iCEBREAKER
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Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
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September 26, 2015, 12:38:18 AM |
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So could you give some links to exchanges or sites that offer this? They would be useful examples of problems associated with non-fungibility of bitcoin.
smooth already did. http://joinmarket.org/ |
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Monero
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| "The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect." Adam Back 2014
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smooth (OP)
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Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
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September 26, 2015, 12:50:56 AM |
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Wow, that's adorable.  Here, use this to turn your bad bitcoins into good bitcoins   |
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smooth (OP)
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Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
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September 26, 2015, 12:54:40 AM |
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iCEBREAKER
Legendary
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Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
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September 26, 2015, 12:57:55 AM |
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Wow, that's adorable. Here, use this to turn your bad bitcoins into good bitcoins  Nom nom, i luff this thred sew mush! <3 <3 <3 |
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Monero
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| "The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect." Adam Back 2014
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owm123
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September 26, 2015, 01:02:56 AM |
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wpalczynski
Legendary
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Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
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September 26, 2015, 01:15:11 AM |
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Wow, that's adorable. Here, use this to turn your bad bitcoins into good bitcoins Nom nom, i luff this thred sew mush! <3 <3 <3 lmfao rofl |
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kazuki49
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September 26, 2015, 02:28:51 AM |
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Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?
Nope. Why? See following point. They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.
You are forced by law to accept all notes. Otherwise it would break fungibility. This has been the case all over the world in various financial systems, since this famous case: http://www.paybits.net/blog/why-fungibility-matters/Fungibility of money can be enforced by law only in a centralized monetary system. Bitcoin isn't centralized, there is nobody enforcing fungibility by law. It's possible for everyone to define their own rules, analyse and trace everything they wish, point the fingers to coins, transactions and merchants accepting or refusing them. Thus, in a decentralized monetary system the only way to have fungibility is through privacy. (It applies to the physical world as well: if all gold historical ownership was known to everyone - with a simple internet connection! - gold fungibility would be broken instantly. Its fungibility comes from that it doesn't convey its own history with itself). See, the problem with your logic, is that you're only looking at it one way. There's no central authority to enforce laws saying "you must accept all bitcoins". Similarly, there is no central authority saying "You can't accept these bitcoins". How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize. Coinbase closing accounts because it notices people gamble isn't worrying to you? Nope, and I can assure you that the VAST majority of the world doesn't care either. It doesn't matter whether it's "right" to care or not; what matters is whether people ACTUALLY cares. You don't get it, you think every player is good, some WILL enforce all kinds of weird blacklists and since there is no law (yet) you can't do anything about it, thats where live the danger, bitcoin has no future as transfer of wealth. boom |
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smoothie
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Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
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September 26, 2015, 03:57:40 AM |
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I honestly think it is a pretty big issue. Of course overall it isn't wide spread but it could get that way. People will lose faith if they can't spend bitcoins they bought because of blacklists. |
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| . ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM My PGP fingerprint is A764D833. History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
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Gillette
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September 26, 2015, 08:35:23 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? |
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LucyLovesCrypto
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September 26, 2015, 08:38:14 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? The laws in every country are different and will impact the decisions of companies like Bitpay. If enough companies start to blacklist BTC then the acceleration to alternatives such as Monero will accelerate |
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LucyLovesCrypto
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September 26, 2015, 08:40:50 AM |
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This is good news for Monero. Fungibility matters! Thanks for the chess link for the GM game! I joined both that and the new CryptoNote coin chess game against BBR |
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Gillette
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September 26, 2015, 08:44:42 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? The laws in every country are different and will impact the decisions of companies like Bitpay. If enough companies start to blacklist BTC then the acceleration to alternatives such as Monero will accelerate In the field of AML/KYC/Anti-terrorism all countries laws are relatively similar, so don`t expect that big companies will invest in stealth digital currencies. So stealth currencies will only be used in dark markets which is a very limited frame of usage. |
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newb4now
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September 26, 2015, 08:55:33 AM |
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The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.
Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.
Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time? Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company. In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator". Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control. Not every country will do this. Some countries that care about privacy (like Switzerland or something) might go the opposite way and embrace something like Monero in an attempt to attract privacy focused businesses (like shapeshift) who are seeking a new home. In the future people may immigrate to new countries for privacy reasons. |
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Gillette
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September 26, 2015, 09:02:22 AM |
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The purpose of xmr is to protect one's privacy. This is at least my understanding. I dont view monero as a bitcoin killer or even a litecoin killer. Its there with one main purpose, to ensure everone a right to privacy. Not everyone cares about privacy. So bitcoin is not going anywhere anytime soon. But there are people that value their privacy. For them monero is a perfect solution.
Also, there is no reason to use monero for tax evasion, or to think about it as being desing for this purpose. In monero you have view keys, to disclose the transactions when needed. So a merchant or a person can keep their transactions privet from other merchants or people, but be fully transparent to tax office to which he/she can provide its view keys.
Companies and governments determine what money they accept, and what company or government is going to want a money that links them to all their activities for all time? Yes, companies and governments decide, and they will not allow anonymous or even psedoanynomouse cruptocurrency to be "officially" used which is not controlled by government/company. In Russia, for example, they already want to launch their own cyrpto, approved by government. The "BitRuble will not be pseudo-anonymous like bitcoin due to the aforementioned Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Know-Your-Customer (KYC) policies pursued by the regulator". Its super easy for government to force ppl to use their 'own' cyryptocurrency. Its enough that they will pass laws requiring merchants to accept NSAcoin or whatever coin (or employers to pay salaries with such a coin) that the government can track and control. Not every country will do this. Some countries that care about privacy (like Switzerland or something) might go the opposite way and embrace something like Monero in an attempt to attract privacy focused businesses (like shapeshift) who are seeking a new home. In the future people may immigrate to new countries for privacy reasons. Under the USA and EU pressure Switzerland has modified its legislation. They offer no more numbered accounts and they exchange client datum with USA and other countries. Other offshore countries also begin accepting AEOI rules under USA pressure. |
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wpalczynski
Legendary
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Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
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September 26, 2015, 10:22:07 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? Can you substantiate that claim? |
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smooth (OP)
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Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
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September 26, 2015, 10:30:28 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? Can you substantiate that claim? Read like a hypothetical to me. |
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Gillette
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September 26, 2015, 10:35:18 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? Can you substantiate that claim? Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes  For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased. |
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XMRpromotions
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September 26, 2015, 10:42:17 AM |
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If such legit merchant processors as Bitpay and Coinbase reject dirty BTC, why do you think any crypto transaction processor will accept XMR payments if everyone knows that XMR is widely used for dark deals? Can you substantiate that claim? Anon coins are created for dark markets. Believe me no one will use XMR which does not even have a direct fiat-xmr exchange for legal purposes For legal activity there is BTC which can be very easily purchased. Privacy has tons of benefits not relating to dark markets at all. Would you publish your bank account balance, payroll and supplier payment data on a transparent blockchain for all your competitors to see? The answer should be obvious |
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