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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012649 times)
Paladin69
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August 22, 2013, 08:29:18 PM
 #6841

Sorry if this has been answered a hundred times, this thread is a wall of text.  Are our pre-orders from early June expected to arrive in September or October?
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August 22, 2013, 08:31:23 PM
 #6842


Not sure what the relevance of a part made by lineage?  Didn't KNC state the power supply used in from GE Critical Power?

If you will kindly draw your attention to the footer of each page of the datasheet.

Doh you got me.  I knew Lineage power was owned by GE, but I found a datasheet for the same part without any Lineage branding.  Not sure why GE has datasheets for the same thing on multiple sites but they made me look stupid.

Serious question.  It would seem by the description ("0.45Vdc to 2.0Vdc") that they went with the MDT040A0X instead of the MVT04A0X.  Any ideas why?  It doesn't really matter I am just curious.
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August 22, 2013, 08:35:05 PM
 #6843

Sorry if this has been answered a hundred times, this thread is a wall of text.  Are our pre-orders from early June expected to arrive in September or October?

Has not been answered officially.  There has been no reported delay but no more info on shipping timelines.
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August 22, 2013, 08:35:19 PM
 #6844

That went by quietly (with less comment than the ignore being yellow on members posts), them saying they're going to sell modules for us to upgrade ourselves?
That's exactly what I assumed they meant to happen when I saw the original design but it was never officially mentioned.
That's great news, especially if prices drop and you have room for some ..or even if a gen 2 module can be used if and when they exist.
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August 22, 2013, 08:37:28 PM
 #6845

I've spoken personally to a couple people now about their dealings with TerraHash as well and it's not favorable at all?  What is going to happen, people like Intel and Samsung coming in and crushing all the small time players?  I am just looking for my small piece of the pie here.

Just buy bitcoins then. Or buy from a company that has stock in hand already, like bitfury. If you want to take a risk and invest into a pre-order I would suggest going with KnC. Also make sure you check out http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

Is http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ the best calc to use at this point?  I see a bunch of them out there and this seems to be the only one that is either very accurate or is the least favorable.

It's very pessimistic, it takes into account the compunded exponential rise in hashrate, rather than a fixed rate over time, that's why it's become popular. It's not accurate though, nothing can be unless it can foresee the Bitcoin SP, and related price fluctuations.

Also it bases prices of kit bought in November and beyond on what details we have now. Miners won't be selling for those prices come Jan. They will have to be priced more competitively.

Crucially for KnC buyers is what happens between Sept and Jan and how quick we can plug in units configured to wallets, which is also out of out hands currently...

Bitcoinorama, I noticed you said "we" in your last line....I take it you are a buyer of at least one of these units then? I do recall you stating early on that you were interested in a possible PR type job with an ASIC company....but I don't recall you stating that you were also a buyer of a KNC UNIT.

Just checking is all....

If you'd check the thread from the beginning the entire purpose of me going there was to check they existed for my own purchase. Additionally I wanted to check out an engineering firm in a discipline I'm heavily interested in. At no point ever have I said I wanted a PR type job, although that's generally what people try to position me as. Largely as London has more advertising than engineering roles, and i'm well spoken. The rest is pure speculation from a forum. Though, I studied an engineering discipline from a highly regarded UK Engineering University, it would be interesting to actually use the degrees I entertained the debt for.

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August 22, 2013, 08:39:24 PM
 #6846

btw. I've rec'd apologies from Croppo, and he's earned my respect back. Trust profile restored & unignored.


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sbfree
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August 22, 2013, 08:44:02 PM
 #6847

I've spoken personally to a couple people now about their dealings with TerraHash as well and it's not favorable at all?  What is going to happen, people like Intel and Samsung coming in and crushing all the small time players?  I am just looking for my small piece of the pie here.

Just buy bitcoins then. Or buy from a company that has stock in hand already, like bitfury. If you want to take a risk and invest into a pre-order I would suggest going with KnC. Also make sure you check out http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

Is http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ the best calc to use at this point?  I see a bunch of them out there and this seems to be the only one that is either very accurate or is the least favorable.

It's very pessimistic, it takes into account the compunded exponential rise in hashrate, rather than a fixed rate over time, that's why it's become popular. It's not accurate though, nothing can be unless it can foresee the Bitcoin SP, and related price fluctuations.

Also it bases prices of kit bought in November and beyond on what details we have now. Miners won't be selling for those prices come Jan. They will have to be priced more competitively.

