Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia.

[deisik]

Very important news. The rebels have captured a Su-25 bomber jet from the Ukrainian Air Force. Currently they are using the jet for trial flights. Soon we can expect them to be used against the Kiev forces trapped in various pockets (Amvroseevka, Dokuchaevsk, Mariupol.etc). At the same time, the news from Kiev is that they don't have many jets left after the rebels shot down dozens of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFYY9V1ZNWA

The rebells did capture a Su-25 earlier in the summer, and they likely did manage to fly it, but the video from the cockpit is fake. By the way, it is not a bomber (Su-24 is), it is an attack jet ("shturmovik")...

[Paya]

^^
Yes, fake. Original video from the cockpit was taken during the joint Russian-Chinese exercise "Aviadarts-2014", rest is some random stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyaQiMHnFj0

As far as I know, captured SU-25 is not operational.

[jurij.timofejev]

State of emergency is not exactly the same thing as the state of war. Your arguments look pale comparing to dramatical claims that Russia is invading Ukraine. If this was true, and Poroshenko and his gang are refusing to declare state of emergency as necessary step towards the full mobilization and declaration of war - then this is an act of high treason.

What do you mean with "state of emergency"? You are misunderstanding something. Give some link to law or at least publication, where is written about "state of emergency" AND mobilization!
I am using a juridical term "state of war" (вoeннoe пoлoжeниe) and my arguments ar 100% logical. Declaring state of war would be very unreasonable for Ukraine. Look for arguments in previous posts.

[chopstick]

Su-25's seem pretty easy to shoot down. I hope they don't try to use it over enemy territory.

[blablahblah]

To Understand Putin, Read Orwell

Anyone who wants to understand the current Russian position on Ukraine would do well to begin with George Orwell’s classic, 1984. The connections go deeper than the adjective “Orwellian”: the structure and the wisdom of the book are guides, often frighteningly precise ones, to current events.

The easiest way to begin, in light of the now entirely open Russian invasion of Ukraine, is with “War is Peace,” one of the slogans of the imagined empire in Orwell’s tale. After all, every attempt thus far at negotiation and cease-fire has been accompanied by a Russian escalation, to the point where we can be certain that this is not a coincidence. If Russian President Vladimir Putin meets with other leaders, we must simply expect that this is cover for the latest outrage, as with the entrance of Russian troops, armor and artillery during the recent talks in Minsk.

But we need to dig a bit deeper into the plot for the three concepts needed to understand this very strange war, in which Putin has radicalized Russian politics, destroyed a European peace order, challenged Europeans’ assumptions about their entire future — and even threatened nuclear war. Every reason proffered to explain a war that is pointless to the point of nihilism is obviously bogus or self-contradictory or both. To grasp this horrible event in which people are killing and dying for no discernible reason, we need to remember some key concepts from Orwell: Eurasia, doublethink and learning to love Big Brother.

In Orwell’s 1984, one of the world powers is called Eurasia. Interestingly enough, Eurasia is the name of Russia’s major foreign policy doctrine. In Orwell’s dystopia, Eurasia is a repressive, warmongering state that “comprises the whole of the northern part of the European and Asiatic land-mass, from Portugal to the Bering Strait.” In Russian foreign policy, Eurasia is a plan for the integration of all the lands from—you guessed it—Portugal to the Bering Strait. Orwell’s Eurasia practices “neo-Bolshevism”; Russia’s leading Eurasian theorist once called himself a “national Bolshevik.” This man, the influential Alexander Dugin, has long advocated that the Ukrainian state be destroyed, and has very recently proposed that Russia exterminate Ukrainians.

Orwell can help us understand what is happening to us as if we make a good-faith effort to use Russian media official sources to try to understand the world. Russian propaganda about Ukraine is today’s doublethink: it requires that people, as Orwell put it, “hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing both of them.” Russian propaganda daily pounds out two sides to every story, both of which are false, and each of which contradicts the other. Consider the propositions in italics below, all of which should by now, after eight months of repetition, sound familiar.

One the one hand, Russia must invade Ukraine because the Ukrainian state is repressive. (In fact, Ukraine is a democracy with free expression and is in every respect a freer country than Russia.) On the other hand, Russia must intervene because the Ukrainian state does not exist. (In fact, it is just as functional as the Russian state, except in the problematic spheres of war, intelligence and propaganda.)

On the one hand, Russia must invade Ukraine because Russians in Ukraine are forced to speak the Ukrainian language. (This is not the case: Russians in Ukraine are far more at liberty to speak as they please than are Russians in Russia. Most speakers of Russian in Ukraine are not actually Russian, in any case, any more than Americans who speak English are English.) On the other, there is no Ukrainian language. (There is. It has a proud literary tradition and is spoken by tens of millions of people.)

