[XMR] Monero Speculation

[dEBRUYNE]

Crosspost worthy from the official forum:

I'm going to start this thread as a precursor for additions to the official website section.

Check that a recipient has received your funds:

http://xmrtests.llcoins.net/checktx.html

Tools for monero address generation

http://xmrtests.llcoins.net/addresstests.html

If anything is funky/not working as expected with those pages, please let me know. You can also save the webpage and use it offline (or at least locally in case the online version got compromised).

Also, if someone skilled with CSS wants to pretty the pages up, please contact me!

Edit: I speculate nothing.

Edit2: Except I did buy some Monero yesterday (TC style! (or do I have to post amounts for that?)).

Only if you're going to dump in a few days, so we can prepare!

[1714851185]

1714851185

[newb4now]

Crosspost worthy from the official forum:

I'm going to start this thread as a precursor for additions to the official website section.

Check that a recipient has received your funds:

http://xmrtests.llcoins.net/checktx.html

Tools for monero address generation

http://xmrtests.llcoins.net/addresstests.html

If anything is funky/not working as expected with those pages, please let me know. You can also save the webpage and use it offline (or at least locally in case the online version got compromised).

Nice resources! Thank you very much

[rikkejohn]

Why did it not go on cryptopia? It won the vote.

[iCEBREAKER]

Dash Masternodes are not a ponzi for one main reason there is a fix percentage of the block rewards that is divided  between all masternodes

MadoffNode percentage of the block reward is not fixed.

The percentage depends on the vagaries of whales 'voting' in new violations of the previous social contract, like for example SuperBlocks.

Nothing in Dash is fixed, certainly not the bolloxed emission, and not even the brand (formerly Xcoin, formerly Darkcoin).  Everything is subject to the whims of its single core dev, which change as often and with as much reason as the wind.

Dash is whatever eduffield does.  It's one dude's vanity project dressed up like a legitimate coin for marketing purposes.

[rikkejohn]

Dash Masternodes are not a ponzi for one main reason there is a fix percentage of the block rewards that is divided  between all masternodes

MadoffNode percentage of the block reward is not fixed.

The percentage depends on the vagaries of whales 'voting' in new violations of the previous social contract, like for example SuperBlocks.

Nothing in Dash is fixed, certainly not the bolloxed emission, and not even the brand (formerly Xcoin, formerly Darkcoin).  Everything is subject to the whims of its single core dev, which change as often and with as much reason as the wind.

Dash is whatever eduffield does.  It's one dude's vanity project dressed up like a legitimate coin for marketing purposes.

That is what you call rhetoric over reasoned argument.

There are too many high ranked members backing this coin to make it appear legitimate. I am alleging, not stating it is true, that half are bought.= accounts.

100 BTC you can have mine. Okay, 90 BTC.

[smooth]

Dash Masternodes are not a ponzi for one main reason there is a fix percentage of the block rewards that is divided  between all masternodes

MadoffNode percentage of the block reward is not fixed.

The percentage depends on the vagaries of whales 'voting' in new violations of the previous social contract, like for example SuperBlocks.

Nothing in Dash is fixed, certainly not the bolloxed emission, and not even the brand (formerly Xcoin, formerly Darkcoin).  Everything is subject to the whims of its single core dev, which change as often and with as much reason as the wind.

Dash is whatever eduffield does.  It's one dude's vanity project dressed up like a legitimate coin for marketing purposes.

That is what you call rhetoric over reasoned argument.

There are too many high ranked members backing this coin to make it appear legitimate. I am alleging, not stating it is true, that half are bought.= accounts.

100 BTC you can have mine. Okay, 90 BTC.

An account is only worth the value of its reputation. I'd offer you a maximum of 1 sat. No, on second thought, I wouldn't.

[jehst]

What if there were some totally unique service or thing that you could ONLY buy with cryptocurrencies conveniently? Something that could not be duplicated. That would be enough to remove the ponzi "smell" from cryptocurrencies.

Gold and silver have unique molecular makeups. There are some things that gold or silver can do that other things simply can't do. That is separate from the fact that there's a limited amount of these metals in the Earth's crust and separate from the fact that they are shiny. Therefore, gold and silver can't be considered ponzis. As long as the materials themselves serve some useful purpose, they will hold value.

In theory, we don't need anything besides speculation for cryptocurrencies to hold value. They can hold value if we all just "decide" that they hold value. But this is a collective mind game that may not stand the test of overwhelming universal bearishness or mass panic (which inevitably and periodically arise).