Crucially for KnC buyers is what happens between Sept and Jan and how quick we can plug in units configured to wallets, which is also out of out hands currently...

Bitcoinorama, I noticed you said "we" in your last line....I take it you are a buyer of at least one of these units then? I do recall you stating early on that you were interested in a possible PR type job with an ASIC company....but I don't recall you stating that you were also a buyer of a KNC UNIT.

Just checking is all....

If you'd check the thread from the beginning the entire purpose of me going there was to check they existed for my own purchase. Additionally I wanted to check out an engineering firm in a discipline I'm heavily interested in. At no point ever have I said I wanted a PR type job, although that's generally what people try to position me as. Largely as London has more advertising than engineering roles, and i'm well spoken. The rest is pure speculation from a forum. Though, I studied an engineering discipline from a highly regarded UK Engineering University, it would be interesting to actually use the degrees I entertained the debt for.


I hope I didn't rile you up bitcoinorama....I have actually read every single page in this thread and then some.....and I just don't ever recall you stating that you had purchased a unit, or rather ordered it because purchase would imply delivered/received.

Anyhow, I have ORDERED a Saturn from KNC....although it is not day 1 or day 2, it was ordered very shortly after, so maybe "day 3" for me,
HOW ABOUT YOU?
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August 22, 2013, 08:44:27 PM
 #6848

btw. I've rec'd apologies from Croppo, and he's earned my respect back. Trust profile restored & unignored.

I think he's slowly coming round to the fact the company exists and are making a real effort to provide a worthwhile product for all concerned.

Perhaps he means well, but he certainly entered the thread on the wrong foot.

In any case he seems amicable enough once he's on the right path, and anyone who is sincere in their apology is worthy of forgiveness as long as no damage has been done.

Bygones be bygones, life's too short, etc.

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Phoenix1969
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August 22, 2013, 08:48:53 PM
 #6849

http://www.lineagepower.com/oem/pdf/MDT040A0X.pdf

Max efficiency at 0.6V out w/ 12V input - 84%
Max efficiency at 1.2V out w/ 12V input - 90%
Max efficiency at 1.8V out w/ 12V input - 92%

And the whopper, 1.5ms typical rise in output current from 10% to 90%.  Not very responsive for such a small converter, esp for switching at 400khz.

And did you see that ripple voltage? !!!
Oh my gosh, between 8-20mVp-p at 1 volt!

It's too bad they couldn't use 2 of them at once.
It's too bad they don't have a SYNC function.
It's too bad the SYNC function couldn't be programmed to reduce ripple by interleaving.

If only there were such things.

Oh wait.....
They do have those functions.

Gee I wonder if the KnC guys noticed or it was just coinkydink

It's too bad the pdf you linked didn't include examples of how to deal with the known limitations.
Oh wait.....

All DC/DC converters have limitations.
The efficiency is not bad. It's 80+ and that's DC/DC at 1/12th supply V.

An engineer could design better given enough time and money.

But (there's always a 'but')

Not if you wanted off the shelf _and_ wanted some headroom within the $$$/time budget.
IMneverHO

25% of possible total supply voltage range for the device seems quite flexible to me.
They have V to spare if their thermal budget has any room left.

I almost forgot.
"And the whopper, 1.5ms typical rise in output current from 10% to 90%."

It's too bad they couldn't place caps around the ASIC to compensate.
Oh wait.....

Are you some kind of inductorologist with mad skillz?
I didn't notice your suggestion for a better choice.
Please include delivery time and cost savings if you do venture an opinion.

To me their DC/DC supply fits exactly their 'margin on top of margin' claim.
Thx for the link!

Time will tell Wink

Coincidentally, I am designing a 3 phase DC/DC power circuit that currently delivers 0.84V @80A w/ ~92% efficiency based around the LTC-3829, tunable @5mV increments, powered by a 12V ATX supply (+-10 nominal).  Each phases lower FET dissipates a maximum of 0.75W, which is the highest of any single component in the design.   I've got roughly 20 hours into the design.  Further, synching does not eliminate ripple.   In ideal situtations yes, however that's why any spice simulator worth using allows sweeps of tolerance ranges.  The reality is that the load is not uniform across the phases.  I'm not even going to address the rise time and caps comment as its obvious you have little experience with this type of circuitry.

The reason I mention the inefficiencies of their supply choice are that the poor choice of external PSU was due to "lower heat" then a week later post that they are dumping an extra 100W of heat into the chassis, which about what a good PSU would do (80% vs 90+% designs that are readily available).  All it takes is looking at any motherboard, gpu, or other high amperage, low volt device and making a few emails.