On the one hand, Ukrainians are all nationalists. (In fact, the Ukrainian far right polled at 2 percent in the last presidential elections, far less than in any other European country you care to name.) On the other hand, there is no Ukrainian nation. (In fact, opinion polls always show the contrary, even in the regions now under Russian occupation. Millions of Ukrainians were willing to take risks for their nation in the recent revolution, and thousands of volunteers have chosen to risk their lives on the front lines—far more than can be said of most people in the United States and elsewhere who regard themselves as patriots.)

Feeling dizzy yet? One more time: Russia is making war to save the world from fascism. (In fact, it is in Russia where the far right it exerts dictatorial power, the head of state enunciates a Hitlerian doctrine of invading another country to protect ethnic brethren. Russia’s political allies are Europe’s far right parties, including the fascists and neo-Nazis.) Meanwhile: fascism is good. (In Russia, Hitler is now being rehabilitated as a statesman, the Jews are being blamed for the Holocaust, gays are presented as an international conspiracy, Russian Nazis march on May Day and Russian Nazis in Ukraine are presented as heroes.)

Russian propaganda provides both sides of the story. We assume that the truth is in between. But no truth lies between propositions that are individually false and mutually contradictory. There is only insanity—or, as Orwell calls it, learning to love Big Brother, the novel’s distant, impersonal totalitarian leader. In 1984, one learns to love Big Brother by sacrificing the thing that one loves the most. In Ukraine, this would be statehood, as Putin has just demanded by endorsing the partition of the country and the formation of a Novorossiya (New Russia) in its southeast; in Europe, this would be peaceful integration, the achievement that Putin threatens; for all of us, reason.

All too often, we try to guess what is in Putin’s mind. We try to dwell in the mind of Big Brother rather than in the world of discoverable facts. But, fundamentally, who really cares what is in Putin’s mind? Does anyone really know, including Putin himself? Even if we did know what was in Putin’s mind today, is that a reliable guide to what will be in his mind tomorrow? And what chance would we have of defending freedom and decency if we begin from the brain of one individual? This is, after all, a man who intervenes in children’s cartoons and presides over television programs that raise the question of his possible divinity.

At the end of 1984, a member of Big Brother’s regime, in the midst of carrying out torture, makes a certain admission: “power is not a means, it is an end.” Whatever is in Putin’s mind, whatever he says and does, all he is really defending is his own power, something that will come to an end before very long in any event. Oppression in Russia, war in Ukraine and the destabilization of the West are grotesquely high prices to pay for one man’s preferences. Rather then beginning from these, rather than staring into the troubled eyes of the doublethinker, we had better think instead about what we value and what we can do to protect it. If Ukraine becomes Novorossiya, Europe becomes Eurasia, and the West collapses, it will not be because if Russia’s physical strength, but because of our mental weakness.

Timothy Snyder is Housum professor of History at Yale University and the author of Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/to-understand-putin-read-orwell-110551_Page2.html

Indeed, and the parallels don't end there. Here are a few more:

Constant attempts to rewrite history. These days, obviously nobody bothers to make amendments to archived newspaper articles, but the Internet is a rich playground where inconvenient truths can simply be deleted with minimal evidence that they ever existed in the first place.

Strict state control over the media to enable the above, including potentially all *.ru websites. Dissidents can easily be accused of having more than 3000 visitors.

Blocking dissident websites -- similar to banned books.

Past allies suddenly become enemies and vice versa, for no particular reason. Former USSR member states are now sworn enemies?

Former government workers mysteriously become self-destructive alcoholics.




You should probably start a new thread on this, and invite people to find other similarities. Otherwise, it will all get buried underneath more mountains of propaganda. They're not even bothering to respond to any posts, they just keep posting new stuff, ignoring everything that was previously written.

[Paya]

What do you mean with "state of emergency"? You are misunderstanding something. Give some link to law or at least publication, where is written about "state of emergency" AND mobilization!
I am using a juridical term "state of war" (вoeннoe пoлoжeниe) and my arguments ar 100% logical. Declaring state of war would be very unreasonable for Ukraine. Look for arguments in previous posts.

After skimming through Ukrainian Constitution I got this impression that the mobilization and lawful use of armed forces may occur only after the state of emergency (or state of war) had been declared. This subject is mentioned in article 85 (sections 9 and 31), and article 106 (section 20). Please feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted the data.

Thing is that Ukrainian army has pretty impressive human potential: up to one million reserve personnel might be called to arms, and how much are currently deployed on the east? 50.000? While the alleged Russian invasion is underway? Ukraine lost Crimea and pretty big chunk of the land in Donbass, but formally speaking situation is completely normal. Surely this doesn't sound right, don't you agree? Do you trust Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk?