We have to keep searching. It is not enough to "just get a GUI" or identify a large potential market. Fundamentally, we really need a clear reason why XMR will continue to exist and hold value for the foreseeable future. Are we waiting for the entire global government fiat system to collapse, create a vacuum, and for cryptocurrencies to then fill the void? That seems very unlikely (as there will always be at least one government left standing that people trust) and it's something we have no control over. What's more likely is that a killer app propels cryptocurrency forward and people voluntarily switch over from inferior alternatives. What's more likely still is that cryptocurrencies sorta just languish for a while like battery technology. (The first true battery was made in the year 1800, but the first practical use of batteries (to power telegraphs and whatnot) didn't come around until after 1835).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_battery#Invention_of_the_battery

I will say that if the global political environment becomes such that major-league tax evasion is necessary for everyone (rich and poor) just to survive, and physical cash and gold coins are banned, and every visible form of economic activity becomes strangled by rentseekers, then cryptocurrency will become very attractive. But frankly, that world doesn't sound very fun whether your cryptocurrency or secret gold stash has become worth a lot or not.

/musing

[hodlmybtc]

Dash Masternodes are not a ponzi for one main reason there is a fix percentage of the block rewards that is divided  between all masternodes

MadoffNode percentage of the block reward is not fixed.

The percentage depends on the vagaries of whales 'voting' in new violations of the previous social contract, like for example SuperBlocks.

Nothing in Dash is fixed, certainly not the bolloxed emission, and not even the brand (formerly Xcoin, formerly Darkcoin).  Everything is subject to the whims of its single core dev, which change as often and with as much reason as the wind.

Dash is whatever eduffield does.  It's one dude's vanity project dressed up like a legitimate coin for marketing purposes.

That is what you call rhetoric over reasoned argument.

There are too many high ranked members backing this coin to make it appear legitimate. I am alleging, not stating it is true, that half are bought.= accounts.

100 BTC you can have mine. Okay, 90 BTC.

An account is only worth the value of its reputation. I'd offer you a maximum of 1 sat. No, on second thought, I wouldn't.

Haha indeed, the first of 3 of this trust ratings says: Potentially hacked account. Trade with caution

Anyways it's an old myth that came up in some XMR hate thread, keep trying trolls

[owm123]

Just for the sake of accuracy, Dash Masternodes are not a ponzi for one main reason there is a fix percentage of the block rewards that is divided  between all masternodes, as more join the network the reward for a node is less and less, tending to zero and finding equilibrium. So completely contrary to a Ponzi as more people join everyone's rewards go down.

Also, you don't give away control of your money to a third party, it is a liquid investment and you are always free to sell your coins. Not even when you use a masternode hosting service do you give your private keys.  The only situation in which you trust your keys to another person is when you want to pool your funds with another user to complete the collateral for a node.  So it is literally not a Ponzi. 

And sorry for the post, no intention to spam just felt misinformation needs to be corrected where it happens for the sake of everyone being correctly informed.  I am not saying the model is good, just that it is not a Ponzi.

Other than that, I agree Crypto Kingdom is a really interesting project and I am waiting to see how the Economy version goes, is very interesting to have playable real money.

The idea of masternodes is not perfect. Simply because you relay on third parties (i.e. masternodes) to do mixing for you. You cant do it on your side. Also, if you want to run a masternode, you are stopped by a pay wall of 1000 dash. Which is not good. They say that the pay wall is to protect bad people running master nodes, which also does not make sense. If a pay wall helps secure network, than why not make it 10k dash or 1milion dash? Continuing in this vain, the more it costs to run a masternode, the more secure the network is. 

[iCEBREAKER]

The idea of masternodes is not perfect. Simply because you relay on third parties (i.e. masternodes) to do mixing for you. You cant do it on your side. Also, if you want to run a masternode, you are stopped by a pay wall of 1000 dash. Which is not good. They say that the pay wall is to protect bad people running master nodes, which also does not make sense. If a pay wall helps secure network, than why not make it 10k dash or 1milion dash? Continuing in this vain, the more it costs to run a masternode, the more secure the network is. 

Don't give Galvin and Heam any bright ideas.  They'll read ^that^ and decide you have to keep 1000 BTC locked up to run a full XT node.   

[ArticMine]

What if there were some totally unique service or thing that you could ONLY buy with cryptocurrencies conveniently? Something that could not be duplicated. That would be enough to remove the ponzi "smell" from cryptocurrencies.

Gold and silver have unique molecular makeups. There are some things that gold or silver can do that other things simply can't do. That is separate from the fact that there's a limited amount of these metals in the Earth's crust and separate from the fact that they are shiny. Therefore, gold and silver can't be considered ponzis. As long as the materials themselves serve some useful purpose, they will hold value.