Ultrix, I'm sorry, but I just don't see your point here. What exactly are you trying to say (can it be summed up in a couple sentences?) Because it looks to me as if your not happy with the choice.
Do you have a better one?
Share it, and maybe on gen 2...
otherwise....?   dont get it
-edit-
But at the end there You DO like the choice.....ok   I totally missed that, sry
I totally thought you implied a poor choice, and got lost in the data before seeing the last comments
The sarcastic nature makes it hard to follow...
btw...
"1.5ms typical rise in output current from 10% to 90%."
seems spectacular to me...   You have a better example with a comparable module?


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Bitcoinorama
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August 22, 2013, 08:50:56 PM
 #6850

Quote from: sbfree link=topic=170332.msg2988803#msg2988803 date
I hope I didn't rile you up bitcoinorama....I have actually read every single page in this thread and then some.....and I just don't ever recall you stating that you had purchased a unit, or rather ordered it because purchase would imply delivered/received.

Anyhow, I have ORDERED a Saturn from KNC....although it is not day 1 or day 2, it was ordered very shortly after, so maybe "day 3" for me,
HOW ABOUT YOU?

No worries. I said before I was looking to purchase one or two units, I wasn't putting all my eggs in one basket. Sensible approach. I will consider more once the device is proven and we know how the network is behaving.

By now I expected all Avalons and bulk chips to be hashing. I'm still shocked and to be fair annoyed for those involved that they aren't. I also expected Bitfury to be onboard and in the wild by mid-August.

I never planned for BFL, neither am I holding my breath there. I'm also not expecting another 28nm entrant till at least December, but I maybe wrong.

I don't feel comfortable 'throwing money' at something with so many unknowns. I feel safe if KnC deliver on time we will be in profit before any real completion surfaces, but then I won't be shocked by any surprises after the past 6 months.

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August 22, 2013, 09:04:56 PM
 #6851

Quote from: sbfree link=topic=170332.msg2988803#msg2988803 date
I hope I didn't rile you up bitcoinorama....I have actually read every single page in this thread and then some.....and I just don't ever recall you stating that you had purchased a unit, or rather ordered it because purchase would imply delivered/received.

Anyhow, I have ORDERED a Saturn from KNC....although it is not day 1 or day 2, it was ordered very shortly after, so maybe "day 3" for me,
HOW ABOUT YOU?

No worries. I said before I was looking to purchase one or two units, I wasn't putting all my eggs in one basket. Sensible approach. I will consider more once the device is proven and we know how the network is behaving.

By now I expected all Avalons and bulk chips to be hashing. I'm still shocked and to be fair annoyed for those involved that they aren't. I also expected Bitfury to be onboard and in the wild by mid-August.

I never planned for BFL, neither am I holding my breath there. I'm also not expecting another 28nm entrant till at least December, but I maybe wrong.

I don't feel comfortable 'throwing money' at something with so many unknowns. I feel safe if KnC deliver on time we will be in profit before any real completion surfaces, but then I won't be shocked by any surprises after the past 6 months.

what is the expected ship date for the July orders? To the best of your knowledge. Is it September or October.
Thanks for your time,
Brian


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August 22, 2013, 09:06:20 PM
 #6852

Quote from: sbfree link=topic=170332.msg2988803#msg2988803 date
I hope I didn't rile you up bitcoinorama....I have actually read every single page in this thread and then some.....and I just don't ever recall you stating that you had purchased a unit, or rather ordered it because purchase would imply delivered/received.

Anyhow, I have ORDERED a Saturn from KNC....although it is not day 1 or day 2, it was ordered very shortly after, so maybe "day 3" for me,
HOW ABOUT YOU?

No worries. I said before I was looking to purchase one or two units, I wasn't putting all my eggs in one basket. Sensible approach. I will consider more once the device is proven and we know how the network is behaving.

By now I expected all Avalons and bulk chips to be hashing. I'm still shocked and to be fair annoyed for those involved that they aren't. I also expected Bitfury to be onboard and in the wild by mid-August.

I never planned for BFL, neither am I holding my breath there. I'm also not expecting another 28nm entrant till at least December, but I maybe wrong.

