Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[cryptodevil]

The notion of declaring that all sales are considered b2b is utterly false. A business does not get to dodge their consumer responsibilities simply by stating that they consider all their sales to be to businesses.

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

[poodle63]

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/09/05/for-kncminer-time-to-forget-selling-bitcoin-machines-to-at-home-miners/

Wonder how they will want to be remembered for their last home units ?. I had converted my Neptune order to Titan, such a bad decision in hindsight with their current attitudes.

Probably there will be a miracle and the Titan will be well above spec. We can only wish haha

No miracles, sorry.

Titan is modular just like Neptune. And that means they will reduce the number of modules until they deliver only the advertised specs and nothing extra. They'll probably overclock the hell out of the modules too just like the Neptune.

Hope not likely what you said, but according to your past article, I'll vote you, and say goodbye to my fiat and I'm also totally loose my believe on KNC, if the ending is just like what you said.

And another sorry thing is, could it be after funding success and they are decide to not delivery Tity and bonus miner to customer or even some one still on the waiting list, and easy way is to held refund? Because they have enough capital now, so just wait and see, hope this won't happening in near future.

[Searing]

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/09/05/for-kncminer-time-to-forget-selling-bitcoin-machines-to-at-home-miners/

Wonder how they will want to be remembered for their last home units ?. I had converted my Neptune order to Titan, such a bad decision in hindsight with their current attitudes.

Probably there will be a miracle and the Titan will be well above spec. We can only wish haha

No miracles, sorry.

Titan is modular just like Neptune. And that means they will reduce the number of modules until they deliver only the advertised specs and nothing extra. They'll probably overclock the hell out of the modules too just like the Neptune.

Hope not likely what you said, but according to your past article, I'll vote you, and say goodbye to my fiat and I'm also totally loose my believe on KNC, if the ending is just like what you said.

And another sorry thing is, could it be after funding success and they are decide to not delivery Tity and bonus miner to customer or even some one still on the waiting list, and easy way is to held refund? Because they have enough capital now, so just wait and see, hope this won't happening in near future.

what will be imho the 'final indignity' is when KNC announces after closing out its equipment making days..its new shiny TITAN giant mining Data Hall! I figure right around Dec/Jan that will be announced......the final slap to the face for those of us ..thru purchase of consumer products made them all those $$$ and control of all that bitcoin bandwith so to speak

power corrupts guess it is very true!

Searing

[l3sny]

Of course they will! This is a one of the most predatory form of capitalism I have ever seen in cryptos.

[BitcoinPappi]

For all who are seeking refunds on Titans. Someone posted the original ToS and Product page from 28th March 2014 in the KnC forum.

I can not find "Non-refundable" anywhere. Maybe this a lead. Just wanted to drop this here:

Any thoughts on this?

He's right. Nowhere on the buying page does it say no refund.

http://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware

The Terms and Conditions when people bought the Titans does not say the Titans are non-refundable.

http://web.archive.org/web/20131230125306/https://www.kncminer.com/pages/TandC

Many bought the product thinking they could get a refund, but KnCminer reneged.

Also noteworthy is that their terms and conditions does not say the Purchaser _is_ a business or defines them as a business, they say the Purchaser/ Consumer _uses_ it for business, but not that they _are_ a business. Therefore, their contract is between consumer and kncminer or someone/a consumer who uses it for business and kncminer, but nowhere does it say their contract is between a business and kncminer.

Just ask their new investors, they would know that KnCMiner got themselves in legal and financial woes even if they can't see it.

Edit: The ToS are from Dez. Anyone has the ToS saved around End of March 2014?

Thanks

[poodle63]

Oh man, bitmain L1 claim to support scryptN, oh holy sh#t, I'm screwed.

[murraypaul]

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.
If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

Can you provide any support in law for those claims?

[kingscrown]

omfg if bitmain is true.. they we all failed on titan buyings.

[cryptodevil]

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.
If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

Can you provide any support in law for those claims?

https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/overview

1. Overview

If you sell a customer a product or a service, you need to give them an invoice (bill) by law if both you and the customer are registered for VAT (a business to business transaction). An invoice is not the same as a receipt, which is an acknowledgement of payment.

[poodle63]

Screwed, even they ship, there is no chance ROi, ether they make a refund, I'm just like a fool lend my fiat to them with no interesting for months, this is such kind of lose lose situation, how could they treat us this way? What a kidding me~
 

[murraypaul]

If the invoice is addressed to a Limited Company (Ltd), it is a b2b sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.
If the invoice is addressed to an individual, it is a b2c sale with all applicable rights/laws related to such.