In theory, we don't need anything besides speculation for cryptocurrencies to hold value. They can hold value if we all just "decide" that they hold value. But this is a collective mind game that may not stand the test of overwhelming universal bearishness or mass panic (which inevitably and periodically arise).

We have to keep searching. It is not enough to "just get a GUI" or identify a large potential market. Fundamentally, we really need a clear reason why XMR will continue to exist and hold value for the foreseeable future. Are we waiting for the entire global government fiat system to collapse, create a vacuum, and for cryptocurrencies to then fill the void? That seems very unlikely (as there will always be at least one government left standing that people trust) and it's something we have no control over. What's more likely is that a killer app propels cryptocurrency forward and people voluntarily switch over from inferior alternatives. What's more likely still is that cryptocurrencies sorta just languish for a while like battery technology. (The first true battery was made in the year 1800, but the first practical use of batteries (to power telegraphs and whatnot) didn't come around until after 1835).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_battery#Invention_of_the_battery

I will say that if the global political environment becomes such that major-league tax evasion is necessary for everyone (rich and poor) just to survive, and physical cash and gold coins are banned, and every visible form of economic activity becomes strangled by rentseekers, then cryptocurrency will become very attractive. But frankly, that world doesn't sound very fun whether your cryptocurrency or secret gold stash has become worth a lot or not.

/musing

Crypto currencies provide a very important solution. This is the ability to send money at a distance without the need for a trusted third party. When the buyer and seller can meet in person to complete a transaction one can use fiat cash but this is not an option when for example the buyer and seller are in different continents. As for the market it is those who cannot get or use a bank account, debit / credit card, Paypal etc for the transaction for what ever reason. In many cases the reason is poverty on the part of the buyer or seller or both.

Edit: There are many innovative money transfer systems that work only within one country. It is when international boundaries are crossed that fees and intermediaries make relatively small transactions say below 100 US very expensive.

[owm123]

What if there were some totally unique service or thing that you could ONLY buy with cryptocurrencies conveniently? Something that could not be duplicated. That would be enough to remove the ponzi "smell" from cryptocurrencies.

Gold and silver have unique molecular makeups. There are some things that gold or silver can do that other things simply can't do. That is separate from the fact that there's a limited amount of these metals in the Earth's crust and separate from the fact that they are shiny. Therefore, gold and silver can't be considered ponzis. As long as the materials themselves serve some useful purpose, they will hold value.

In theory, we don't need anything besides speculation for cryptocurrencies to hold value. They can hold value if we all just "decide" that they hold value. But this is a collective mind game that may not stand the test of overwhelming universal bearishness or mass panic (which inevitably and periodically arise).

We have to keep searching. It is not enough to "just get a GUI" or identify a large potential market. Fundamentally, we really need a clear reason why XMR will continue to exist and hold value for the foreseeable future. Are we waiting for the entire global government fiat system to collapse, create a vacuum, and for cryptocurrencies to then fill the void? That seems very unlikely (as there will always be at least one government left standing that people trust) and it's something we have no control over. What's more likely is that a killer app propels cryptocurrency forward and people voluntarily switch over from inferior alternatives. What's more likely still is that cryptocurrencies sorta just languish for a while like battery technology. (The first true battery was made in the year 1800, but the first practical use of batteries (to power telegraphs and whatnot) didn't come around until after 1835).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_battery#Invention_of_the_battery

I will say that if the global political environment becomes such that major-league tax evasion is necessary for everyone (rich and poor) just to survive, and physical cash and gold coins are banned, and every visible form of economic activity becomes strangled by rentseekers, then cryptocurrency will become very attractive. But frankly, that world doesn't sound very fun whether your cryptocurrency or secret gold stash has become worth a lot or not.

/musing

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

[ArticMine]

...

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Fungibility rather than privacy is the killer application; however one cannot have fungibility without privacy so they go hand in hand.  I remain convinced that Bitcoin has a fatal flaw that has been exposed by the 1 MB blocksize limit debate, namely: How can a fee market develop in the absence of a block reward? Granted this flaw will not show up for a few decades but it one of the reasons why there is not a "simple" solution to the blocksize debate.

[generalizethis]

What if there were some totally unique service or thing that you could ONLY buy with cryptocurrencies conveniently? Something that could not be duplicated. That would be enough to remove the ponzi "smell" from cryptocurrencies.

Gold and silver have unique molecular makeups. There are some things that gold or silver can do that other things simply can't do. That is separate from the fact that there's a limited amount of these metals in the Earth's crust and separate from the fact that they are shiny. Therefore, gold and silver can't be considered ponzis. As long as the materials themselves serve some useful purpose, they will hold value.