I don't feel comfortable 'throwing money' at something with so many unknowns. I feel safe if KnC deliver on time we will be in profit before any real completion surfaces, but then I won't be shocked by any surprises after the past 6 months.

what is the expected ship date for the July orders? To the best of your knowledge. Is it September or October.
Thanks for your time,
Brian

Here is what has been stated in previous time lines, and this is what they say they are still on track with:

Day 1 & Day 2 orders are shipping in September.

Everything else is shipping in October.
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August 22, 2013, 09:22:13 PM
 #6853

I've spoken personally to a couple people now about their dealings with TerraHash as well and it's not favorable at all?  What is going to happen, people like Intel and Samsung coming in and crushing all the small time players?  I am just looking for my small piece of the pie here.

Just buy bitcoins then. Or buy from a company that has stock in hand already, like bitfury. If you want to take a risk and invest into a pre-order I would suggest going with KnC. Also make sure you check out http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

Is http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ the best calc to use at this point?  I see a bunch of them out there and this seems to be the only one that is either very accurate or is the least favorable.

It's very pessimistic, it takes into account the compunded exponential rise in hashrate, rather than a fixed rate over time, that's why it's become popular. It's not accurate though, nothing can be unless it can foresee the Bitcoin SP, and related price fluctuations.

Also it bases prices of kit bought in November and beyond on what details we have now. Miners won't be selling for those prices come Jan. They will have to be priced more competitively.

Crucially for KnC buyers is what happens between Sept and Jan and how quick we can plug in units configured to wallets, which is also out of out hands currently...

Bitcoinorama, I noticed you said "we" in your last line....I take it you are a buyer of at least one of these units then? I do recall you stating early on that you were interested in a possible PR type job with an ASIC company....but I don't recall you stating that you were also a buyer of a KNC UNIT.

Just checking is all....

MANY pages ago, he said he bought one unit I believe...
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August 22, 2013, 09:29:27 PM
 #6854


Ultrix, I'm sorry, but I just don't see your point here. What exactly are you trying to say (can it be summed up in a couple sentences?) Because it looks to me as if your not happy with the choice.
Do you have a better one?
Share it, and maybe on gen 2...
otherwise....?   dont get it
-edit-
But at the end there You DO like the choice.....ok   I totally missed that, sry
I totally thought you implied a poor choice, and got lost in the data before seeing the last comments
The sarcastic nature makes it hard to follow...
btw...
"1.5ms typical rise in output current from 10% to 90%."
seems spectacular to me...   You have a better example with a comparable module? (other than adding caps)

To put it into perspective, I'm getting ~300us (0.3ms) rise times.   The comments weren't sarcastic.  Their choice was poor, its not a supply you'd want to chose for such an application due to efficiency.  If you look at similar supplies on motherboards and GPUs 85% is typically the lowest you'll see.  Usually numbers are in the low 90's.   If you're relying on caps to correct this you're really going to have to watch over current in the h-bridges as this causes over corrections by the switching IC.  This is due to two part, the temporary additional load needs to be provided and the switch attempts to stabilize this.  All inductors have different inductance at different power loads typically presented as a curve of impedance @ amps @ a specific voltage.  Towards the right hand side of each of these curves is a point where the inductance drastically decreases.  This leads to the switching IC performing a series of over corrections.

I mentioned my design to indicate level of effort put into a more appropriate design and associated performance metrics.  Its intended for a 32 chip Bitfury board to go in a 12 board chassis.  The goal is a 4U @1TH/s with < 1kw wall consumption.  I've only got a handful of chips currently and still waiting on lab time to properly characterize them before finalizing design and doing a prototype run.  Not planning on selling it, might not even fully build it after testing the design, just something to do in spare time.
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August 22, 2013, 09:31:38 PM
 #6855

Quote from: sbfree link=topic=170332.msg2988803#msg2988803 date
I hope I didn't rile you up bitcoinorama....I have actually read every single page in this thread and then some.....and I just don't ever recall you stating that you had purchased a unit, or rather ordered it because purchase would imply delivered/received.

Anyhow, I have ORDERED a Saturn from KNC....although it is not day 1 or day 2, it was ordered very shortly after, so maybe "day 3" for me,
HOW ABOUT YOU?

No worries. I said before I was looking to purchase one or two units, I wasn't putting all my eggs in one basket. Sensible approach. I will consider more once the device is proven and we know how the network is behaving.

By now I expected all Avalons and bulk chips to be hashing. I'm still shocked and to be fair annoyed for those involved that they aren't. I also expected Bitfury to be onboard and in the wild by mid-August.

