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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007300 times)
timmmers
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August 19, 2013, 11:26:02 AM
 #6361

Roi should only be considered in terms of btc. If you bought a Jupititer when bitcoins were $70, you will most likely never make your hundred bitcojns back. What does it matter if bitcoins go to $1000? You would have had $70,000 if you hadn't bought the Jupiter, butif it only mines 50 btc then you have lost.
No. Only the price of Bitcoins at the time you buy the miner matters. Future changes in the price of Bitcoins more or less cancels out. The cost, in Bitcoins, of a particular piece of mining hardware is dependent on the price of Bitcoins. But after that, the Bitcoins mined can be compared to the cost of the miner in Bitcoins without regard for the future price of Bitcoins.

If I'm considering buying a piece of mining hardware that will cost me 50 Bitcoins today and can be expected to mine 70 Bitcoins over the next year, then it's probably a pretty good deal. The higher the price of Bitcoins, in fact, the better off I am with the miner because the lower, proportionately to the reward, the cost of electricity.

It's always seemed odd to me that many calculators don't show estimated BTC mined.
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August 19, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
 #6362

Anyone know what case fan they are using? Seems to be bequiet logo.

I count 9 blades, so my guess is 140mm Silent Wings?

http://i.imgur.com/SCyeqdb.png
Yes, it's looks like BeQuiet Silent Wings 140mm, and Arctic Cooling Freezer i30/A30.
But isn't supposed to be there water cooling? And where is space for PSU ?
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August 19, 2013, 11:53:00 AM
 #6363

But isn't supposed to be there water cooling? And where is space for PSU ?

You haven't been reading much have you? PSU is external and water-cool idea was thrown out as datacenters don't want to deal with it.
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August 19, 2013, 11:53:17 AM
 #6364

Anyone know what case fan they are using? Seems to be bequiet logo.

I count 9 blades, so my guess is 140mm Silent Wings?

http://i.imgur.com/SCyeqdb.png
Yes, it's looks like BeQuiet Silent Wings 140mm, and Arctic Cooling Freezer i30/A30.
But isn't supposed to be there water cooling? And where is space for PSU ?

KNC doesn't use water cooling* and they decided to make the case too narrow to fit a PSU inside. I guess making the case 3" wider would have put it over budget.


*Well not stock although if it can be cooled by a standard air-cooled CPU heatsink then swapping it out for water cooling should be pretty trivial. 
NoDisco
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August 19, 2013, 11:59:35 AM
 #6365

KNC doesn't use water cooling* and they decided to make the case too narrow to fit a PSU inside. I guess making the case 3" wider would have put it over budget.

*Well not stock although if it can be cooled by a standard air-cooled CPU heatsink then swapping it out for water cooling should be pretty trivial. 
Should be trivial to swop out. But you'd think these guys, for the price they are charging, would have put something much better than a $30 consumer - which Arctic describe as an "enthusiast-grade CPU cooler" - in this set-up. They are trying to sell this as a business to business piece of industrial machinery, but filling it with mid range consumer parts  Angry
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August 19, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
 #6366

Don't like non water cooling or external PSU? Don't pre-order or refund.
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August 19, 2013, 12:11:25 PM
 #6367

They are trying to sell this as a business to business piece of industrial machinery, but filling it with mid range consumer parts  Angry

AHHH you are right sir, part of the explanation(and huge disappointment) was, that they are here for professionals, not for simple consumers. after couple of months we have got lowcost SOHO coolers and PSU OUTSIDE MINER

cool

No they don't include any taxes, We are not aiming our site at consumers at all. We are not advertising our prices in any consumer press etc.

We are selling professional devices to professional miners.
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August 19, 2013, 12:18:25 PM
 #6368

Please explain to me what a professional device or miner is?

Because to me, a professional device would be something you need to do extra stuff on before it can mine (buy a PSU, config settings, connect cables). So KNC miner would be a professional device as it is not "simply plug in and mine".

By the way, professional device doesn't mean that it has a professional design. Show me where they say this? They even said before that design is not important to them like BFL.
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August 19, 2013, 12:24:31 PM
 #6369

Please explain to me what a professional device or miner is?

Because to me, a professional device would be something you need to do extra stuff on before it can mine (buy a PSU, config settings, connect cables). So KNC miner would be a professional device as it is not "simply plug in and mine".

By the way, professional device doesn't mean that it has a professional design. Show me where they say this? They even said before that design is not important to them like BFL.
I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.
jimmy3dita
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August 19, 2013, 12:27:52 PM
 #6370

I'm asking myself why people is bitching for a design of something that just few months later will be thrown away, worthless any value.

