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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012422 times)
greenbtc
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August 19, 2013, 05:38:02 PM
 #6461

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam


Thanks for your honesty Sam!
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August 19, 2013, 05:39:49 PM
 #6462

Again I will ask. What is "high end components"?

I would imagine he means datacenter grade, just take a look at the chassis for an $8K server.  Lets start with the easy stuff.  First they all have internal power supplies and are 19" wide so they will fit in a datacenter rack without the need for shelves.  

Normally CPUs and GPUs are just passive (fanless) heatsinks which use the case air flow to cool them.  The "case" fans provide the forced air across all components using multiple high CFM (noisy) fans.  Nobody uses "gamer brand" gear.* Air flow is an optimal front to back design (cold aisle to hot aisle).  Cooling is forced flow across the entire width of the chassis (multiple fans in a "line") for simplicity and reliability. On higher end servers cooling is redundant, two fans stacked together to prevent overheat in a fan failure.  Redundant power supplies are also common for the same reason.

I understand time is critical but what happens when your fan or PSU dies in the datacenter?  Ask anyone with colocated servers, "remote hands" time is expensive and so is downtime.  There is a reason why $8K servers are built this way and lets face it a $8K mining rig is pretty much an expensive mission critical server.  

Note I am not saying KNC should make "professional grade" rigs at this time, it is more a thought exercise. Come on people you should be enthusiasts.  Don't you ever just brainstorm about how things can be done better?  I mean Satoshi did and that is why we have Bitcoin.  Still it shouldn't be taken as a bash on KNC, it has taken the server industry a couple decades to come up with optimal configurations.  It just is to show what people in the IT hardware world would consider "professional grade" today.  To their credit KNC has already designed a better cooling system them BFL.  The mere fact that their heatsinks and fans all face the same direction is a significant improvement.  Everytime I look at a photo of a BFL minirig I just cringe.  The IT geek in me wants to rip out all those stupid fans and do it right. Smiley




This goes beyond KNC but most "consumer" branded cooling gear is just garbage for gamers to waste money on.  The CFM ratings tend to be inflated and they are often more expensive then "professional grade" equipment.  Delta and the like is the real deal.  Boring, black, ugly, and very effective.
I'm quoting this because this is a definition of waste and overkill in a mining operation.

Couple of years ago I read the report from people who did genetic programming experiments on a large scale. Genetic programming is somewhat like CPU mining: 100% CPU use, 0 disk use, very little RAM, very little network.

Firstly, for the $8k budget one could get approximately 100 off-lease but working office desktop computers. The important part instead of expensive 19" racks you would use the much cheaper industrial warehouse shelving.

No reliable components are required in any of the particular unit. One can swap the failed parts after failure because there isn't any need to save any data or redo the partial computations.

The major areas for savings are:

1) use interruptible industrial electric power instead of the guaranted power. The cost of power where the utility can ask you to turn off your equipment when they need it more than offset the losses caused by such interruptions.

2) instead of expensive datacenter real estate use the opportunistic short term leases, e.g. the cafeteria/food court areas in underutilized office buildings. You can agree to move your farm within one week notice without much expense.

3) almost no capital expenses for the UPS. You need one or two UPSes for the private pool server that you are running and some SNMP monitoring concentrator that keeps you informed about the status of your hardware.

4) you completely don't need the advanced security of the data center. Nobody's going to sneak in and copy your hashes. The only real danger is that somebody physically steals the mining hardware. Such a security level is much cheaper, more akin to the security at the construction site.

5) natural convective cooling instead of the forced air conditioning. On the rare occasion that it is really hot outside just underclocl/undervolt your farm.

If the bitcoin mining is going to become a low-margin game then the first ones to loose money and go bankrupt will be the ones who put their mining hardware into the conventional data centers.

The answer is a resurgence of late 80's arcade halls stealthily coin mining away. Get people to pay for your electricity and hash for free!! Cool

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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August 19, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
 #6463

Jump in trolls, jump in

~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~Play Boardgames for Bitcoins!!~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~ Something I say help? Donate BTC! 1KN1K1xStzsgfYxdArSX4PEjFfcLEuYhid
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August 19, 2013, 05:41:47 PM
 #6464

The external PSU is weird though.

It is. Any reason they cant make the case a bit bigger  Huh
Why would they? So anal peeps could worry about stuffing an ATX inside it, when the whole thing is getting trashed within a year?


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August 19, 2013, 05:43:37 PM
 #6465

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam


                   

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August 19, 2013, 05:44:40 PM
 #6466

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam


I really like this no waste attitude.  This is why I preordered from you guys.  Thanks Sam.
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August 19, 2013, 05:50:05 PM
 #6467

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam

Sam, can you also clarify two other points?

1. Cyper said he rang you today with regards components (EDIT: fans) used in the miner and you said he could swop them out for any other parts he wished to use. Surely this invalidates your guarantee? If it doesn't, please clarify. Are there any situations where it wouldn't? It leaves people who are not hosted by knc at a bit of a disadvantage.
2. Have you any details on repairs? For example, how long it will take you to accept a faulty miner for return? Do you have staff working at the weekend that can authorise returns? Can you provide any figures, even ballpark, on how long you estimate repairs could take - end to end - from return accepted to repaired miner dispatch back to customer?

Many thanks
ND
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August 19, 2013, 05:53:24 PM
 #6468

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam


You Sir are correct. Deadline, Deadline, DEADLINE!!!!!! Let's make sure you meet, and hopefully beat, the delivery deadline of a quality product that works!!!

Waiting anxiously for my Saturn. Smiley

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August 19, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
 #6469


Sam, can you also clarify two other points?