I never planned for BFL, neither am I holding my breath there. I'm also not expecting another 28nm entrant till at least December, but I maybe wrong.

I don't feel comfortable 'throwing money' at something with so many unknowns. I feel safe if KnC deliver on time we will be in profit before any real completion surfaces, but then I won't be shocked by any surprises after the past 6 months.

what is the expected ship date for the July orders? To the best of your knowledge. Is it September or October.
Thanks for your time,
Brian

Here is what has been stated in previous time lines, and this is what they say they are still on track with:

Day 1 & Day 2 orders are shipping in September.

Everything else is shipping in October.

Bitcoinorama can you confirm that?


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Bitrated user: Vagnavs.
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August 22, 2013, 09:43:59 PM
 #6856

To put it into perspective, I'm getting ~300us (0.3ms) rise times.
Can you explain why would rise time (or any other dynamic load parameter) matter for a miner power supply?

This isn't a CPU or anything similar that will have to cope with the changes of the load.

The bitminer works 100% load all the time. I wanted to write "full throttle", but it is more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_emergency_power throttle setting.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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August 22, 2013, 09:48:23 PM
 #6857

2112, what can you tell us about KNC's latest post/picture of the PCB....your opinion is highly regarded, thanks.
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August 22, 2013, 09:50:57 PM
 #6858

2112, what can you tell us about KNC's latest post/picture of the PCB....your opinion is highly regarded, thanks.

I do agree. I was waiting for a 2112's post on the PCM since they published news-30 Tongue

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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August 22, 2013, 09:53:19 PM
 #6859

Quote from: sbfree link=topic=170332.msg2988803#msg2988803 date
I hope I didn't rile you up bitcoinorama....I have actually read every single page in this thread and then some.....and I just don't ever recall you stating that you had purchased a unit, or rather ordered it because purchase would imply delivered/received.

Anyhow, I have ORDERED a Saturn from KNC....although it is not day 1 or day 2, it was ordered very shortly after, so maybe "day 3" for me,
HOW ABOUT YOU?

No worries. I said before I was looking to purchase one or two units, I wasn't putting all my eggs in one basket. Sensible approach. I will consider more once the device is proven and we know how the network is behaving.

By now I expected all Avalons and bulk chips to be hashing. I'm still shocked and to be fair annoyed for those involved that they aren't. I also expected Bitfury to be onboard and in the wild by mid-August.

I never planned for BFL, neither am I holding my breath there. I'm also not expecting another 28nm entrant till at least December, but I maybe wrong.

I don't feel comfortable 'throwing money' at something with so many unknowns. I feel safe if KnC deliver on time we will be in profit before any real completion surfaces, but then I won't be shocked by any surprises after the past 6 months.

what is the expected ship date for the July orders? To the best of your knowledge. Is it September or October.
Thanks for your time,
Brian

Here is what has been stated in previous time lines, and this is what they say they are still on track with:

Day 1 & Day 2 orders are shipping in September.

Everything else is shipping in October.

Bitcoinorama can you confirm that?

Mate, I'm in no position to confirm anything, other than what Greenbtc has mentioned above is accurate as far as I know. They said the first two days would be Sept, that they can ramp up and scale production as needed.

From their point of view the sooner they get rid of pre-orders the sooner they get to magically say 'units in stock', which will breath a sigh of relief from everyone and an end to the pre-order BS. I totally understand the need for pre-orders, but there's been way too much abuse from scammers and gamblers purposely avoiding accountability.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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August 22, 2013, 09:56:55 PM
 #6860

To put it into perspective, I'm getting ~300us (0.3ms) rise times.
Can you explain why would rise time (or any other dynamic load parameter) matter for a miner power supply?

This isn't a CPU or anything similar that will have to cope with the changes of the load.

The bitminer works 100% load all the time. I wanted to write "full throttle", but it is more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_emergency_power throttle setting.

Exactly what you said is the answer.  IC's are not typically designed to handle under current very well and typically things like enable signaling is left out of the design on mining hardware for the reason you indicated, they are always running.  The slow rise times, as I'm inferring that you know from your previous knowledgeable posts, have adverse effects, especially on larger dies.  I don't have any extra cards here, but one could test this by pulling the GPU BGA, attaching a sequence of increasingly sized load resistor, and measuring rise times.   Following this, one could add rise delays to another card, which should be easy given the required pour patterns of most h-bridges, and measure GPU errors at different delays (going from idle to load is analogous to the problem we're discussing).
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