Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[timmmers]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

Not to sound pedantic. But to be exact the summer ends on 21th September  +-12hrs in the northern hemisphere

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3043021#msg3043021

That's not pedantic,  it's not the 21th, it's the 21st ...that's pedantic 

[1714095889]

1714095889

[1714095889]

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[timmmers]

So. If I buy a Jupiter now and mine just ONE BTC with it and BTC rises to 10k I won't be in profit?

Not if you paid with 70 bitcoins.  It would mean you lost $690,000

If I bought a jupiter NOW (which is a fucking long way from 700k because NOW BTC are more like 140 dollars NOW), then they RISE to 10k dollars each (which a shitload higher than their 140 dollar current value) and I managed to mine just one BTC when I got the fucker..assuming I didn't leave it sitting in it's box for years ...I'd be not only in profit but better at maths and comprehending english than some people here.

I made the numbers extreme and round to illustrate a point so it was easy to understand. Waste of time.

[DPoS]

Not sure if the trolls fed on this nugget yet: (from their update FAQ)



Why are you selling the Miners and don’t mine yourself (will you use the miners for mining yourself)?

    We are mining ourselves, but we believe in the bitcoin project and a diversified market is the best for all parties. We will continue to mine but we do not believe in a monopoly of miners. We will not mine with more than 5% of the hash rate we sell, and we will never mine with customer hardware.

[Xialla]

SEPTEMBER.)

[markm]

Check out how many coiledcoins and geistgeld a Jupiter would merged-mine per day.

Where you going to buy that many to hold instead of mining them?

You already missed out on merged mining lots of i0coin and groupcoin per day at low difficulty, where did you buy those instead of mining them?

-MarkM-

[keyzersoze]

So. If I buy a Jupiter now and mine just ONE BTC with it and BTC rises to 10k I won't be in profit?

Not if you paid with 70 bitcoins.  It would mean you lost $690,000

If I bought a jupiter NOW (which is a fucking long way from 700k because NOW BTC are more like 140 dollars NOW), then they RISE to 10k dollars each (which a shitload higher than their 140 dollar current value) and I managed to mine just one BTC when I got the fucker..assuming I didn't leave it sitting in it's box for years ...I'd be not only in profit but better at maths and comprehending english than some people here.

I made the numbers extreme and round to illustrate a point so it was easy to understand. Waste of time.

I think hes saying that if you kept the 70 bitcoins, and never bought a jupiter, then youd have 700000 $ once the bitcoin hits 10k$. If however you manage to mine more bitcoins than you paid for it in btc. Then buying the miner would have been the better desicion, rather than just holding on to the bitcoins.
Say you manage to mine 100 btc, Thats 1000000 $. Anything under 70 btc, and youd have been better of keeping the coin instead of buying the miner.

[alfabitcoin]

So. If I buy a Jupiter now and mine just ONE BTC with it and BTC rises to 10k I won't be in profit?

Not if you paid with 70 bitcoins.  It would mean you lost $690,000

If I bought a jupiter NOW (which is a fucking long way from 700k because NOW BTC are more like 140 dollars NOW), then they RISE to 10k dollars each (which a shitload higher than their 140 dollar current value) and I managed to mine just one BTC when I got the fucker..assuming I didn't leave it sitting in it's box for years ...I'd be not only in profit but better at maths and comprehending english than some people here.

I made the numbers extreme and round to illustrate a point so it was easy to understand. Waste of time.

You dont see the point. Why to mine one btc with 8000$ hardware when using the same logic you can buy btc at140? There is a diference what we try to explain.

[OmegaNemesis28]

With the way the difficulty is raising, Im kind of getting a bit flaky on my Mercury preorder. I finally got my god damn BFL Single and Im not feeling it. Maybe I'll sell the Single and just wait for the Mercury....

[keyzersoze]

So. If I buy a Jupiter now and mine just ONE BTC with it and BTC rises to 10k I won't be in profit?

