coin and pay for bootstrap data
If nobody can use Bitcoin without first having bitcoins, then nobody makes any money for operating a network that nobody can use.

I expect that enough people will realize this that a freemium model will develop. Some nodes will offer a limited number of free connection slots so there will be ways to connect and operate without paying. Those who can pay for access will get more reliable service.
cypherdoc
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March 06, 2015, 04:58:42 PM
 #21725

have you considered issues of, I don't know what to call it, maybe "hyperpriceification"?
I have.

1. overly complex

"Overly" is a relative statement that is only meaningful when compared to the skill of the people implementing it.

2. inefficient
Payment channels are a perfect fit for this particular application, and they can be made very efficient, both in terms of blockchain transactions needed and in terms of bytes per adjustment and frequency of adjustments.

3. bootstrap issues both technical and social:
   a) technical: I can't get bitcoin blockchain info without paying for them, but I can't make a wallet until I get the info
   b) social barriers to entry: I can't try a bitcoin wallet, just to see if it basically works, until I acquire some coin and pay for bootstrap data
If nobody can use Bitcoin without first having bitcoins, then nobody makes any money for operating a network that nobody can use.

I expect that enough people will realize this that a freemium model will develop. Some nodes will offer a limited number of free connection slots so there will be ways to connect and operate without paying. Those who can pay for access will get more reliable service.

there's enough of us around who will always run free nodes.  it's fun, technically challenging, and just all around helpful.

it's a warm, fuzzy feeling...
Adrian-x
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March 06, 2015, 05:33:12 PM
 #21726

have you considered issues of, I don't know what to call it, maybe "hyperpriceification"?
I have.

1. overly complex

"Overly" is a relative statement that is only meaningful when compared to the skill of the people implementing it.

2. inefficient
Payment channels are a perfect fit for this particular application, and they can be made very efficient, both in terms of blockchain transactions needed and in terms of bytes per adjustment and frequency of adjustments.

3. bootstrap issues both technical and social:
   a) technical: I can't get bitcoin blockchain info without paying for them, but I can't make a wallet until I get the info
   b) social barriers to entry: I can't try a bitcoin wallet, just to see if it basically works, until I acquire some coin and pay for bootstrap data
If nobody can use Bitcoin without first having bitcoins, then nobody makes any money for operating a network that nobody can use.

I expect that enough people will realize this that a freemium model will develop. Some nodes will offer a limited number of free connection slots so there will be ways to connect and operate without paying. Those who can pay for access will get more reliable service.

there's enough of us around who will always run free nodes.  it's fun, technically challenging, and just all around helpful.

it's a warm, fuzzy feeling...

there is a financial motive to run a free node, it isn't true altruism.

If Bitcoin becomes a network of much value, then anyone who has the skill and enjoys building computers, and who is invested in Bitcoin in what would be considered a small way say 21 BTC possibly even 2.1 BTC today, will likely be financially enabled and motivated to keep and broadcast a copy of the blockchain that secures the integrity of the network (note: nodes also keep the miners honest). In my view this act ensuring the coins they own on that blockchain are preserved along with the value they represent.

In a way it's like having a safe to keep your valuables, now it is you have a node to preserve your record.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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March 06, 2015, 06:11:46 PM
 #21727

there is a financial motive to run a free node, it isn't true altruism.
Think about why Starbucks pays to supply their customers with free wifi, and why people still pay for mobile data plans in spite of the relatively widespread access to free wifi, and it will make sense how free and paid Bitcoin nodes could co-exist.
cypherdoc
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March 06, 2015, 06:34:04 PM
 #21728

there is a financial motive to run a free node, it isn't true altruism.
Think about why Starbucks pays to supply their customers with free wifi, and why people still pay for mobile data plans in spite of the relatively widespread access to free wifi, and it will make sense how free and paid Bitcoin nodes could co-exist.

Yes, these principles are very well articulated. 
cypherdoc
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March 06, 2015, 06:37:39 PM
 #21729

Gold getting smashed. And rightfully so.