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Bitcoinorama
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August 19, 2013, 12:28:16 PM
 #6371

Please explain to me what a professional device or miner is?

Because to me, a professional device would be something you need to do extra stuff on before it can mine (buy a PSU, config settings, connect cables). So KNC miner would be a professional device as it is not "simply plug in and mine".

By the way, professional device doesn't mean that it has a professional design. Show me where they say this? They even said before that design is not important to them like BFL.
I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.

All they've ever promised is to meet a shipping date, remain compeitive and use margins upon margins and components that are overkill for the purpose so the damn thing works, ships on time, and they don't get trumped before Sept when planning way back in April/May (or before).

As Jimmy3dita has just pointed out all these devices being produced, or planning to be produced have a very finite life cycle. It's amusing because all these supposed 'more efficient' 28nm chips that are planned for a later a release may be more efficient electricity cost wise until made redundant (with an equally short life cycle), but if they aren't produced in or around the same time as KnC deliver, they definitely will not be more efficient mining a similar cumulative volume of Bitcoins, achieving ROI, or any subsequent profit...

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Xialla
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August 19, 2013, 12:33:22 PM
 #6372

I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.

yes, same here. top components, possible to place in rack (rackmount kit should be included/possible as accessories), standard data center size size (1U, 2U...) possible to have network/power redundancy. it is my expectation for HW, which cost me 8600$. what we know now from pics looks more like another avalon clone.
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August 19, 2013, 12:35:22 PM
 #6373

"Professional" just means you use it to make money.  As part of your job. It doesn't matter what it looks like so long as it works.

If you don't like the heatsinks you can just get different ones.

DeathAndTaxes
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August 19, 2013, 12:38:06 PM
 #6374

They didn't include a PSU to avoid Customs/shipping issues more than likely.

Who said include a PSU?  Just make the case large enough to fit a PSU (preferably with ATX PSU mounting bracket/plate).  Then ship without a PSU and let the buyer supply their own.  I mean come on that is a silly rebuttal.  Right?  We are talking a case made of the exact same material (probably by the same company) that just happens to be 3" wider and can mount a user supplied PSU.  Better make it rackmount chassis dimensions so it can be properly mounted in a rack without the need for shelves.   Are you really going to argue it would be worse to do that? 

Or as an option supply a barebones kit (just ASICs and control board, user supplies everything else for $200 less and reduced shipping).  I probably am a weirdo but this option would be awesome.  Let the user supply "off the shelf" what can be supplied off the shelf.  Brings some of the hobbyist aspect back.  I would imagine there would be a lot of threads on best parts, designs, etc and includng additions to the always popular "photos of your mining rig" thread. Smiley

Anti-flame disclaimer:  I am not saying KNC sucks, this means they don't know what they are doing, don't buy it, or it can't work with an external PSU.  It just seems like an oversight, and one which has a rather simple solution.

on edit: modified for clarity and brevity
Bitcoinorama
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August 19, 2013, 12:38:17 PM
 #6375

I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.

yes, same here. top components, possible to place in rack (rackmount kit should be included/possible as accessories), standard data center size size (1U, 2U...) possible to have network/power redundancy. it is my expectation for HW, which cost me 8600$. what we know now from pics looks more like another avalon clone.

What did you expect? You're in line early for a prototype. The game plan has always been a no fuss hashing monster hopefully delivered in time to reward you with a significantly better return than anything else.

These guys are engineering a product to work, first time, in a development timeframe that will be a world record for a structured ASIC. Guess what, now everyone else is trying to copy their idea, and improve on it, but deliver later.

Fancy refinement is for gen 2 and beyond, once you've proved your damn method is beyond mere madness.

You should know what you've agreed to; prototype mk. #1. No frills, but; "does exactly what it says on the tin".


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NoDisco
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August 19, 2013, 12:42:39 PM
 #6376

Please explain to me what a professional device or miner is?

Because to me, a professional device would be something you need to do extra stuff on before it can mine (buy a PSU, config settings, connect cables). So KNC miner would be a professional device as it is not "simply plug in and mine".

By the way, professional device doesn't mean that it has a professional design. Show me where they say this? They even said before that design is not important to them like BFL.
I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.

All they've ever promised is to meet a shipping date, remain compeitive and use margins upon margins and components that are overkill for the purpose so the damn thing works, ships on time, and they don't get trumped before Sept when planning way back in April/May (or before).
We all know there are no such thing as professional bitcoin miners. We all know that most are "hobbyists". Another name would be "consumers". We all know there are no limited companies who's sole function is bitcoin mining. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Seeing as no country has decided how to categories or tax it, there couldn't be.