[Watoshi-Dimobuto]

What do you mean with "state of emergency"? You are misunderstanding something. Give some link to law or at least publication, where is written about "state of emergency" AND mobilization!
I am using a juridical term "state of war" (вoeннoe пoлoжeниe) and my arguments ar 100% logical. Declaring state of war would be very unreasonable for Ukraine. Look for arguments in previous posts.

After skimming through Ukrainian Constitution I got this impression that the mobilization and lawful use of armed forces may occur only after the state of emergency (or state of war) had been declared. This subject is mentioned in article 85 (sections 9 and 31), and article 106 (section 20). Please feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted the data.

Thing is that Ukrainian army has pretty impressive human potential: up to one million reserve personnel might be called to arms, and how much are currently deployed on the east? 50.000? While the alleged Russian invasion is underway? Ukraine lost Crimea and pretty big chunk of the land in Donbass, but formally speaking situation is completely normal. Surely this doesn't sound right, don't you agree? Do you trust Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk?

Maybe with 1 million soldiers they can defeat the Russians.

[blablahblah]

Circle jerk

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=circle+jerk

3.) When a bunch of blowhards - usually politicians - get together for a debate but usually end up agreeing with each other's viewpoints to the point of redundancy, stroking each other's egos as if they were extensions of their genitals (ergo, the mastubatory insinuation). Basically, it's what happens when the choir preaches to itself.

[Paya]

Maybe with 1 million soldiers they can defeat the Russians.

There are no Russians. Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk know this very well. They have problem with their own citizens - not only with those who decided to distance themselves from Kiev's new official politics, but also with those seemingly loyal.

Which brings me to my point: Ukrainian oligarchs don't dare to declare state of emergency and full mobilization because they are scared of their own people and their possible reaction much more than they are scared of the rebellion in Donbass. Nation doesn't want war. People are angry. Beside that, their personal business affairs and grip on what's being left of Ukrainian economy aren't going very well with the state of emergency and everything it implies. That's why oligarchs are mostly relying on their own paramilitary (so called "volunteer batallions") - this is their private war above anything else. And since they are failing in it, they would be more than happy if someone else (read: NATO) takes over from here.

Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk are not stupid. But this "little" game they are playing is sinister.

[jurij.timofejev]

What do you mean with "state of emergency"? You are misunderstanding something. Give some link to law or at least publication, where is written about "state of emergency" AND mobilization!
I am using a juridical term "state of war" (вoeннoe пoлoжeниe) and my arguments ar 100% logical. Declaring state of war would be very unreasonable for Ukraine. Look for arguments in previous posts.

After skimming through Ukrainian Constitution I got this impression that the mobilization and lawful use of armed forces may occur only after the state of emergency (or state of war) had been declared. This subject is mentioned in article 85 (sections 9 and 31), and article 106 (section 20). Please feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted the data.

Thing is that Ukrainian army has pretty impressive human potential: up to one million reserve personnel might be called to arms, and how much are currently deployed on the east? 50.000? While the alleged Russian invasion is underway? Ukraine lost Crimea and pretty big chunk of the land in Donbass, but formally speaking situation is completely normal. Surely this doesn't sound right, don't you agree? Do you trust Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk?

We are talking about the same thing. Take a look on all translations:
"ввeдeння вoєннoгo чи нaдзвичaйнoгo cтaнy" - http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/254%D0%BA/96-%D0%B2%D1%80/page2
"ввeдeнии вoeннoгo или чpeзвычaйнoгo пoлoжeния" - http://meget.kiev.ua/zakon/konstitutsia-ukraini/razdel-4/
"state of martial law or of emergency" - http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2004

By the way "B cлyчae пpoвaлa миpнoгo плaнa, Typчинoв бyдeт иницииpoвaть вoeннoe пoлoжeниe"
http://www.unian.net/politics/959153-v-sluchae-provala-mirnogo-plana-turchinov-budet-initsiirovat-voennoe-polojenie-smi.html
That means, that in case of failure of peace plan, Turchinov will initiate martial law.. There are thousands of Russian soldiers and hundreds of Russian army armored vehicles in Ukraine. It is too obvious for all world already.

About human potential...
You are right. The potential is impressive, but during last years (during time of Janukovich), the army was catastrophically weakened - the biggest part of armored vehicles is out of order, or divided into parts and sold out. The Army of Russia is more than 6 time bigger and much better equipped. What a soldier with machine gun can do against Smerch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtFCsWeO1Lc) and hundreds of tanks?