1. Cyper said he rang you today with regards components (heatsinks etc) used in the miner and you said he could swop them out for any other parts he wished to use. Surely this invalidates your guarantee? If it doesn't, please clarify. Are there any situations where it wouldn't? It leaves people who are not hosted by knc at a bit of a disadvantage.


I have never said that. Go check my post again.
Don't put words in my mouth please, instead try to learn how to read and remember simple bits of information.

This is the reason I don't share information that I am given when I call KNC - people like to twist it around and "A lie told often enough becomes the truth"

If this post helped you and you feel generous you know what to do: 1P9tXFy9bVgzrfPGeV7F8np26ZtFdCCWvz
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August 19, 2013, 05:54:54 PM
 #6470


Now naysayers go take a nap. KNC is indeed a Top-Shelf company.


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NoDisco
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August 19, 2013, 05:56:04 PM
 #6471


Sam, can you also clarify two other points?

1. Cyper said he rang you today with regards components (heatsinks etc) used in the miner and you said he could swop them out for any other parts he wished to use. Surely this invalidates your guarantee? If it doesn't, please clarify. Are there any situations where it wouldn't? It leaves people who are not hosted by knc at a bit of a disadvantage.


I have never said that. Go check my post again.
Don't put words in my mouth please, instead try to learn how to read and remember simple bits of information.

Just got off the phone with Sam - it is a pleasure to talk to him and gives answers to all questions, so if you have any questions I suggest you call him Smiley
But he said there is absolutely no problem to change the fans if you want less noise or higher performance.
You said fan, not heatsink. Sorry. Working from memory. The point about guarantee is the same.
ASIC-K
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August 19, 2013, 05:57:12 PM
 #6472


Sam, can you also clarify two other points?

1. Cyper said he rang you today with regards components (heatsinks etc) used in the miner and you said he could swop them out for any other parts he wished to use. Surely this invalidates your guarantee? If it doesn't, please clarify. Are there any situations where it wouldn't? It leaves people who are not hosted by knc at a bit of a disadvantage.


I have never said that. Go check my post again.
Don't put words in my mouth please, instead try to learn how to read and remember simple bits of information.

Just got off the phone with Sam - it is a pleasure to talk to him and gives answers to all questions, so if you have any questions I suggest you call him Smiley
But he said there is absolutely no problem to change the fans if you want less noise or higher performance.

FAN, Not heatsink. dumbass.
NoDisco
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August 19, 2013, 06:00:33 PM
 #6473

You are a pedantic bunch. I changed the post to say fans. My question about whether modifying the miner invalidates the guarantee and any situations it might not still stands to be answered.
ASIC-K
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August 19, 2013, 06:03:04 PM
 #6474

You are a pedantic bunch. I changed the post to say fans. My question about whether modifying the miner invalidates the guarantee still stands to be answered.

Does this really need to be asked? Just stop.
DPoS
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August 19, 2013, 06:05:52 PM
 #6475

You are a pedantic bunch. I changed the post to say fans. My question about whether modifying the miner invalidates the guarantee and any situations it might not still stands to be answered.

Whatever, you're probably on the fence to join a group buy on a Mercury


This is why those group buys or smaller units is terrible for customer service

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NoDisco
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August 19, 2013, 06:06:15 PM
 #6476

You are a pedantic bunch. I changed the post to say fans. My question about whether modifying the miner invalidates the guarantee still stands to be answered.

Does this really need to be asked? Just stop.
Yes it does.

If the heatsink on a hosted miner fails, I guess knc will replace it.

If the heatsink on a miner owned by a guy in the US fails, does he replace it himself and invalidate his guarantee? Which means if the miner entirely stops working 2 days later, he has a piece of garbage on his hands.

So that guy might also like to know how long it takes to be repaired if he has to send it back to Sweden, how long that round trip might take, so he can maintain his guarantee intact.

How is that not a very valid question for many customers?
Bitcoinorama
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August 19, 2013, 06:07:54 PM
 #6477

You are a pedantic bunch. I changed the post to say fans. My question about whether modifying the miner invalidates the guarantee still stands to be answered.

Does this really need to be asked? Just stop.



http://youtu.be/otCpCn0l4Wo

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Phoenix1969
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August 19, 2013, 06:09:05 PM
 #6478

Really, if you want it to look cool, and underperform, and possibly get it late, we could have bought "Ailenware" Worried about looks? Slap a sticker on the case.
The server rack mount is awesome....  fits right in!!! this is so cool.
Thanks KNC!!!


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CYPER
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August 19, 2013, 06:10:05 PM
 #6479

You are a pedantic bunch. I changed the post to say fans. My question about whether modifying the miner invalidates the guarantee still stands to be answered.

Does this really need to be asked? Just stop.
Yes it does.

If the heatsink on a hosted miner fails, I guess knc will replace it.

If the heatsink on a miner owned by a guy in the US fails, does he replace it himself and invalidate his guarantee? Which means if the miner entirely stops working 2 days later, he has a piece of garbage on his hands.

So that guy might also like to know how long it takes to be repaired if he has to send it back to Sweden, how long that round trip might take, so he can maintain his guarantee intact.

How is that not a very valid question for many customers?

You sound like a person who have no clue how a heatsink works.
Please explain how a heatsink fails exactly and what would be the consequences according to you.

If this post helped you and you feel generous you know what to do: 1P9tXFy9bVgzrfPGeV7F8np26ZtFdCCWvz
Phoenix1969
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August 19, 2013, 06:17:44 PM
 #6480

yeah, this should be good.... Keenan's a "GoodGuy" tho, he's just asking imho

So, am I mistaken in thinking we could slap H20 coolers on these?


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