We know that knc claiming they only sell to business to business is to sidestep consumer laws - everything you talk about - section 75 etc.

I expect a consumer device to use mid level "enthusiast-grade" consumer components. I expect better from a so-called professional device. They have promised a professional device.
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August 19, 2013, 12:44:21 PM
 #6377

What did you expect? You're in line early for a prototype.

We are selling professional devices

meeh, I think that here is difference between "professional device" and "prototype".) otherwise, of course that the most important is, if they will deliver what they promise in September. Once they fulfill this, I don't care about brand and type of cooling.
Bitcoinorama
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August 19, 2013, 12:44:26 PM
 #6378

Please explain to me what a professional device or miner is?

Because to me, a professional device would be something you need to do extra stuff on before it can mine (buy a PSU, config settings, connect cables). So KNC miner would be a professional device as it is not "simply plug in and mine".

By the way, professional device doesn't mean that it has a professional design. Show me where they say this? They even said before that design is not important to them like BFL.
I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.

All they've ever promised is to meet a shipping date, remain compeitive and use margins upon margins and components that are overkill for the purpose so the damn thing works, ships on time, and they don't get trumped before Sept when planning way back in April/May (or before).
We all know there are no such thing as professional bitcoin miners. We all know that most are "hobbyists". Another name would be "consumers". We all know there are no limited companies who's sole function is bitcoin mining. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Seeing as no country has decided how to categories or tax it, there couldn't be.

We know that knc claiming they only sell to business to business is to sidestep consumer laws - everything you talk about - section 75 etc.

I expect a consumer device to use mid level "enthusiast-grade" consumer components. I expect better from a so-called professsional device. They have promised a professsional device.

Sorry, I believe professional means it's aimed for data-centres, which is where Bitcoin mining, to be fair, is going.

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Bitcoinorama
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August 19, 2013, 12:46:02 PM
 #6379

Please explain to me what a professional device or miner is?

Because to me, a professional device would be something you need to do extra stuff on before it can mine (buy a PSU, config settings, connect cables). So KNC miner would be a professional device as it is not "simply plug in and mine".

By the way, professional device doesn't mean that it has a professional design. Show me where they say this? They even said before that design is not important to them like BFL.
I would expect a professional device to use the highest grade components available, that's what I would expect.

All they've ever promised is to meet a shipping date, remain compeitive and use margins upon margins and components that are overkill for the purpose so the damn thing works, ships on time, and they don't get trumped before Sept when planning way back in April/May (or before).
We all know there are no such thing as professional bitcoin miners. We all know that most are "hobbyists". Another name would be "consumers". We all know there are no limited companies who's sole function is bitcoin mining. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Seeing as no country has decided how to categories or tax it, there couldn't be.

We know that knc claiming they only sell to business to business is to sidestep consumer laws - everything you talk about - section 75 etc.

I expect a consumer device to use mid level "enthusiast-grade" consumer components. I expect better from a so-called professional device. They have promised a professional device.

BS, no they're not, how does it sidestep consumer laws?!

Unless they have written explicit exemption clauses in their terms and conditions, they remain bound by consumer protection;


Business to business sales, are consumer rights applicable?!

In short, yes, unless the company you are dealing with has specifically underwritten terms in their Terms and Conditions negating aspects of your consumer rights. This is known as an exclusion clause, and is yet another reason why Terms and Conditions should always be read and thoroughly discussed in your respective thread.

How do you know if the contract (business to business) takes away your statutory rights?

If the person who sold you the goods or services has taken away your statutory rights, there should be something in your contract about this. For example, it might say  the seller isn't responsible for goods that are unsatisfactory, don't match their description or aren't fit for purpose. Or it might say that the seller isn't responsible for any loss you've suffered because of their lack of care or skill. This type of content in a contract is called an exclusion clause.



http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm


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NoDisco
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August 19, 2013, 12:46:25 PM
 #6380

We all know there are no such thing as professional bitcoin miners. We all know that most are "hobbyists". Another name would be "consumers". We all know there are no limited companies who's sole function is bitcoin mining. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Seeing as no country has decided how to categories or tax it, there couldn't be.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/germany-recognizes-bitcoin-as-a-private-money-subject-to-capital-gains-tax/
The German's are always on the ball  Grin

EDIT: Seeing as MANY countries have not decided how to categories or tax it, there couldn't be.

Happy now?
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