One country occupies part of another country, killing people at their homeland and you call it "completely normal"?
Why shouldn't we trust Poroshenko? He is president for a very short time.. Let him work! He looks Ok to me. Yatsenyuk... well, he is rather emotional, and not as strong personality as Poroshenko.

[bryant.coleman]

Maybe with 1 million soldiers they can defeat the Russians.

First of all there are no Russians out there. The vast majority of the Donbass rebels are ethnic Ukrainians. And secondly, from where they are going to get 1 million soldiers? Right now the number of active soldiers serving with Kiev is somewhere around 40,000 - 45,000. And of that number, a large part is from provinces such as Trans-Carpathia and Odessa and are not willing to fight the rebels.

[Paya]

One country occupies part of another country, killing people at their homeland and you call it "completely normal"?

Nothing in Ukraine is normal these days, starting from revolutionary government in Kiev which is waging war against their own citizens who refused to accept Maidan's heritage. Please pay attention to what I wrote. I said that formally (legally) situation is normal because no state of emergency has been declared.

[deisik]

Maybe with 1 million soldiers they can defeat the Russians.

First of all there are no Russians out there. The vast majority of the Donbass rebels are ethnic Ukrainians. And secondly, from where they are going to get 1 million soldiers? Right now the number of active soldiers serving with Kiev is somewhere around 40,000 - 45,000. And of that number, a large part is from provinces such as Trans-Carpathia and Odessa and are not willing to fight the rebels.

I've got tired of correcting the info in your posts, lol. The Armed Forces of Ukraine (the official name for the Ukrainian army) have around 130,000 of active personnel. The number you gave (40,000-45,000 men) is the manpower currently employed in military operations in the Donbass area...

[bryant.coleman]

I've got tired of correcting the info in your posts, lol. The Armed Forces of Ukraine (the official name for the Ukrainian army) have around 130,000 of active personnel. The number you gave (40,000-45,000 men) is the manpower currently employed in military operations in the Donbass area...

Hmm... I am not quite sure about that. The strength was 130,000 before the operations began in Donbass. During these operations as much as 30,000 were made inactive (KIA, WIA & POW). Also, a large part of this 130,000 figure is composed of border guards, who can't be sent to the front-lines. Another 15,000 is from the Navy, who have no role in the Donbass.

[deisik]

I've got tired of correcting the info in your posts, lol. The Armed Forces of Ukraine (the official name for the Ukrainian army) have around 130,000 of active personnel. The number you gave (40,000-45,000 men) is the manpower currently employed in military operations in the Donbass area...

Hmm... I am not quite sure about that. The strength was 130,000 before the operations began in Donbass. During these operations as much as 30,000 were made inactive (KIA, WIA & POW). Also, a large part of this 130,000 figure is composed of border guards, who can't be sent to the front-lines. Another 15,000 is from the Navy, who have no role in the Donbass.

Even if some part of the border guards (which all-in-all have around 45,000 men) can be sent to the front lines, they are still not part of the Ukrainian army (that is they shouldn't be included into your "number of active soldiers serving with Kiev"). Besides that, the border guards are also partaking in military operations in Donbass, and I can't be sure that this number is relatively small...

But if we do count them (which is logical), then the total manpower under the Kiev command should be increased by this figure

[bryant.coleman]

According to the pro-Kiev source liveuamap.com, the Kiev forces have withdrawn from Debaltsevo. This is a very strategic location, as most of the artillery shelling aimed at the residential areas in Donetsk were conducted form here.

Meanwhile, there is bad news for the NAF. It seems that the Donetsk Airport is still not completely cleared of the Kiev forces. 

[Paya]

Rebel multiple rocket launchers firing in the vicinity of Mariupol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7k6bHCoBcw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTa3ATRxMq0

[Pagan]

Near Mariupol the 9th battalion of a brigade of the Russian army from Nizhni-Novgorod was destroyed completely by the Ukrainian air force. No wonder Putin wants a no-fly-agreement as part of the truce.



http://rusjev.net/2014/09/04/pod-mariupolem-segodnya-sgorela-rossiyskaya-tankovaya-rota/

[Pagan]

Rebel multiple rocket launchers firing in the vicinity of Mariupol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7k6bHCoBcw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTa3ATRxMq0

^ proof of ruSSian war crimes against civilian Ukrainians

[Pagan]

And this is the response of the population of Mariupol - in short and in Russian: ПTH-ПHX





Житeли Mapиyпoля вышли ceгoдня нa yлицы гopoдa в oтвeт нa aтaкy poccийcкиx вoйcк

https://twitter.com/euromaidan/status/507539347080769536/photo/1   #‎StopRussianAggression‬ ‪#‎UkraineUnderAttack‬