In theory, we don't need anything besides speculation for cryptocurrencies to hold value. They can hold value if we all just "decide" that they hold value. But this is a collective mind game that may not stand the test of overwhelming universal bearishness or mass panic (which inevitably and periodically arise).

We have to keep searching. It is not enough to "just get a GUI" or identify a large potential market. Fundamentally, we really need a clear reason why XMR will continue to exist and hold value for the foreseeable future. Are we waiting for the entire global government fiat system to collapse, create a vacuum, and for cryptocurrencies to then fill the void? That seems very unlikely (as there will always be at least one government left standing that people trust) and it's something we have no control over. What's more likely is that a killer app propels cryptocurrency forward and people voluntarily switch over from inferior alternatives. What's more likely still is that cryptocurrencies sorta just languish for a while like battery technology. (The first true battery was made in the year 1800, but the first practical use of batteries (to power telegraphs and whatnot) didn't come around until after 1835).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_battery#Invention_of_the_battery

I will say that if the global political environment becomes such that major-league tax evasion is necessary for everyone (rich and poor) just to survive, and physical cash and gold coins are banned, and every visible form of economic activity becomes strangled by rentseekers, then cryptocurrency will become very attractive. But frankly, that world doesn't sound very fun whether your cryptocurrency or secret gold stash has become worth a lot or not.

/musing

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

[owm123]

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company.

In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The  "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator".

Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control.

[generalizethis]

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company.

In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The  "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator".

Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control.

So a government is going to create a non-fungible money and thinks companies and other governments are going to want transact in this money and have all their transactions public for all time? You just created a domestic money that can't possibly win international favor.

[owm123]

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company.

In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The  "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator".

Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control.

So government is going to create a non-fungible money and thinks companies and other governments are going to want transact in this money and have all their transactions public for all time? They still need a digital cash in your scenario.

I think it will not be private, that's the point. I mean private in a sense between you and the government.  For Russia bitcoin is even too private, not even mentioning monero.

I dont know exactly how they plan to make BitRubble work, but its interesting precedence for government controlled cryptocurrency. Other countries may follow.

[generalizethis]

The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.

Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.

Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time?

Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company.

In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The  "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator".

Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control.

So government is going to create a non-fungible money and thinks companies and other governments are going to want transact in this money and have all their transactions public for all time? They still need a digital cash in your scenario.

I think it will not be private, that's the point. I mean private in a sense between you and the government.  For Russia bitcoin is even too private, not even mentioning monero.

I dont know exactly how they plan to make BitRubble work, but its interesting precedence for government controlled cryptocurrency. Other countries may follow.

And they'll all have a centralized non-fungible money that keeps public records for all time. IE. a domestic currency that must be foisted on the domestic populace in order to work. An international currency must have anonymous outlets if it is to remain fungible, desired and work as a cash. You say it will be outlawed. How? is my first question. But my bigger question is why? If i want to fund the enemy of my enemy without garnering international attention, I'm going to need a digital cash in order to avoid in person hook-ups that would be as damning as having it on a public blockchain. Just imagine how the Iran Contra fiasco could have been avoided if Reagan and North had used Monero. Nevermind that a public money can never be as fungible as private money unless no one ever did anything bad with it. Good luck with that non-world.

[smoothie]

...
Just for the sake of accuracy, Dash Masternodes are not a ponzi ...

Correct, Instamine/hardfork coin grab is the term I use.

... There should be something that's soaking up coins. Something besides speculation.

This is still the accumulation and development cycle, down the road (years) there can be no instamine accusations with this distribution model. Anyone can buy in right now and be on a level playing field. I expect another year before XMR is ready for prime time at current rate. And that is with ongoing non stop development that is happening as we speak. There is so much work going on under the hood right now that anyone not accumulating this emission as it's dumped will be crying like everyone that missed BTC.

I agree with you here.

It appears XMR is in early 2010 stage of where bitcoin was. But it may be even earlier as there is no GUI and in its place is a GIGANTIC engine put into a tiny automobile.

Accumulation phase is now AKA early adopters.

With Bitcoin developers having mentioned possible development (yeah right lol) of "Confidential Transactions" they see that privacy AND moreso fungibility of bitcoin is a huge issue moving forward.

[owm123]

With Bitcoin developers having mentioned possible development (yeah right lol) of "Confidential Transactions" they see that privacy AND moreso fungibility of bitcoin is a huge issue moving forward.

Yes, i think they slowly start to realize that lack of privacy and fungibility is a problem.

But what would happen with monero, if bitcoin actually managed to introduced  these features. If this would happen, that there would be no point in monero? Could monero survive, if bitcoin incorporated zerocash or whatever technique to ensure privacy and fungibility of transactions?