Not if you paid with 70 bitcoins.  It would mean you lost $690,000

If I bought a jupiter NOW (which is a fucking long way from 700k because NOW BTC are more like 140 dollars NOW), then they RISE to 10k dollars each (which a shitload higher than their 140 dollar current value) and I managed to mine just one BTC when I got the fucker..assuming I didn't leave it sitting in it's box for years ...I'd be not only in profit but better at maths and comprehending english than some people here.

I made the numbers extreme and round to illustrate a point so it was easy to understand. Waste of time.

I think hes saying that if you kept the 70 bitcoins, and never bought a jupiter, then youd have 700000 $ once the bitcoin hits 10k$. If however you manage to mine more bitcoins than you paid for it in btc. Then buing the miner would have been the better desicion, rather than just holding on to the bitcoins.

I don't buy miners in BTC, I buy them in USD. If I make more USD than I paid I have a positive return.

For a person interested in mining as a hobby, and a chance of being apart of this great experiment we call bitcoin, thats all the logic you need. But for someone whos looking att the bottom line and maximizing his profits.... not so much im afraid.

[Xialla]

I don't buy miners in BTC, I buy them in USD. If I make more USD than I paid I have a positive return.

..when KNC holds you funds because of preorder (free loan), rate was about 70$/BTC. btw if you want to count break-even, you must exchange price of miners to BTC and then wait, if you will mine at least same amount.

you can't mix apples and oranges, because miner is producing bitcoins, not dollars..

[Syke]

I don't buy miners in BTC, I buy them in USD. If I make more USD than I paid I have a positive return.

But you'll have more USD if you just buy the BTC and hold them. Why do you want less USD?

[amencon]

So. If I buy a Jupiter now and mine just ONE BTC with it and BTC rises to 10k I won't be in profit?

Not if you paid with 70 bitcoins.  It would mean you lost $690,000

If I bought a jupiter NOW (which is a fucking long way from 700k because NOW BTC are more like 140 dollars NOW), then they RISE to 10k dollars each (which a shitload higher than their 140 dollar current value) and I managed to mine just one BTC when I got the fucker..assuming I didn't leave it sitting in it's box for years ...I'd be not only in profit but better at maths and comprehending english than some people here.

I made the numbers extreme and round to illustrate a point so it was easy to understand. Waste of time.

I think hes saying that if you kept the 70 bitcoins, and never bought a jupiter, then youd have 700000 $ once the bitcoin hits 10k$. If however you manage to mine more bitcoins than you paid for it in btc. Then buing the miner would have been the better desicion, rather than just holding on to the bitcoins.

I don't buy miners in BTC, I buy them in USD. If I make more USD than I paid I have a positive return.

You can also look at it as you bought the BTC that comes out of a miner with USD, and in the above example you'd have done better to buy the BTC directly with that same USD.  The method you've chosen to invest in BTC would still be a bad one even though your decision to invest in BTC (speculative currency investment decision separate to the decision of how best to obtain said BTC) would have been a good one.

I like the network to be secure so if any missing BTC from miner purchase you make vs buying the BTC outright is an acceptable cost for adding to the global hashrate then I commend you for your monetary sacrifice for the greater good.

[jspielberg]

I don't buy miners in BTC, I buy them in USD. If I make more USD than I paid I have a positive return.

But you'll have more USD if you just buy the BTC and hold them. Why do you want less USD?

Don't waste your time Syke.  He is locked into a fiat mind-set, and doesn't understand that a miner's purpose is to generate more BTC than it cost in BTC... otherwise, just buy the BTC directly and come out way ahead.

[Biomech]

Why even try to reason with a troll?  They're like Democrats - they don't let inconveinient things like facts interfere with their vision of reality...

On the other hand, as we all know Republicans are widely known for their rationality.

I consider it a good day when I manage to piss off a Democrat and a Republican in the same sentence. It usually involves logic

Your foto reminds me of Al Jourgensen  

I really should know that name. But it's not coming to me Several people have told me I look like Tommy Shaw, and I'm good with that! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jourgensen

pfft. I knew I should have known the name. I love the song "Stigmata". See what happens when you post in your sleep?

