[XMR] Monero Speculation

[dEBRUYNE]

@futureofbitcoin: Blocktrail asks a premium for their minted coins, hence my post :-)

[fartbags]

Retweet this to get some speculative trading analysis done by professionals:
https://twitter.com/jessecouch/status/646747329781964801

XMR looks like a pretty good buy and is a fantastic coin.

Nice getting this out there. I'm doing some 2.5x margin trading on poloniex with this coin. I'm going long.

[fartbags]

Retweet this to get some speculative trading analysis done by professionals:
https://twitter.com/jessecouch/status/646747329781964801

XMR looks like a pretty good buy and is a fantastic coin.

Nice getting this out there. I'm doing some 2.5x margin trading on poloniex with this coin. I'm going long.

I hope coinigy says im correct! Is it going to be on the show in 2 hours?

[box0214]

how does nxt's upcoming coin shuffling feature compare to monero's? whats the pros/cons of each ?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else, so please don't tell me that MSBs and merchants won't willingly use chain analysis services for payment verification in the future.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

[wpalczynski]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

Cant believe people are still pretending Bitcoin is fungible.  It is a lot of things but certainly not that.  A whole industry has sprung up around taint/blockchain analysis.

[onemorexmr]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

Cant believe people are still pretending Bitcoin is fungible.  It is a lot of things but certainly not that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp39qSdyTc4

[XMRpromotions]

how does nxt's upcoming coin shuffling feature compare to monero's? whats the pros/cons of each ?

coinshuffle can be compared to an improved version of coinjoin and is just another form of mixing. nxt would be better off gaining the advantages of cryptonote privacy by integrating bbr into supernet as quickly as possible. Their emphasis on promoting nxt and btcd tech instead seems to be for the purposes of making money from the coins they own more of instead of using the best tech they have available.

Monero has absolutely nothing to worry about in terms of a privacy tech war with nxt.

If you want a more technical overview of coinshuffle start here:
http://crypsys.mmci.uni-saarland.de/projects/CoinShuffle/

[generalizethis]

To comment on a theme that makes me feel better about my XMR holdings: People who think no one cares or don't care themselves about privacy/fungibility, don't see Monero as special. People who care about privacy/fungibility or are knowledgeable about the subject do see Monero as special.  
 
Smart consumers will buy based on these factors:

1. The best solution (By all expert accounts, Monero is the best privacy solution available--though AEON, from I've read, is up there too, but lacks the market cap to fulfill a large transaction quickly and loses #3 in a close race).

2. The most cost effective solution (Monero should be cheaper than mixers and other solutions, but may be a wash due to having to use a third party like xmr.to or shapeshift for most purchasing. Though if they are tied in costs, you should chose the XMR option as it wins #1).

3. The solution they can afford (the coins have no premium, so unless you are sending a very large amount, your transaction should be sending 1 dollars worth of XMR or BTC for 1 dollars worth of XMR or BTC. So for small transactions it is a wash. And for large transactions BTC still enjoys a comfortable lead).

4. The solution they know about (hands down BTC wins this one).

This list is by know means comprehensive. But what you should notice is as Bitcoin loses fungibility (or the deficiency becomes more apparent) 1 and 2 go more and more to Monero. And as 1 and 2 go more and more to Monero, Bitcoin's lead in 3 and 4 becomes less and less (paying premiums on "new" or "washed-clean" coins and more and more people looking for a better/cheaper solution). This is why fungibility matters to an investor.

[Hueristic]

... No one cares about fungibility. They care whether their money can be spent.

This is what we are trying to explain to you. Fungability assures no coin can be discerned from another and therefore cannot be blocked from being spent. I think maybe you are misinterpreting the meaning of fungability as it relates to currencies?

...
The main point is, can my money be used for services I want/need to use? If BTC-e wants to lose customers, they are free to do so. It'll be a long time before all or even most governments and companies come to an agreement on which coins to black or whitelist.

We agree that that is the main point, what your not seeing is that with a fungable asset no entity can choose to not accept some of an asset without accepting all of it. Maybe I'm not being clear here, I'll let others explain this concept from here on out.

[smoothie]

@futureofbitcoin: Blocktrail asks a premium for their minted coins, hence my post :-)

what kind of premium we talking?

[smoothie]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else, so please don't tell me that MSBs and merchants won't willingly use chain analysis services for payment verification in the future.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

You just made me think of when a theft happens there is a window of opportunity to send coins to businesses/merchants to trade or cash them out.

That window of time does exist as not everyone will have an updated BLACKLIST to reference.

What it comes down to is what is the process of blacklisting a theft that happened 2 minutes ago and you did not hear about it and you are one of the bigger chain analysis companies/sites that provides such a service?

Sounds like a thief could do something in that window of opportunity to cash out or trade coins for things/money before that service updates their blacklist.

[generalizethis]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else, so please don't tell me that MSBs and merchants won't willingly use chain analysis services for payment verification in the future.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

You just made me think of when a theft happens there is a window of opportunity to send coins to businesses/merchants to trade or cash them out.

That window of time does exist as not everyone will have an updated BLACKLIST to reference.

What it comes down to is what is the process of blacklisting a theft that happened 2 minutes ago and you did not hear about it and you are one of the bigger chain analysis companies/sites that provides such a service?

Sounds like a thief could do something in that window of opportunity to cash out or trade coins for things/money before that service updates their blacklist.

Wonder if some companies will adopt a "wait and see" approach on big transactions--I know I would.

[smoothie]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else, so please don't tell me that MSBs and merchants won't willingly use chain analysis services for payment verification in the future.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

You just made me think of when a theft happens there is a window of opportunity to send coins to businesses/merchants to trade or cash them out.