 Welcome to the Age of Bitcoin. 
NotLambchop
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March 06, 2015, 07:04:30 PM
 #21730

Gold getting smashed. And rightfully so.

 Welcome to the Age of Bitcoin. 

You know, gold ain't half bad if we just use BTC as unit of account.
Did great in 2014 & 2015 Cool
ranlo
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March 06, 2015, 07:13:10 PM
 #21731

Gold getting smashed. And rightfully so.

 Welcome to the Age of Bitcoin. 

I still don't get why we use gold as a "standard," anyways. Why not Platinum or something more rare?

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NoIgnoreCapisce?
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March 06, 2015, 07:16:50 PM
 #21732

We should use bitcoin, amazing store of value for the average joe.



http://media.gotraffic.net/images/ixkhK3oLG4ZE/v38/-1x-1.jpg
cypherdoc
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March 06, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
 #21733

We should use bitcoin, amazing store of value for the average joe.





Sigh  Roll Eyes
Hfleer
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March 06, 2015, 08:53:08 PM
 #21734

We should use bitcoin, amazing store of value for the average joe.





This chart is highly missleading. Why did you choose such an arbitrary zoom?
It is like you are implying that all people bought at exactly 900 USD.

█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
▓▓▓▓▓  BIT-X.comvvvvvvvvvvvvvvi
→ CREATE ACCOUNT 
▓▓▓▓▓
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
ssmc2
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March 06, 2015, 09:04:29 PM
 #21735



This chart is highly missleading. Why did you choose such an arbitrary zoom?
It is like you are implying that all people bought at exactly 900 USD.

Because troll.
leopard2
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March 06, 2015, 09:13:13 PM
 #21736

Gold is not doing bad in EUR

And keep in mind gold has done great over 20 years, when there was no Bitcoin

Gold will exist in 20 years, BTC not sure

Major reason for gold weakness is: MANIPULATION VIA PAPER GOLD

90+% of gold transactions is paper gold, futures etc; gold is created from thin air via paper certificates and sold short....the papers can never be redeemed for real gold just fiat money, therefore this can be done in an unlimited amount

Now with BTC this is impossible, because no paper BTC exist, cannot exist due to limited amount and deflationary behaviour

BTC and Gold both deserve to exist but not fiat money  Angry

Truth is the new hatespeech.
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9.9.2012: I predict that single digits... <- FAIL


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March 06, 2015, 09:16:00 PM
 #21737

Gold will exist in 20 years, BTC not sure

But what will the value of gold be in 20 years?
brg444
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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March 06, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
 #21738

Gold is not doing bad in EUR

And keep in mind gold has done great over 20 years, when there was no Bitcoin

Gold will exist in 20 years, BTC not sure

Major reason for gold weakness is: MANIPULATION VIA PAPER GOLD

90+% of gold transactions is paper gold, futures etc; gold is created from thin air via paper certificates and sold short....the papers can never be redeemed for real gold just fiat money, therefore this can be done in an unlimited amount

Now with BTC this is impossible, because no paper BTC exist, cannot exist due to limited amount and deflationary behaviour

BTC and Gold both deserve to exist but not fiat money  Angry

Well then shouldn't we do away with gold entirely since it is so easily gamed?


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
uki
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March 06, 2015, 09:36:38 PM
 #21739

Gold getting smashed. And rightfully so.

 Welcome to the Age of Bitcoin.  
I am afraid gold and Bitcoin are on the same side of barricade. The wrong one. The one against dollar.
Dollar is painted as the king, thus gold must be smashed, this time on the job report. and no matter the results from the previous month were corrected - lowered by 30 thousands. Show must go on, let's kick the can further.
As soon as Bitcoin emerges as a real alternative to the dollar (which is very far from, atm), expect the same. Rinse and repeat.

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March 06, 2015, 09:41:34 PM
 #21740

Gold will exist in 20 years, BTC not sure

But what will the value of gold be in 20 years?
Gold existed since the dawn of the man. I wouldn't worry of its cost in 20, 50 or even 500 years. Bitcoin from the other hand is around only for couple a years, and if something goes really wrong can disappear even faster.

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