[Biomech]

...
That's not merely ROI, which is in fact ANY income generated, it's a profit ABOVE breakeven, even given the cost of electricity. That time frame of breakeven and positive ROI is an accountant's wet dream, not a pessimistic outlook. Three months to see a profit above breakeven on expensive equipment is stupendous. You aren't merely spreading FUD here, you are showing a complete lack of any sort of business sense. ...

First, a simple ROI formula: ROI = (Gains – Cost)/Cost.  That's the definition.  The term is otherwise defined by context.  When ROI is given in dollars instead of percentage or fraction, assume ROI = Gains - Cost.

Breakeven in three month is great for investments which do not depreciate over time, or depreciate slowly.
Mining gear depreciates quickly.  
Its profitability over time also drops at an exponential rate.  If its costs are not completely recouped within three months, it is unlikely that the costs will ever be recouped.

Example for the math-challenged:

If you slaughter a cow, and take the beef to the market, most of your profits will happen in the first few hours.  At the end of the day, the meat will be suitable only for dogs, and profits will be insignificant.  Do not expect any more profits the following day, the day after that, or the day after that day -- your meat is rotten, no moar monyz 4 U.

If you do not make ROI on your slaughtered cow in the first day, you don't make ROI in a month, two months, or even a year.  

Math.

And for the meat-challanged: If you slaughter a cow, the meat gains in worth over time, since beef gains worth if it is well hung. Some even say it is best if it is hung over a longer period.  Like with bitcoins

Eww?
The best way to make beef tender?  Beat your meat.

Actually, part of the grading process is how long it was aged. Fresh slaughtered beef is much less tender and more bland tasting than aged beef. The longer it's aged, the higher the grade. I actually liked your analogy, though, just because I have worked with cattle (the bovine sort as opposed to the the two legged sort) and quickly came to realize that most of a cow's value is after it's dead That being said, it's unlikely that these devices will stop working that quickly. If they make breakeven, then the diff would have to continue to skyrocket for well over a year even by that ridiculous 66 percent per month increase before the electrical cost outstripped the income to a detrimental degree. And that also assumes that bitcoiin remains stable or declines in value. Over the term we have been able to observe, neither condition seems likely.

[Phoenix1969]

It's been a long road, but it looks like we're almost there!

[klee]

Check out how many coiledcoins and geistgeld a Jupiter would merged-mine per day.

Where you going to buy that many to hold instead of mining them?

You already missed out on merged mining lots of i0coin and groupcoin per day at low difficulty, where did you buy those instead of mining them?

-MarkM-

I can mine them with erupters!

[arousedrhino]

I don't buy miners in BTC, I buy them in USD. If I make more USD than I paid I have a positive return.

But you'll have more USD if you just buy the BTC and hold them. Why do you want less USD?

But you can buy the miner with a credit card so you get a cashback kickback and you are not directly buying btc through your bank sccount, lets face it those acccounts are watched.

[timmmers]

This thread is about KnC miners so why even mention buying BTC vs mining, particularly when trading BTC with leverage makes much more sense if that's the game you're into?

As was already mentioned sensibly, apples vs oranges. Personally I'll mine BTC for the future and trade the hell out them for profit separately with flat (which in the last few days has been pretty wonderful and much more sun than watching a miner sitting humming away ) .

[FeedbackLoop]

Risking flak, an analysis I've been doing is how badly the thing is going for me compared with buying BTC Jun the 3rd when I placed my order. Putting european average VAT, Jun 3 exchange rate from mtgox (for buy BTC VS buy miner scenario) and present difficulty from the 700+ TH/s:

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/d0a309b862

It would look worse with bitstamp or so exchange rate and this is with 100% uptime.

I really hope KNC will over deliver. Right now we are still exposed to continued difficulty increase risks. Risking further flak (sorry, this is real money for me and I really need to re-asses all possibilities) can anyone of the refunders please post how fast they got their refund?