Can you provide any support in law for those claims?

https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/overview

1. Overview

If you sell a customer a product or a service, you need to give them an invoice (bill) by law if both you and the customer are registered for VAT (a business to business transaction). An invoice is not the same as a receipt, which is an acknowledgement of payment.

That isn't the same thing you said above.
A Ltd company doesn't have to be registered for VAT, and an individual could choose to register without incorporating.

[cryptodevil]

Ok, let's try this:

http://www.eu-consumer-law.org/consumerstudy_part3a_EN.pdf

consumer shall mean any natural person who
buys a product for purposes that do not fall
within the sphere of his commercial or
professional activity

The ASIC manufacturer does not get to decide how the product is going to be used by the individual who is buying it, therefore, they cannot define it's purchase as being for the purpose of commercial activity. (Professional meaning an activity derived from educational training).

[murraypaul]

Ok, let's try this:

http://www.eu-consumer-law.org/consumerstudy_part3a_EN.pdf

consumer shall mean any natural person who
buys a product for purposes that do not fall
within the sphere of his commercial or
professional activity

The ASIC manufacturer does not get to decide how the product is going to be used by the individual who is buying it, therefore, they cannot define it's purchase as being for the purpose of commercial activity. (Professional meaning an activity derived from educational training).

I suspect that KNC's response would be that these are machines who sole purpose is to create money by mining bitcoins.
They are being bought and run in the (mostly vain) expectation of making a profit.
That is a commercial activity.
The person buying has agreed that they are purchasing it for business reasons.
If I were to buy an ATM machine, for example, it is hard to see how I would successfully argue that it was for a consumer purpose.

I'm not saying that they are right, or that if you took them to court you couldn't win.
But they have a reasonable initial argument that is unlikely to be dismissed out of hand.
You would have to go to the hassle and cost of instructing Swedish solicitors to sue them.
They are banking on the fact that no one is going to both do that. They are probably right.

[s1gs3gv]

Given the price of this equipment, the number of customers and the potential aggregate loss, it is not unreasonable to believe that a Swedish Advocat could take an interest on a % of recovery basis.

I'm guessing the case would have to be built on deceptive advertising practices (Q2/Q3). They knew there was no way they could ship in Q2.

[tolip_wen]

Freaking illegal and unethical (In the Swedish business climate) as hell of KnC to declare the value of Neptunes to USD 1.000 when they´re bought for USD 9.995

You have it exactly backwards.
Based on earlier posts they are only doing that $1000 cost for the 'bonus' miners.
They should be valued @ 0 since # 1 was valued @ 9,995 when it should have been 4,9997 or some such.

You are suggesting the customers owe tax/customs on $20,000 for 2 miners.
The tax/customs on a free miner should be free.

If you are gonna behave like a sock puppet you could at least be accurate.
There are plenty of things to bitch about without making them up.


YMMV

[tolip_wen]

Freaking illegal and unethical (In the Swedish business climate) as hell of KnC to declare the value of Neptunes to USD 1.000 when they´re bought for USD 9.995

You have it exactly backwards.
Based on earlier posts they are only doing that $1000 cost for the 'bonus' miners.
They should be valued @ 0 since # 1 was valued @ 9,995 when it should have been 4,9997 or some such.

You are suggesting the customers owe tax/customs on $20,000 for 2 miners.
The tax/customs on a free miner should be free.

If you are gonna behave like a sock puppet you could at least be accurate.
There are plenty of things to bitch about without making them up.


YMMV

To ship a miner that cost USD 3.995 in their webstore at that moment and declare the value as USD 1.000 is illegal.
There´s no "price should be", ask Skatteverket.

If it is as you say, and they are now doing that, I retract reason for 'sock puppet' snipe.
They are doing something that benifits the customer at zero customer risk.
Can't have that...

They did declare some @ 10k and some bonus customers are not happy to have to pay any more.
Thats where my 4997 figure came from.


YMMV

[kingscrown]

any way to get refunds from Titans or not really? ;x

[Searing]

any way to get refunds from Titans or not really? ;x

you find a way let me know will also consider an "ocean's 11" plan ....it may be the only way to get any btc back from knc now

Searing

[forzendiablo]

KNC ended up as not pure scammers but.. ppl taking advantage of preordes and fucking up others in the end

[poodle63]

any way to get refunds from Titans or not really? ;x

According to contract, they Claim non refundable, there for we could asking for desirable bonus hashing power and funding success reward from them, which means we have the right to ask knc recalculate our beneficial, basically they have to meet our contract, and secondly they have to share success with us by reasonable partial percentage according to our early investment of Titan.

Business os taugh, but always a win win stratagy out there some where.