That window of time does exist as not everyone will have an updated BLACKLIST to reference.

What it comes down to is what is the process of blacklisting a theft that happened 2 minutes ago and you did not hear about it and you are one of the bigger chain analysis companies/sites that provides such a service?

Sounds like a thief could do something in that window of opportunity to cash out or trade coins for things/money before that service updates their blacklist.

Wonder if some companies will adopt a "wait and see" approach on big transactions--I know I would.

What would they be waiting for to see?

[generalizethis]

You guys keep talking about governments creating/enforcing black lists. Governments don't have to enforce any such blacklist for there to be one. Companies like Chainalysis will offer address screening/validation services that merchants will choose to adopt, not because they are required to, but for liability purposes. It's simply a wise legal decision that protects them from lawsuit.

That way if someone steals 10,000 bitcoins and funnels it through XYZ business, XYZ can say "don't blame us! We took these security measures and all our transactions are verified through the Chainalysis/Coinalytics/whatever gateway to be free of suspicious activity." Third party services are some of the easiest ways for businesses to limit their liability and pass responsibility to someone else, so please don't tell me that MSBs and merchants won't willingly use chain analysis services for payment verification in the future.

The bottom line is that if a currency is not fungible, you can't expect everyone to pretend that it is.

You just made me think of when a theft happens there is a window of opportunity to send coins to businesses/merchants to trade or cash them out.

That window of time does exist as not everyone will have an updated BLACKLIST to reference.

What it comes down to is what is the process of blacklisting a theft that happened 2 minutes ago and you did not hear about it and you are one of the bigger chain analysis companies/sites that provides such a service?

Sounds like a thief could do something in that window of opportunity to cash out or trade coins for things/money before that service updates their blacklist.

Wonder if some companies will adopt a "wait and see" approach on big transactions--I know I would.

What would they be waiting for to see?

To see if the analytic software white or black lists them. IE. brown listing coins over certain value threshold.

[iCEBREAKER]

There are Gold Bugs on my facebook page that are technology savvy, and aware of the Fiat ponzi scam, yet still refuse to acknowledge crypto. It reminds me what a peculiar type of brain you need in order to be on here and be aware of Monero.

Gold/silver bug = cognitive elite

Bitcoin/Monero holder = cognitive royalty

[iCEBREAKER]

People who think no one cares or don't care themselves about privacy/fungibility, don't see Monero as special. People who care about privacy/fungibility or are knowledgeable about the subject do see Monero as special.  

Fuck the sheeple; they will fall in line behind us bellwethers.  Asymmetry is our side.  That's why small groups of "stubborn" committed people can change the world.

https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/638525850053382144

https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/637617677708697600

[owm123]

@futureofbitcoin: Blocktrail asks a premium for their minted coins, hence my post :-)

what kind of premium we talking?

i think he talks about this:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114806/mint-exchange-service-for-newly-mined-coins-rebuffs-bitcoins-fungibility

from the article:

"coins that are awarded to the miner of a new block through the coinbase transaction – are worth more than used ones."

and

"BlockTrail currently charges an additional 10% for newly mined bitcoins".

[TrueCryptonaire]

When people did not trust USD (free banking era, late 1800s), it was common to make debts payable in gold.

One of the most shameful acts ever in the history of central banking (not that it in any way lacks shameful acts to compare with) was to retroactively declare such terms void in 1933 (in addition to forbidding making new ones). So people who had lent gold to other people in full accordance with all existing laws, got only about half back.

I am telling this just to present the playing field. Unfair statutes have been made as long as government has existed, and will. The freeman's responsibility is to select the ones he wants to comply with. In this thread far too few have realized the name of the game, so please forgive the old grump.

Fractional Reserve Banking is profitable for an individual if (s)he knows how to play with it.

For instance currently in Finland if you have income enough and ability to repay a loan you are able to get quite cheap financing from the banks. Even the fixed rates are low (around 3 % for 15 year fixed mortgage rate when I asked how much we would need to pay for the loan, it is cheaper of course if you do not fix the interest rate).
Banks are lending up to 95 % of the value which means you can become wealthy if you have some money to put as downpayment and let your tenants repay your loan + interest.

Personally I am willing to take as much loans as possible which I can get for these low rates, and not for consumption but for buying assets that the banks are accepting as collateral and getting a residual cashflow from those.

[Shrikez]

When people did not trust USD (free banking era, late 1800s), it was common to make debts payable in gold.

One of the most shameful acts ever in the history of central banking (not that it in any way lacks shameful acts to compare with) was to retroactively declare such terms void in 1933 (in addition to forbidding making new ones). So people who had lent gold to other people in full accordance with all existing laws, got only about half back.

I am telling this just to present the playing field. Unfair statutes have been made as long as government has existed, and will. The freeman's responsibility is to select the ones he wants to comply with. In this thread far too few have realized the name of the game, so please forgive the old grump.

Fractional Reserve Banking is profitable for an individual if (s)he knows how to play with it.

For instance currently in Finland if you have income enough and ability to repay a loan you are able to get quite cheap financing from the banks. Even the fixed rates are low (around 3 % for 15 year fixed mortgage rate when I asked how much we would need to pay for the loan, it is cheaper of course if you do not fix the interest rate).
Banks are lending up to 95 % of the value which means you can become wealthy if you have some money to put as downpayment and let your tenants repay your loan + interest.

Personally I am willing to take as much loans as possible which I can get for these low rates, and not for consumption but for buying assets that the banks are accepting as collateral and getting a residual cashflow from those.

I am usually the benevolent type but after your latest stunt I kindly ask you to chose another cryptocurrency for your speculation games.